Assassin Spells Feedback

[Pav]

After more than a bit of time spent with the class, I really think its 3rd level spells could use a change. While Spider Poison and Poison are neat abilities for flavor and certainly fit the class, they are useless. The only time I ever bothered using either was for testing, and the results then were simply that these spells are not worth my time against any foe. The DCs are terrible, for a class that relies on two main stats, and the effects, even in the unlikely event something/someone fails the DC, are really not worth the action cycle you spent. Assassins already get Heart Ripper to simulate their ability and tendency toward murder. The limited spell selection and spell casts make it a no brainer, but for balance sakes, there should be a sacrifice when playing this PrC and casting a specific spell. Your options should dwindle every time you do, and at the moment, 3rd level spells are just four casts of Insight, or Deep Slumber for teh lulz.

I propose to switch them out for two other spells that while, not as flavorful for the class, they fit just the same. Expeditious Retreat and See Invisibility. At current, Assassins are the only ones capable of only casting Invisibility but not something that detects it. Putting this spell at the 3rd level will make sure there's a long time before someone can cast it (Level 6 Assassin if you don't have 16 INT, and if you do, Level 5 Assassin), while also improving quality of life. As for Expeditious Retreat, the name of the spell illustrates the point of it being available to the class. None of the benefits of an actual 3rd level spell like Haste, but simply a tool for an Assassin to quickly escape the scene of a failed or successful job.

In addition, fixing Arcane Spell Failure on the spells would be welcome (currently doesn't apply, hasn't happened once even when in chainmail and a tower shield for testing purposes), as well as correcting Caster Level scaling. Durations for spells remain innate, but the DCs scale. This becomes annoying, often.

Here's the end of my sort of short and sort of sweet review, thanks for reading chums.

[Iluvatar / Madness]

Even if I understand that the current assassin spell aren't of much use, replacing them with complete magical abilities doesn't make any sense to me. Assassin aren't necessary spell caster at base. Those two poison things makes much sense for an assassin though. At least, that's my opinion. I think we shouldn't give more arcane like abilities to assassin.

A more viable option would be to check if these abilities can be made slightly stronger. But, imo. assassin gets a lot of other advantage and I don't think that those two spells needs to be made stronger. They weren't a game changer before and assassin were still good. I think those spell should remain like this. I never played an assassin, but I have the feeling it's a sort of well balanced class.

[Pav]

Even if I understand that the current assassin spell aren't of much use, replacing them with complete magical abilities doesn't make any sense to me. Assassin aren't necessary spell caster at base. Those two poison things makes much sense for an assassin though. At least, that's my opinion. I think we shouldn't give more arcane like abilities to assassin.

A more viable option would be to check if these abilities can be made slightly stronger. But, imo. assassin gets a lot of other advantage and I don't think that those two spells needs to be made stronger. They weren't a game changer before and assassin were still good. I think those spell should remain like this. I never played an assassin, but I have the feeling it's a sort of well balanced class.

Except they are spells, not abilities, and there are plenty of arcane spells in the selection. Cats Grace, Fox Cunning, Darkness, both forms of Invisibility? Ultravision, Knock, True strike? Do I need to pull up the entire list?
All of their spells but Heart Ripper and both Poisons are shared with other classes, and it is specifically said that an Assassin's spells are arcane.

It's a balanced class, but its 3rd circle of spells is not. It is useless in the day to day.

[Cursed Ink]

Yes. Correct.

[DrXavierTColtrane]

I actually agree with both arguments. It's weird to me that assassins have any arcane abilities--so that I'd be reluctant to increase the slippery slope--but if assassins are going to have them, I don't think the two suggested spells are OP at all.

[Pav]

I actually agree with both arguments. It's weird to me that assassins have any arcane abilities--

Off the d20srd page for assassins, found here:

"Spells
Beginning at 1st level, an assassin gains the ability to cast a number of arcane spells."

[Nemesis 24]

I'm inclined to agree with Pav here as well, to be honest.  Though only somewhat.  The two spells of poison seem a touch superfluous at the moment, one of them could be likely removed and replaced with one of the spells Pav has suggested, otherwise they can be added entirely to the list provided.

Setting some of these spells at a higher level - Expeditious retreat as a level 3 spell for example - purely creates a higher level of flexibility in the class.  See invisibility 'would' be an excellent addition, but it is also quite potent with proper application.  The fact it is available as a potion makes me seesaw a bit, but at the same time its being applied at an inherently higher casting slot. 

Otherwise, I'd see the spells applied at the slot level they currently occupy.  The counter to this (and I hope Pav will forgive me for mentioning it) will be the assassin taking metamagic feats to put lvl 2 spells in the lvl 3 slot, such as extend.  This would make the level 3 spell slots useful again, but not for the spells that they actually have available without metamagic.

That said, the arcane spell failure absolutely needs to be applied first, I think!

[DrXavierTColtrane]

I actually agree with both arguments. It's weird to me that assassins have any arcane abilities--

Off the d20srd page for assassins, found here:

"Spells
Beginning at 1st level, an assassin gains the ability to cast a number of arcane spells."

I'm not disputing that fact; I'm saying it's an odd feature of the class.

[Pav]

Otherwise, I'd see the spells applied at the slot level they currently occupy.  The counter to this (and I hope Pav will forgive me for mentioning it) will be the assassin taking metamagic feats to put lvl 2 spells in the lvl 3 slot, such as extend.  This would make the level 3 spell slots useful again, but not for the spells that they actually have available without metamagic.

This could be good, however, by way of how the Assassin spellslots are currently designed, they would have to replace other spells that are too crucial to the class. I would see Ghostly Visage removed from the 1st spell level, if I'm honest, but it's a useful little spell for the lowbie assassin.

On the other hand, I believe that mechanically, these 'spells' still function on the brink between actual spell and class ability by way of their behavior, and I don't believe implementing metamagics is possible.

I actually agree with both arguments. It's weird to me that assassins have any arcane abilities--

Off the d20srd page for assassins, found here:

"Spells
Beginning at 1st level, an assassin gains the ability to cast a number of arcane spells."

I'm not disputing that fact; I'm saying it's an odd feature of the class.

I don't disagree that it is, but that is the case in 3.5 D&D, and that is our source for new implementation and in some cases balance.

[Iluvatar / Madness]

Even if certain spell may be useless, I do not see any advantage in making change to an already balanced class. It would only make it unbalanced. Many prc already unbalanced. I think we should focus on balancing those before making changes those that are alrady fine.

Having a balanced class unfortunately means that some if its spell/abilities wont be of much use. If all assassins spell/abilities were useful it would quickly become too powerful.


(Sorry for bad typo, I m on my phone )

[Pav]

Having a balanced class unfortunately means that some if its spell/abilities wont be of much use. If all assassins spell/abilities were useful it would quickly become too powerful.

It seems to me that my point hasn't been illustrated clearly enough, so I'll go back and bring back something I said.

The limited spell selection and spell casts make it a no brainer, but for balance sakes, there should be a sacrifice when playing this PrC and casting a specific spell. Your options should dwindle every time you do, and at the moment, 3rd level spells are just four casts of Insight, or Deep Slumber for teh lulz.

At present, every spell in every spell level is useful, except for the two I am asking to have replaced. Why am I asking for them to be replaced? So that the 3rd spell level could actually have variety and decision making involved, and so that you would use more than one of the spells every rest cycle - so that there would be some management involved every time you cast a spell, and your options for the next few rounds turn slimmer and slimmer. Right now, I actually have to think of which spells I want to use at the moment with the 1st, 2nd, and 4th spell levels - not with the 3rd. This is the issue.

With those two spells at the 3rd level, sure - sometimes you would use all four casts to just run somewhere for travel with Expeditious Retreat, or maybe you'd be standing around so the only one you'd use is See Invis - but you would have options. These are not broken spells to have, on a class that already has a save or die and freedom of movement.

[Dumas]

See Invisibility and Expedious Retreat are two of the most useful spells in the game. That'd be a huge increase in power to the assassin class that would tend to be an unbalanced move.

There are, also, lots of items that grant both of those spells, and UMD, which assassin's get, can allow them to use scrolls for such too. I just don't feel like they should get basically free day uses of such spells that are so useful to nearly every sort of character build, for free, when other classes that aren't arcane based need to use them at cost.

Even if asaasins are described as gaining access to arcane abilities, I wouldn't think of them as an arcane based class.

[Pav]

See Invisibility and Expedious Retreat are two of the most useful spells in the game. That'd be a huge increase in power to the assassin class that would tend to be an unbalanced move.

There are, also, lots of items that grant both of those spells, and UMD, which assassin's get, can allow them to use scrolls for such too. I just don't feel like they should get basically free day uses of such spells that are so useful to nearly every sort of character build, for free, when other classes that aren't arcane based need to use them at cost.

Even if asaasins are described as gaining access to arcane abilities, I wouldn't think of them as an arcane based class.

Expeditious Retreat is overshadowed by Haste, by classes who have both spells. Otherwise, lowbies would chug a potion. It is commonly available.

See Invis as well, is commonly available, as you said. The costs to have either at the disposal of someone who can't cast them is minimal. Absolutely nonexistent. My rogue/ranger has them on hand all the time without much issue and I don't even feel a difference in my gp.

You can UMD every Assassin Spell - so why have spells at all, since the base class and the PrC both can just cast them whenever?

Unfortunately, they are arcane spellcasters, whether you like it or not, think of them as such or not.

[FinalHeaven]

I agree with Pav, though I can see why giving the assassin those specific spells might be a bit much. 

Balance isn't about classes having useless features, though.  Or at least it shouldn't be.

[Bad_Bud]

I don't understand the arcane spellcaster argument. Being arcane or divine does not determine a class' spell selection. Poison is a divine spell for every class except Assassin, so this isn't a good argument in favor of adding arbitrary arcane spells to their list.

And for the sake of argument, since this became a point, if having constant access to Expeditious Retreat is effortless, then what benefit would it be to an Assassin to have the spell?

Most official Assassin spells, like Modify Memory, are impossible to represent in game. Poison is actually supposed to be a level 4 Assassin spell, but our Assassins get it at level 3, which is a bonus. The only logical argument I could see is for False Life at level 3 (it's actually an Assassin spell) in place of Spider Poison, but, I think for thematic effect Spider Poison is more useful than Poison, as strength damage is generally more useful for humiliation and torture, so it's a difficult choice either way.

In defense of Poison in general, there is a place, especially in this setting, for spells that can humiliate and cripple without murder. I think it can create more engaging experience for everyone involved when it does happen. You might only get to use a spell like Poison on a target ten levels below you, but that would be a time it might make the most sense to not drop someone instantly in PvP, out of courtesy, even if there are superior mechanical options.

[Pav]

And for the sake of argument, since this became a point, if having constant access to Expeditious Retreat is effortless, then what benefit would it be to an Assassin to have the spell?

It is also near effortless to have many of their other spells on hand. They still get them.

I do agree that due to the d20srd canon, adding these spells likely won't happen, but it is a suggested QoL change, not a buff or a nerf per se. Bear in mind that to cast a single level 3 assassin spell, you'd have to have a minimum of 16 int and be character level 10. That is huge.

In the end, replacing them with Deeper Darkness or/and Light Step which they do get in canon might be a better idea that the dev team would be more partial to.

In defense of Poison in general, there is a place, especially in this setting, for spells that can humiliate and cripple without murder. I think it can create more engaging experience for everyone involved when it does happen. You might only get to use a spell like Poison on a target ten levels below you, but that would be a time it might make the most sense to not drop someone instantly in PvP, out of courtesy, even if there are superior mechanical options.

Or you could just subdual them and not put down a temporary effect on them that most (not all) would likely not bother roleplaying for too long a time. They'd likely just chug lesser resto or antidote, or as Legion said below, pass it because the DC is so low that even a commoner NPC would have a 50/50 chance of saving it.

I agree with Pav, though I can see why giving the assassin those specific spells might be a bit much. 

Do you have other suggestions that might be more reasonable, or maybe agree with the ones I mentioned above?

[Legion XXI]

Aside from the debate of what should and shouldn't be included, this is hopefully something that could be looked at:

In addition, fixing Arcane Spell Failure on the spells would be welcome (currently doesn't apply, hasn't happened once even when in chainmail and a tower shield for testing purposes), as well as correcting Caster Level scaling. Durations for spells remain innate, but the DCs scale. This becomes annoying, often.

As for the spells, the whole reason the assassin learns these specific spells is because they're beneficial for the work that the Assassin does.  He's got a limited amount of time to devote to arcane training since he's split his skills more than normal arcane casters, and so he is only putting time into learning spells that are actually useful to him.  As it stands the poison spells being used for scenes like torture/humiliation is a good idea but the DC is so low I never actually got anyone to fail them. Uni saves stacking is just so common and so widely available that it makes it unrealistic to think a DC 14~ish spell could be used outside of extremely specific scenarios against under leveled AND under geared enemies who also roll poorly.  You're much better off putting a stronger poison on a weapon and then hitting them once with it.  Insight is good and very useful.  Deep slumber faces the same DC problems but I got some use out of it for things like putting groups of guard dogs to sleep.  It's mainly an RP ability and that's ok.

All the level 2 and 4 spells are useful, I like those.  The level 1 spells are all good, but ghostly visage loses it's appeal if you're fighting anything but the most basic enemy, I mostly ignored it, but I won't call it useless because it's 5 dr and a tiny bit of concealment against low tier enemies, or say, garda shooting arrows from a wall or something.  Only ever really used level 3 for insight though, and I feel like that circle is mostly a "grind thru" zone to get to 4th circle because of it.  Poison is a good idea and thematic for the class, I just never had anything actually fail the save (but then again, I didn't use it that much either, I just put poison on my actual weapons because of the higher DCs).

[booksarefun666]

Light step would be an amazing replacement that helps the class while also not giving them tremendous mobility advantages (that admittedly, can still be utilized with a potion or a stack of scrolls) and deeper darkness is easily avoided by just stepping out of the darkness. I think these are something that everyone would be happy with personally.

[TheGrinningHound]

I honestly think that the current spell selection is really fitting, but that Poison just needs to be reworked as a spell-- or even more severely, as a mechanic. The spell form is not at all more potent than easily accessible weapon poisons.

I'd like to see Assassins being able to poison food and drinks with lethal effect. I think they can be poisoned currently, but still with low DC's and non-lethal effects. (I am aware that there are poisons available in-game that are lethal, however. But the Assassin doesn't have this as an option to prepare). I think a high DC edible poison would be great, considering that it's already a difficult Rp challenge to get your target to use said drink, or food. Edible poison shouldn't be something that the victim can simply ingest, and the assassin is still required to leap across the table and stab them to death.


What are the current ways that Poison/Spider Poison can be used on weapons, food, drink, and directly on the victim? Maybe it could have a higher DC and greater (see:lethal) potency when used on edible items. Maybe poison used on edible items could have a delayed effect, so that after the dinner, he gets up to walk home and is suddenly struck with crippling strength damage, where the assassin finishes him off elsewhere. I don't know!

I'd like to see Poison in general be a more lethal method of murder. I'd like assassins to keep it, I'd just like it to be stronger and more applicable.


Edit: Maybe it could be easy to have a poison that simulated the the Vampire bite effect-- where it's a steady, round-by-round Con drain until the person dies or finds an antidote. Con Drain in particular would be cool, because the longer it went on, the less likely the person would be able to save against the poison. Hell, maybe just straight up have it immobilize vs a grapple check too, as you're struggling to fight to reach the antidote, against the poison-- gasping for air and flailing.

[Pav]

I'd like to see Poison in general be a more lethal method of murder. I'd like assassins to keep it, I'd just like it to be stronger and more applicable.

If this were possible then I would agree.

Edit: Maybe it could be easy to have a poison that simulated the the Vampire bite effect-- where it's a steady, round-by-round Con drain until the person dies or finds an antidote. Con Drain in particular would be cool, because the longer it went on, the less likely the person would be able to save against the poison.

+1

[FinalHeaven]

Do you have other suggestions that might be more reasonable, or maybe agree with the ones I mentioned above?

My opinion is almost entirely subjective and not necessarily to do with game balance, I only wished to acknowledge that I can see some concern over those spells.

Specifically though, I think spells that are more unique to the assassin would be more interesting.  I like that the assassin can cast some arcane spells broadly speaking, especially more so than it could with standard NWN.  Basically, more unique spells thematic to the class.  But obviously, some of that takes some work.

[Bad_Bud]

I honestly think that the current spell selection is really fitting, but that Poison just needs to be reworked as a spell-- or even more severely, as a mechanic. The spell form is not at all more potent than easily accessible weapon poisons.

Poison was changed to have a scaling DC, which could be pushed up to about DC 34 in extreme cases.

I don't know much about poisoning food to comment on that though.

[TheGrinningHound]

How does the scaling work? If it's a level 3 spell, that'd be 10 + 3 + 4 greater spell focus + intelligence modifier. Which a high one would be 8, or so. That's a large dc at 25, if someone's like.. a wizard assassin.

Or is the scaling different from normal, and if so, I think that's important to know! Still, though maybe it's better for a different discussion, I very much think poison should be lethal on its own.

[TheGrinningHound]

Okay, so on the PoTM wiki, both Spider Poison and regular Poison have this scaling: 10 + 1/2 Caster Level + Spellcasting Ability Modifier.

If that caster level is assassin, that's a DC of 15 + intelligence modifier. Which is normally 2-4 unbuffed, and maybe 6-7 if empowered. And if you're a wizard/assassin, you might get it up to +8. Which is a DC 23, at absolute best, which is also unlikely. It's usually going to be a DC 17-20.

I suppose your extreme example is a level 20 druid that casts owl's insight, drinks an owls wisdom potion, took a subrace that has +2 wisdom, starts with 20 wisdom and puts every point into it until he gets a 25 base wisdom-- which then becomes a 37 when buffed to absolute maximum, which is a +13 modifier. And that, allllllllll of that, totals to a DC of 10 + 10 + 13, which is 33. It's such an extreme example, frankly, it's just not worth mentioning.

It's cool that it scales. It's cool that a level 20 maximum buffed druid could probably land a con drain. But that's just frankly not what we're talking about.

(Edit: Maybe Necromancy focus increases the spell DC, so a greater focus would improve it by +4. I don't even think that assassins get access to spell focus feats, either.)

[Philos]

I think that might solve part of the issue. Giving them spell focus to up the dc of their offensive spells a bit.