Removing exhaustion debug option

[Iridni Ren]

I've noticed when people post screenshots that often they are running the game so that they receive "exhaustion debug" information.

I don't think this is to debug anything because I also haven't seen any reports of bugs related to exhaustion or any recent argument that the system is bugged. The point seems to be to manipulate exhaustion through timing. In chat earlier it was mentioned, for example, a player can time a crippling strike very effectively by being aware of when exhaustion is about to tic.

You can also use the debug information to ignore exhaustion largely when running by timing your pause to coincide with the tic.

If we're gong to have exhaustion as an annoying effect, the ability to metagame it should not be a built-in temptation to the point a person is a fool not to exploit it.

I think the debug option should be removed.

[Sheltatha]

I think people use it because it's unreasonably difficult to track your exhaustion. There's no reason a character shouldn't be aware at all times of how tired they are, but unless you're using debug you only get warned when it's about to cripple you.

[Iridni Ren]

There's no reason a character shouldn't be aware at all times of how tired they are, but unless you're using debug you only get warned when it's about to cripple you.

I agree that generally you should know how tired you are, (although sometimes fatigue does hit you suddenly IRL, particularly if you're running).

The game sends a warning message even without debug on.

Debug mode is an exploit because IRL the exhaustion would be steady, not a tic that you can avoid through timing. (Or worse, use against other players to time a sneak attack on them.)

Personally, I find the exhaust system *with debug* as pointless. If (almost) everyone is going to use an exploit to avoid it, why bother programming it?

Characters may know that they're growing fatigued, but should they know precisely how much they need to rest (and when) so as not to be tired any more?

[booksarefun666]

Huh, it didn't occur to me to pause right before a tic to avoid exhaustion but with how fast it tics though it'd be pretty annoying and I'd need a stopwatch plus people would probably notice weird running like that.

Characters may know that they're growing fatigued, but should they know precisely how much they need to rest (and when) so as not to be tired any more?

I think so, it's probably not as dead on accurate as portrayed but it's not as vague as it is IC when you're exhausted IRL. When you're stopping in the middle of something to take a breather, you'd know when you could push on a little bit further. As gamey as it may seem, this isn't RL and I feel the debug system keeps a fairly good reader of what your exhaustion is without being the character without validating the system entirely because you can't just simply pause and rest when you're in a fight (ranged excluded) and that's when it matters most.

If your idea gains traction, I just hope it gets replaced with better IC notifications.

[Iluvatar / Madness]

Speaking as a player,

I always thought this was purely OOC information. It didn't took me long to find out it was possible to exploit it. While it may seem like a lot of work... it's not that much work and one could easily run like that when they're alone and no one would ever notice it.

To me, the simple fact it can be exploite is enough to convince me that we would be better removing it.

[FinalHeaven]

Does removing it really matter?  All one has to do is stop for a few seconds when they see the warning message about getting tired if they continue.  A few seconds isn't much to worry about, and then you just continue on your way.

I suppose the benefit of removing it is more noticeable if it really does give a combat advantage.

[Iluvatar / Madness]

A simple fix would be to apply the exhaustion effect before showing a warning message, that way you can't stop running only for a few second to avoid the exhaustion being calculated as if you were running.

[booksarefun666]

World won't end anyway, only difference it'd make for me was sitting around waiting for my 10 con halfling to stop being exhausted when she gets exhausted as opposed to right before and going slightly longer/shorter than two ticks.

[Legion XXI]

I really don't think this is nearly as big of a problem as people seem to think it is.  How many of you actually see people running for 95% of a tick and then stopping for a few seconds on a never ending cycle?  I've never even HEARD of someone being purposefully crippling strike attacked seconds before the tick to exhaust them on moving.  Not even one time.  The planning and coordination that would require (When you factor in your other last-second buffs like haste, true strike, ect) just to gain an edge in an already one-sided surprise attack that is 99% likely to result in instant death even without the target being exhausted is sort of over the top.

I don't think people are running stop watches while casting buffs in the minute leading up to pvp, or while running to the mist camp.  And if (the group of small, extremely dedicated) people are doing that, are we going to entirely remove a system that has some IC value to it?  They're the problem, and should be addressed like a problem.  (PS, if you're one of these people and are reading this - you are the reason that people say "the players wouldn't be able to handle this" when a cool but possibly exploitable system is suggested and shot down..)

I feel like your character would be able to feel how tired he was and react differently according to this - anyone who regularly pushes themselves in workouts/running/ect knows this to be true.  You never just do 50 push ups feeling 100% fine and then on 51 you can't even get off the ground because SUDDEN SURPRISE EXHAUSTION.

I've actually had this system active and used it in RP before, and I feel like it added to the scene.  As my characters fight/run longer I like to RP them differently.  Fighting becomes less technique based, breathing more ragged, ect.  Just removing it entirely seems like we're not addressing the real problem here - people cheesing.  When we see people side-stepping to avoid movement speed decrease, the DMs tell them they are exploiting and they get a warning.  They didn't remove the ability for everyone to sidestep.  So if you see people running and stopping on a regular stopwatch timer (which still seems like way more work than most people are willing to put in) then address that with the player.  It's an exploit to circumvent the exhaustion system and should be fairly easy to observe.  Our DMs are good at catching rule breakers.

Other players should notice you doing it too, if you guys are so concerned about people exploiting then I'm urging you, if you see behavior like this, REPORT IT.  I can't stress that enough.  People always want to complaint that "everyone is doing X" but nobody wants to report it or get specific with names/details.

At the end of the day, I really wouldn't care one way or another because I keep mine off 90% of the time unless I'm in dungeons or doing something I really don't want to get exhausted during.  The spam of the yellow text annoys me during RP sessions where it stays at 0 the whole time.  But I like having the option there and I feel like it adds to things when I do get a chance to use it, so I'd be against just removing it entirely with no replacement of any kind.

[booksarefun666]

(PS, if you're one of these people and are reading this - you are the reason that people say "the players wouldn't be able to handle this" when a cool but possibly exploitable system is suggested and shot down..)

A bit off topic, but I'd just wish they'd ban these types of people or at least give them a suspension. I imagine a fair bit gets stifled because of fear of exploitation.

Although I had no idea side-stepping was exploiting because so many people do it so I guess I would get banned or suspended as well.

[Iluvatar / Madness]

I also agree that people who exploit the system should be punished in some way, but thing is, DM can't always be on the lookout for people who exploit the game, be it side stepping or exploiting the exhaustion system. I'd rather have the DM running event, plot and other stuff than constantly being on the lookout for people exploiting the system.


As for sidestepping, I think many people simply do not know that it is an exploit. Every time I see encumbered people using sidestep to move faster I send a friendly tell to warn them that it is an exploit and that if they caught doing by a DM it will be considered as an exploit. There was a time when even I didn't realize it was an exploit because so many people were doing it. A DM eventually saw me, I got a warning and I haven't done it since them. There are little things like this that everyone does, but most are doing it without realizing they are using an exploit. Perhaps if they were clearly marked as being an exploit somewhere it would help. And there wouldn't be anymore excuses for people getting caught doing it.

[Daboomer]

Illuvatar got it right about the sidestepping i have the same experience with it. People dont know and when you give a friendly tell they usually stop.