Dwarven Defenders

[EO]

What are your thoughts on that PrC balance-wise?

[BlueWizrobe]

Do we even have any?  I've been looking for one to nuzzle me under his/her bearded wing and instruct me in the ways of the DD as suggested for PrC application purposes, but sadly I am, more often than not, the only visibly dwarfish dwarf online, defender or otherwise, during my normal playtimes.

I don't necessarily think that underpopulation is a leading indicator for imbalance in and of itself, it just does make it hard to gather applicable field data.

[julienchab]

The class in itself is very strong. The defensive stance has some awesome buffs but when an ennemy flees and your insta follow him, it will break the stance, putting the DD in an awkward position. Other than that, they get some pretty niche buffs, like the non-flanking in combat and the damage reduction as well, although maybe it would be nice to have a damage reduction progression like the one barbarians get, instead of jumping from 0 to 3 and then 3 to 6.

[BlueWizrobe]

It does seem like the relationship between Defensive Stance's immobility requirement (perfectly appropriate to theme and flavor) and the way enemies suffer morale failure and try to flee at Badly Wounded/ Near Death (also very appropriate) is problematic.  Is it possible to give the player a "Hold Ground" option, where they won't automatically chase a melee target that tries to run away? 

I like the idea of the gradual DR increase too, rather than sudden leaps - just makes character power growth feel more organic.

[qwertyuioppp]

The Defensive Stance is effectively useless, and is as likely to get you killed as it is to be useful. It's been said a thousand times on this forum, but I'll say it all again just in case. It has trouble selecting targets, and with PotM's morale scripts that cause enemies to run away mid-combat, it'll break if you're targeting those. This often drops not only the stat buffs of Defensive Stance, but all queued actions and combat outside it, leaving you flat-footed. This negates the juicy sneak attack immunity. For a class to be defeated so soundly and consistently by its own abilities is frustrating. It makes you not want to use Defensive Stance at all. I seriously struggle to babysit my character through these combat breaks with 400-500ms ping, which shouldn't be necessary for a tank character - that's why I rolled a Dwarven Defender at the time, because my internet speed means I can't reliably play squishier characters.

Compared to Barbarian, I can't move around with the self-buffs from my class, I don't get that whopping 28 Spell Resistance, and I only get 1 more point of Damage Reduction. I'm not sure the AC bonus is even particularly valuable, I don't measure up any stronger defensively than pure BAB classes with Improved Expertise, I'm limited in the number of times per day I can use it, and it's a marginal difference in AB that I'm getting. I could use these feats myself (instead of Defensive Stance) but, compared to Barbarian, that would negate any strengths of the DD class over Barbarian except for the flanking immunity; that's really the only thing I'm getting outside of Defensive Stance, and Barbarian is definitely getting a lot of other buffs to make up for it. For a prestige class devoted to defense to feel such lack of strength as a defensive class is disappointing.

[Iridni Ren]

Do we even have any?  I've been looking for one to nuzzle me under his/her bearded wing and instruct me in the ways of the DD as suggested for PrC application purposes, but sadly I am, more often than not, the only visibly dwarfish dwarf online, defender or otherwise, during my normal playtimes.

I don't necessarily think that underpopulation is a leading indicator for imbalance in and of itself, it just does make it hard to gather applicable field data.

I've run into two, (although MAB77/Borval Skullbreaker is on break, I think).

[booksarefun666]

On paper, it seems perfectly fine besides defensive stance which has it's mechanical problems. Combine it with a wizard's spells and you probably have the finest meatshield in PoTM and a good PrC for the two fighter Dwarves we have on the server.

Energy resist (from fighter feats) + physical absorption? I get wet at the mere thought, I suspect you'd have a lot more people trying to go that route if they didn't have to play a Dwarf and honestly, the race restriction should stay imo. But if you were to waive the race restriction you'd have a solid reason to start as a fighter and stick with it until level 10 and give the fighter class more "use" vs it's barbarian counterpart.

[Sheltatha]

It's a really good class. Even with the problematic defensive stance (all combat modes in nwn are awful to use) the d12 hp, Fort and Will as primary saves, defensive awareness, and 6 DR are more than worth it.

[Nemesis 24]

I'd disagree somewhat.  The other combat modes are hugely advantageous because they are dip in, dip out, and don't have the combat break issue.  Expertise lasts for a combat, even if you move.  Defensive stance does not, and unlike expertise, you cannot redip.  The fact it cannot be retriggered and for the things it 'does' to the character, it makes it less than worthless.

[BlueWizrobe]

I suspect you'd have a lot more people trying to go that route if they didn't have to play a Dwarf ....

Why would anyone NOT want to play a dwarf??

On topic - the feat expenditures to get to Spring Attack makes getting dragged into the mosh pit a bit less of a problem as you won't trigger AOO's for moving (it's honestly a feat that I can't imagine making a melee character w/out, and you already have to have the prerequisite DEX and 1st feat - Dodge - for DD anyway) but that's arguably a high tax, even with its extremely useful benefits (less so for Fighters with their overflowing stack of feats) to "fix" what is more of an AI problem anyway.

And Zach's right on - it's hard to compare D. Stance to other combat modes (Expertise, specifically) due to the limited use per day vs. Toggle issue.  Although D. Stance provides far more benefits. 

Ok...how about this.  If "Stand Ground" doesn't work as a PC command option, what if using D. Stance immobilizes the player for its duration?  I get that there are SERIOUS drawbacks there, but it does create a tactical trade-off.  Think the fight might go sideways necessitating a withdrawal?  Don't use it and be ready to bolt.  Committed to hold the line no matter what?  (Hell yeah!) Dig in and let them break upon you like waves upon the stones.  At least it ensures that if you do decide to Wall up, you're getting the full benefit of the ability... and it encourages tactical play, which I think is a good thing.  Treat it as a starting point if nothing else, I guess.

[julienchab]

Defensive stance already immobilize the target. The problem is when someone flees, your character instantly goes to follow and it breaks the stance.

[BlueWizrobe]

Right, I mean Immobilize in the way that the Entangle spell immobilizes, making it unbreakable, so you can't tear off and chase after the runners.

[snowfox]

My own experience with Dwarven Defender is, to put it simply, that I play a fighter with better willsaves. I only use defensive stance while fighting things like black puddings, because with nearly everything else it breaks after the first or the second enemy is defeated. On paper the defensive awareness can be incredibly strong, but I haven't yet had a chance to test that.

[BlueWizrobe]

Actually, as I think about it, applying the 'immobilized' condition (a la Entangle or similar spells that still allow attacks but just prevent movement) I believe also torpedo your reflex save and Dodge AC to 0.... which is rather counter productive to working with DS.  So it wouldn't work as-is.  Devs, is there a variable or something that can be set to prevent movement without affecting any other attributes or actions?

[BahamutZ3RO]

It'd be cool if someone could figure out a way to have Defensive Stance root you without hurting your stats or anything.

Honestly, I'd even be fine with it having unlimited usage like Power Attack or Improved Expertise, given that the class requires an application anyways.

[booksarefun666]

I suspect you'd have a lot more people trying to go that route if they didn't have to play a Dwarf ....

Why would anyone NOT want to play a dwarf??

Dwarves are ugly.

Sincerely,

An Elf.

P.S. Why not just have defensive stance have you walk at 10% movement speed instead of needing you to be immobilized?

[BlueWizrobe]

That is mean and hurtful and you're just a big mean hurtful meaniehead!


PS - any type of movement, slow or otherwise, is what takes you out of DS.  Ideally, moving or not moving should be controllable a little better by the player, as opposed to taking off after a mob that tries to flee from you without any further player input.  Whether that's something that can be adjusted or is just hard-coded into the engine, I have no idea.  An immobilizing condition is just one possible proposed solution..and admittedly a fairly clunky one, at that.

[Night of Reod]

 I am not sure how feasible it is from development perspective, but perhaps turning it into a feat-like effect that has a time limit like Divine Might feat or Trickery Domain might work better than a combat mode. I think a turn + rounds per Con modifier after Defensive Stance Con bonus would be a good duration for it, and it would also allow access to expertise or another combat mode to make up for the potentially lower duration.

[BlueWizrobe]

Agh!  I thought it did have a limited duration by default.  I see now it does not.  Yeah, if we're looking at any sort of way to lock the PC in place to prevent the DS dropping problem from occurring, the above suggestion becomes necessary as well.

EDIT: DS does automatically shut off once there are no targets in melee range - much like any other combat mode.

[MAB77]

P.S. Why not just have defensive stance have you walk at 10% movement speed instead of needing you to be immobilized?

Because the ability is hard-coded and cannot be modified. Otherwise I'm sure a solution would have been applied long ago.

As a player of a Dwarven Defender I can attest to the risks of using the defensive stance. It does have its use in limited circumstances, it won me a few PvP duels for instance.

[booksarefun666]

P.S. Why not just have defensive stance have you walk at 10% movement speed instead of needing you to be immobilized?

Because the ability is hard-coded and cannot be modified. Otherwise I'm sure a solution would have been applied long ago.

As a player of a Dwarven Defender I can attest to the risks of using the defensive stance. It does have its use in limited circumstances, it won me a few PvP duels for instance.

death to all hardcodes

[Iluvatar / Madness]

It's hard-coded, but the feat can simply be replaced with a new one, but that would require a hak update.

I got that from EO btw 

So perhaps it will be corrected with next hak update....who knows!

[Gutshank]

I play Gorim Kraggsson who is a dwarven defender and I will echo a lot of what Bastellus said. We have played the prc and have seen the problems first hand. The main mechanic of the prestige class, defensive stance, is horribly broken. I find myself not even bother using it on the majority of the battles especially against creatures who have sneak attack. If I do want to use it sometimes I will go through all 5 uses within the same encounter because it breaks so often. The mechanic is beyond frustrating.

The progression of the class is annoying as well. I wish the damage reduction was more spread out instead of  giving you 3 at 6 then 3 more at 10th. At level 7, 8th, and 9th level you get nothing for the class other than more of the broken dd stance. And in total we now have only 1 more DR than the barbarian. This DR does not stack with the armor that grants DR too.