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Author Topic: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic  (Read 50613 times)

JironGhrad

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2007, 12:11:45 AM »
what about the diseased guy turning the proper shade and getting up off his death bed?
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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2007, 12:20:46 AM »
what about the diseased guy turning the proper shade and getting up off his death bed?
which is a form of healing, and thus, accepted. A cleric casting blade barrier or rain of fire would not be looked upon so favorably, unless it was already known that the cleric was a healer.

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JironGhrad

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2007, 12:24:48 AM »
hehe I was actually pointing out the results of a remove disease spell... visable I'd say
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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #53 on: February 22, 2007, 05:11:49 AM »
It's always been my interpretation... that when a person casts a divine spell, they are essentially speaking a prayer... thus the verbal component would most likely be in common (or one of the other languages they speak)  whereas arcane spells are gibbrish (mix of draconic and all sorts of weird gibberish)  Therefore, it'd be more like.

Cleric: Tyr, cleanse this man's body of the taint within. (glowy light)  *peasant thinks, "Oh... he got rid of his disease"*
Wizard: GRCHIANF TERGOLIAN GEIROTO!  (glowy light)   *Peasant runs away full speed, leaving a trail of urine behind*

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #54 on: February 22, 2007, 08:27:57 AM »
Quote
Cleric: Tyr, cleanse this man's body of the taint within. (glowy light)  *peasant thinks, "Oh... he got rid of his disease"*
Wizard: GRCHIANF TERGOLIAN GEIROTO!  (glowy light)   *Peasant runs away full speed, leaving a trail of urine behind*

A commoner Barovian knows neither common nor arcane. To him, it would rather be:
Cleric: GRCHIANF TERGOLIAN GEIROTO!  (glowy light)
Wizard: GRCHIANF TERGOLIAN GEIROTO!  (glowy light)

How could he ossibly differ common from arcane when he understands neither language. Sure, if he knows common he can make such an assumption. But how is he to differ it from elven. Dwarven. Orc. Or any other language? I doubt the Barovian commoner has lore enough to recognize the different outlander languages.
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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #55 on: February 22, 2007, 09:13:04 AM »
This is just a theory of mine supported by various literature..

Many mages whisper or speaks under their breath when casting.. And then again many mages also train to use as few gestures as possible or tries to make them as discrete as possible, hiding them in their sleeves, under the table etc...
Now all of these are without Still Spell and Silent Spell, since both somatic and verbal compontents are there, but toned down..
How about it?
Of course this is probably something only an experienced mage could do, that is familiar with the spells in question.. Ie probably not the highest spell lvl he knows or even the second highest..

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #56 on: February 22, 2007, 09:18:26 AM »
Quote
Like arcane magic, the divine magic of druids is thought to flow directly from a demonic source; Barovians predictably regard such priests of nature with fear and contempt.

Quote
   Divine magic as practiced by clerics is regarded as spiritually pure, at least when the spellcaster in question serves a virtuous deity.

Read the first quote and the second. It's not because it's divine magic that the Barovian will like it. If druids who are channeling divine energies and casting similarly to a cleric are seen as 'demonic' and clerics not following 'virtuous deities' (and to a Barovian that is likely only Ezra or the Morninglord or Hala), then they will be seen and labelled as witches and demon consorting freaks. Until mages can pretend they cast healing and restorative magic just like a cleric and pose as one, then they will be seen as consorting with demons.

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #57 on: February 22, 2007, 10:06:32 AM »
Well.. There have been obviously evil clerics casting around freely as well.. Spells like destruction and implosion comes to mind..

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2007, 10:17:27 AM »
If a cleric is casting something frightening, they could be percieved as being a witch.

Basically, most Barovians and Gundarakite live entire lives without ever seeing a vampire, a werewolf, or anyone raised from the dead.  The experience characters have in the module is very unlike the experience of a native.

If they do come in contact with a cleric, say through the Morninglord Cult, espcially the Gundarakite who have been joining the fold of the cult, they may come to have trust in those clerics. 

There is no metagaming going on here.  If a cleric summons an undead warrior, and a mage summons an undead warrior, both are feared equally without distiniction.  It is the outcome, what they can visibly see, that they are interpreting as good or evil. 

 


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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2007, 12:22:31 PM »
It is metagaming when a native knows the difference between an arcane caster casting owls wisdom and a cleric casting cure disease. Unless there's an actual change in the subject of the spell, the native would not know the difference of the two spells. It's just foreign language and gestures. I wouldn't bring it up if I hadn't seen it. Native character yawping about witchery when a wizard casts something, but just smiling when a cleric does the same.

I agree that a native would know the difference between a healing spell and an arcane spell, but only if there's an effect denoting it.
I do not agree to a native yawping witchery when I cast a stilled owls wisdom. There are no gestures, only words. And the native has no way of knowing it's arcane words, and not just a foreign language.
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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2007, 01:06:28 PM »
NPC "Witch" Shows up.  BURN THE WITCH! Result, A Burnt Witch.

PC "Witch" Launches 50 fireballs in full view of the guards, then goes drinking in the Lady's Rest five minutes later, attends a play at the Broken Bell.
Result, a 4 page diatribe on meta gaming, hair splitting, interpret it this way that way.

I say Burn the Witch.  Burn his Carebear buddies too.  Maybe the Majority of the Barovians would just run away screaming.  A few will go get their torches and pitchforks, whip up some MOB MENTALITY, and go handle it.

A few more may go report to the authorities and the Burgomaster can send word to the Count that he has competition and some whack job PC is burning up all the Counts property.

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« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 01:25:07 PM by Rex »
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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #61 on: February 22, 2007, 01:19:42 PM »
There haven't been very many native Barovians or Gundarakite players.  It is also very challenging to play, and not everyone may know with certainity how to react in some situations.

In doing the research before and during the playing of my Gundarakites, I formed this outlook:

My Gundarakites grew up on a farm, having no exposure to either cleric or mage powers.  
So when Gibrana landed a job at the Lady's Rest, and she was suddenly surrounded by 20 to 40 outlanders, there was some huge tension.
She'd never seen magical light even, let alone the other "unusual" powers.
She pretty much tried her best to stay clear from anyone who didn't appear as "normal," by her own culture's definition.  

Ellfric, her brother, is the first generation Zsivosky to become faithful to the Morninglord's message (as interpreted by a Gundarakite).
He's had more exposure to clerics because of this.  
He's slowly becoming a bit more comfortable with the things clerics do, but those are only things such as healing spells and the like.  
With his bride to be, a cleric, after seeing clerics perform regularly, he may notice the difference between a mage casting owl's wisdom and a cleric.  

But if that mage does so discreetly, or masks it as a prayer, then no biggy.  

Basically, my natives will react fearfully to spells, either cleric or mage, that are not of a healing nature, and that produce dramatic effects such as stone skin, fireballs, death magic, and the like.  

I don't know how they'll react in every situation, and glad for it, since part of the setting and the joy is not knowing how these tensions will always play out.  

I can't account for how other players with natives interact in similar situations.  The best course of action is to talk about the role playing of natives in the forum, without putting those players on the defensive, especially given how challenging it can be to role play a native.  

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #62 on: February 22, 2007, 01:29:27 PM »
A few more may go report to the authorities and the Burgomaster can send word to the Count that he has competition and some whack job PC is burning up all the Counts property.

~Rex  :twisted:
I'd still like to know where people get this idea that Strahd feels competitive with mages. He doesn't. The destruction of his property, on the other hand, will definitely draw his ire.

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2007, 01:31:12 PM »
A few more may go report to the authorities and the Burgomaster can send word to the Count that he has competition and some whack job PC is burning up all the Counts property.

~Rex  :twisted:
I'd still like to know where people get this idea that Strahd feels competitive with mages. He doesn't. The destruction of his property, on the other hand, will definitely draw his ire.

I didn't mean competitive in the way of....Oh Look...a Mage...time for lunch.  But a diner invitation to preuse ones arcane knowledge etc might be in order.  Then a brief discussion about the rights ofthe Master of the Land over his property and how Fireballing his Property may not be a good thing.

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2007, 03:43:46 PM »
Quote
I didn't mean competitive in the way of....Oh Look...a Mage...time for lunch.  But a diner invitation to preuse ones arcane knowledge etc might be in order.  Then a brief discussion about the rights ofthe Master of the Land over his property and how Fireballing his Property may not be a good thing.

Followed by of course, the requisite stabbing in the face for destroying said property. And then- Cake.

This would make for an awesome RP event by the way, seriously. ~makes note to start blowing stuff up~

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #65 on: February 22, 2007, 05:44:56 PM »
How could he ossibly differ common from arcane when he understands neither language. Sure, if he knows common he can make such an assumption. But how is he to differ it from elven. Dwarven. Orc. Or any other language? I doubt the Barovian commoner has lore enough to recognize the different outlander languages.

Bull.   Talk to any npc and they will speak back to you in common.  Common is, just that, common in the server's version of ravenloft.

And if your cleric is casting spells in elven, dwarven, halfling, or anything else, I'd expect to be branded a witch. (provided the spell isn't obviously healing)
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 05:46:32 PM by Demi-Lich »

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #66 on: February 22, 2007, 06:21:04 PM »
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Bull.   Talk to any npc and they will speak back to you in common.  Common is, just that, common in the server's version of ravenloft.

Ive been thinking about that as well. Why the hell does peasants speak common anyway? Not to mention a lot of the Barovian players do. Where did they learn common? And more importantly - even if we put aside the unrealistic situation where a person learns a language of a group he dislikes, when he doesn't have to... How is it possible that Natives can dislike an outlander when they've taken the extensive time to learn their language?

That has always bugged me. Every Barovian out there (save for one, Kudos to Elisea) seems to know a LOT of common. And in turn - every level outlander popping up in the mists seems to have any sort of possible/impossible excuse to know Balok. Its stupid, stupid, stupid if you ask me, that a xenophobic people who shuts their windows when you come strolling would take hours and hours from their hard and time consuminf effort to survive, so they can learn the language of a faction they fear and dispise.

Makes zero sense.

My comment was under the -assumption- that Barovians do NOT take hours of their lives to learn common. And if they do, then where does this xenophobia come from? Apparently, they're not xenophobic enough to stay away from outlanders long enough to avoid learning their language near fluently.

... seriously.
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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #67 on: February 22, 2007, 06:32:20 PM »
Balok is not common.

Basically, there is nothing realistic about an outlander popping up in Barovia and then being able to communicate in a common language with a Barovian, or vice versa. 

It seems to have been an unspoken agreenment to suspend our belief, in the interest of role play.  Since natives would not take the time to teach their language to outlanders, except in rare cases.

In fact, with so many outlanders coming from various places, if we were to be ultra-realistic, most outlanders wouldn't be able to communicate with one another as well. 


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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #68 on: February 22, 2007, 06:36:07 PM »
And yet, it seems that a tenth of our outlander players speak Balok for some reason.
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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #69 on: February 22, 2007, 06:38:36 PM »
The Developers, after discussion in another thread on languages, might be implementing language tokens to ensure that outlanders who do learn Balok or Luktar, have the role playing to support it.

For example, if an outlander has spend the past few years (in game years) working with the Gundarakite rebels, they might learn enough Lutkar.

If an outlander is accepted in to the Vallaki Guard, and they spend enough time immersed in Vallaki, then they might learn to speak Balok.


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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #70 on: February 22, 2007, 06:42:35 PM »
on that same note... common is probably some form of gutter argot or trade talk... Vallaki is something of a hub in Barovia for trading so it's likely that "common" can be picked up in a few weeks at the outside...
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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #71 on: February 22, 2007, 08:10:49 PM »
on that same note... common is probably some form of gutter argot or trade talk... Vallaki is something of a hub in Barovia for trading so it's likely that "common" can be picked up in a few weeks at the outside...

No, actually, this was clarified by Blue in another thread. Common doesn't exist in Ravenloft. Common is more or less modern english. The 'closest' equivalent would be Low Mordentish, but it is old english and used in literrature. Barovians aren't interested in arts.

Balok is the language of trading and business in the Core generally. The language of merchants.

---

As to why our natives speak common? The module is more or less designed that way. It would suck for players if none of the NPC's in the module spoke common, wouldn't it? Cezar wouldn't give you keys, you wouldn't understand Zachea's gibberish, you would feel alienated but as a player, it would be a pain. It is a matter of simplicity and we had to bend the setting a little for that. That's all there is to it. For POTM2, we are gearing more towards a Barovian native play (Barovians and Gundarakites being the focus), so perhaps it could be done, however it is a lot of trouble for close to little rewards.

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #72 on: February 22, 2007, 08:57:12 PM »
Bring on the Language Tokens.

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #73 on: February 22, 2007, 09:35:42 PM »
NPC "Witch" Shows up.  BURN THE WITCH! Result, A Burnt Witch.

PC "Witch" Launches 50 fireballs in full view of the guards, then goes drinking in the Lady's Rest five minutes later, attends a play at the Broken Bell.
Result, a 4 page diatribe on meta gaming, hair splitting, interpret it this way that way.

I say Burn the Witch.  Burn his Carebear buddies too.  Maybe the Majority of the Barovians would just run away screaming.  A few will go get their torches and pitchforks, whip up some MOB MENTALITY, and go handle it.

A few more may go report to the authorities and the Burgomaster can send word to the Count that he has competition and some whack job PC is burning up all the Counts property.

~Rex  :twisted:

To my knowledge, if you cast spells around an NPC guard, you become KoS to their faction, so you wouldn't see this example at all.
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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #74 on: February 23, 2007, 09:18:02 AM »
Quote
In fact, with so many outlanders coming from various places, if we were to be ultra-realistic, most outlanders wouldn't be able to communicate with one another as well.

Exactly... Now everyone coming from different worlds wouldnt be able to communicate with each other, since for one common is not the same n every world..
Simply put.. it would be to messy..

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