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Author Topic: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic  (Read 50445 times)

Doom

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2006, 01:22:48 AM »
My own caster has taken to extreme methods, praying to a goddess and extolling her holy virtues every time she so much as utters a cure light wounds, in an effort to pretend to be seen as a priestess.

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2006, 10:11:02 AM »
Good to hear Blues.

When new players see that sort of precaution and extreme care put into concealing one's arcane "talents" then that should help set the tone for the setting for new players to model. 

Modeling good and appropiate role play for the setting is always something to be mindful of.

In teaching, we use the metaphor of scaffolding when our goal is for students to gradually internalize new skills and behaviors.

First: I do, you watch.
Second: I do, you ask questions.
Third: You do, I ask questions.
Fourth: You do, I watch.

 

 


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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2007, 01:59:20 PM »
I've seen this topic come up today in the thread on fighter classess so have given it a good ol' bump.



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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2007, 02:14:18 PM »
Quote
According to one of the transition screens, Barovians only accept healing magics.


Its important to note about Magic, and I'll refer you to think link: http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=5694.msg55965#msg55965

Specifically the : Arcane versus Divine section.

Aside healing Magic, the Rest would very much apear as Sorcery to the common folk, specially a Barovian.




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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2007, 02:58:41 PM »
My Gundarakite doesn't care what any outlander labels "it." 

If a cleric summons an undead skeleton, that's "witchcraft."
If a mage summonds an undead, that's "wtichcraft."

The same goes for many other spells.

It is almost important to note that though outlanders are common at PoTm, Barovia, as it was created for PnP, would not have had that much exposure to outlander ways of living or thinking (nor are they usually receptive to outlanders ways).  The feeling I imagine intended in the PnP, is that the outlanders find themselves alienated.  I don't know if there would be about 20 or 40 outlanders all hanging out in Vallaki in PnP. 


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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2007, 03:01:05 PM »
Quote
My Gundarakite doesn't care what any outlander labels "it."

Yes, but the NPC's reactions don't care either. They don't react to Clerical buffs?

[Can someone clarify?]

For instance, you wont get lynched as a Cleric, nor be "Outcasted" for the use of "Witchery" Like protection from the elements, no matter how good, would be enough for you to be labeled. Imo.

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2007, 03:04:48 PM »
Barovia in PnP really is xenophobic. You land there (or arrive there from another domain) and find yourself in that place where they shut their windows and doors at night, lock themselves in. Where no one speaks your language and no one wants to talk to you. You might find a friendlier innkeeper, you might not. You will be met with harsh glares, you will feel lonely. Alone. You won't feel welcome. At all.

That's what makes Barovia a horrible place, that and the horrors that lurk at night, but there are other domains with more horrors (Verbrek comes to mind at the moment or Bluetspur or a lot of those crazy domains). Barovia is the xenophobic domain, the backwards one.

----

As for clerics and mages. In the server right now, it detects arcane spells. If you cast an arcane spell near a NPC(be you a wizard, sorcerer or bard), your Outcast Rating will go up. It won't have that effect if you cast a clerical spell (any cleric spells..healing for bards), your Outcast Rating will remain unaffected. Recently, a new script was added though: if you walk near a NPC with a buff (any buff with a visual effect..wether casted by a druid, cleric, mage or bard..or items), you will temporary feel an increase of Outcast Rating; it might not be enough to trigger reactions, but the more spells, the more chances of triggering hostile reactions.

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2007, 03:05:08 PM »
I do not understand why a person equipped with a normal-intelligent brain would keep fearing that which does not hurt him, but instead helps him. It's like hating the doctor who cured your pneumonia, or have a grudge against the guy who fixed your roof for free. It makes no sense to me why a Barovian would keep fearing magic that does no harm. We claim that Barovians would view any magic but healing as sorcery. But I ask you - how the hell do they know the difference. YOU as a player can tell the difference between a protection from evil spell and a healing spell. But the Barovian wouldn't. If a cleric heals a badly wounded person, thus -ending- a state of extreme pain and blood loss, why would that Barovian then scream "omg witchery" when someone blesses their weapon?

It makes zero sense to me. How does a person like that reason anyway?
"Oh, this person just brought me back from the brink of death. I better go get my buddies to burn him on the stake for blessing my weapon - making me able to fend for my life against he undead hoards trying to eat my brain. Yes, that seems like a reasonable line of thought. Let's KILL the person who SAVES my life and helps my community survive. Mhm, good idea there Sherlock."

I want you to bare in mind that superstition is a two way street. When white people came to africa, they were first appreciated for their knowledge in a variety of things. On the other hand, they were lynched for taking pictures of the natives, since the natives thought the camera stole their sole and imprisoned it on the photo. Generally, a person will fear that which hurts him, and rever that which helps him.

I find the reaction of Barovians - fearing clerics who heal them - just pure stupid.

Consider how the natives of Africa reacted to white people and their inventions. They were worshipped until they started to steal, rape and main the population. True, in some cases, they were killed right away. One example being the camera crew who were put down because the natives (or rather - the schaman who was losing power to the newcomers) claimed that the cameras stole the sole of the one on the picture.

That's a minority though. Even those who fear new things are brought to a point where they have to decide if it hurts them, or aids them. In the setting of Barovia - I understand fully if the pre-reaction is that all magi is bad. But when that magic is used by those who heal people - the natural reaction should be vice versa. It should be more along the line of "whoah, that's odd. But it's the cleric who does it. The guy who saved my friends kid/dad/whatever from dying. It has to be good."[/b]

I agree to the setting, and that natives first reaction is to fear magic. But to keep fearing that which evidently is good for you is not ignorance. It's stupidity. No person with normal intelligence fails to see one simple rule that all things in the universe abide to. It's called action and consequense. And when that action bears the consequense of aid, safety and healing - then a reaction of fearing it is unnatural and illogic.

So I ask again. How does a Native - who has no knowledge in spellcraft - acknowledge what is a healing spell and what isn't? How could such a person possibly deem a non-healing spell as such? In fact, I think that a Barovian who's had a cleric cast and explain protection from evil would be brave above the average. How could he come to harm, after all? He's protected against evil. If he doesn't understand magic, then why wouldn't he assume that he's immortal against anything he deems as evil?

I'm just questioning the reactions of characters here. In general.
If you're not an idiot - why persist with claiming something that evidently isn't true?

What Barovian would claim that something that protects you from harm - is connected to dark powers?
« Last Edit: February 21, 2007, 03:08:46 PM by Orchson »
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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2007, 03:10:04 PM »
None... but only because no one knows what a dark power is...
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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2007, 03:14:04 PM »
^^^

yep and..

B. They are connected to the dark powers (healing or otherwise)

and

C. From the thought i get to a local barovian there int/wis is like 10 at best soo while of possibly standard intellect and wisdom they lack the widom to connect teh dots to your "oh it helped so it must be good line of thought"

and

D. From my own thoughts on reading the 2nd Editoni setting books for ravenloft 95% of all folks in baroiva (if not more)...are simple uneducated peasants

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2007, 03:16:40 PM »
Orchson, you grossly underestimate the combined power of willfull ignorance and ingrained superstition. Consider that in the real world, today, there are people who refuse scientifically proven medications because they believe their faith in God will heal them. It's been known for nearly a thousand years that the Earth is round, yet there are still people--the Flat Earth Society--who insist otherwise. And don't get me started on evolution's detractors.

The fact is, if the majority of people in a culture enforce superstition, ignorance, and xenophobia, it will likely remain that way. When those who object to this behavior are killed or at best shunned, there is little incentive to change.

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2007, 03:18:42 PM »
D is a good point... take a caveman with twice the IQ of Einstein... put him in a modern lab and he'll cower in a corner until he starves to death or rampage and kill everyone else and smash the place up; he, like the Barovians, lack the basis for understanding the answer... and, any Barovian you manage to convince will be quietly carted off to the Asylum by his well-meaning friends and neighbors, because he/she has clearly lost their mind
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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2007, 03:21:53 PM »
Blue beat me to it. Barovians don't even go to school at all..they are uneducated, illiterate and backwaters people..nobles 'might' school their children (that is..hiring private tutors or sending them off in other domains).

Plenty of examples of that. Just go to South Africa where a large majority of the population, including government officials, believe that AIDS can be cured with some shamanist ways or by drinking some tea or eating some fruit. How come so many would believe that in the modern world? Lack of education, lack of knowledge, lack of a desire to seek answers. That's ignorance, blind superstitions..even if logically they would realize that their superstitious ways don't work, there is nothing logical in it.

Quote from: Gazetteer I
Magic in Barovia

Though Barovians believe in magic, the vast majority of them have never seen it in practice, at least outside of the local cleric. Most folk regard magic as a secret as old as time and riddled with spiritual risks too terrible to contemplate. Arcane magic is practiced only in secret in Barovia, as the common folk believe that all such power is a gift granted by demons. These fell blessings can be bestowed in the womb (sorcerers) or deliberately sought out by the deranged (wizards), but it makes little difference to the fearful peasant mind. Even bards must be careful not to reveal themselves as anything but wandering performers in this land. Since popular opinion holds that arcane spellcasters are unquestionably the minions of evil, the agents of the boyars and burgomasters rarely discourage violence against them. Villages are rife with tales of suspected spellcasters lynched in full view of idle Barovian soldiers.

                Divine magic as practiced by clerics is regarded as spiritually pure, at least when the spellcaster in question serves a virtuous deity. Nonetheless, Barovians who do not share a cleric's zealous devotion to a particular god are often fearful of the priest's magical power. Like arcane magic, the divine magic of druids is thought to flow directly from a demonic source; Barovians predictably regard such priests of nature with fear and contempt.

                As a people, the Barovians tend to be suspicious of organized institutions, and as such they often have little love for clergy. The vast majority of ethnic Barovians are not religious; the reasons, I discovered, can be as numerous as the folk one presses on the matter. Most, however, believe that the nebulous gods of antiquity are literally missing or dead and that churches are sanctuaries for pretenders and fools. They seldom frequent their churches except when attending funerals. In fact, even in settlements with a functioning temple, weddings are commonly held in the local inn. Only the most optimistic young couples arrange for church weddings.

                Ezra: Ezra's church has never gained a strong foothold in Barovia. Many Barovians believe that Ezra's clergy are nothing but quislings for Ivana Boritsi, the Black Widow of Borca. Indeed, boyars and burgomasters are notoriously hostile to the notion of temporal Church power when it threatens their own. Temples that become too ambitious or wealthy for their own good often find their assets seized and their clergy jailed by the Count's minions. Nonetheless, the Goddess' message of duty and guardianship appeals to some Barovians, and the Church of Ezra persists here without Strahd's formal blessing.

                Hala: As in realms throughout the Core, the Church of Hala maintains a fragile and unobtrusive presence in Barovia. Most Barovians' experiences with the faith are limited to its hospices, where weary travelers are given shelter and healing. The majority of folk thus have a benign impression of the Church. Few suspect the reality that the Weathermay ladies so casually exposed by publishing Van Richten's Guide to Witches: that the Church espouses a magical, naturalistic creed that would be regarded as profane by most Barovians. Hala's clergy practice great discretion when dealing with Strahd's agents, making a tremendous show of appearing humble and obedient. Their secrecy, I should note, has been aided by the Count's suppression of van Richten's works, a matter I shall soon return to.

                The Morninglord: The cult of the Morninglord is, of course, Barovia's native religious phenomenon, a faith that sprang up seemingly overnight in the fifth century and has slowly gathered influence ever since. Martyn "the Mad" Pelkar was regarded as a harmless eccentric when he first began proselytizing about the Morninglord. Gradually, with the aid of his first young acolyte, the charismatic Sasha Petrovich, he was able to attract a modest congregation at the Sanctuary of Blessed Succor in the Village of Barovia.

                The cult's religious center has moved westward in the centuries since, first to Vallaki and then to Krezk, supposedly at the prodding of unnamed, generous contributors. Many wagging tongues insist that the cult wishes to put as much distance as possible between its most holy temple and Count von Zarovich.

                I learned quite quickly that nearly every Barovian has an opinion on the Morninglord and his faithful. Most ethnic Barovians view the cult with bemusement or cynicism. The Morninglord's message of blind hope in the face of darkness strikes many as foolishly naive. Some Barovians, particularly the burgomasters, boyars, and their agents, grow suspicious of the cult's popularity among the Gundarakites. Gundarakites seem to cleave a little too closely to the cult's uplifting message, and some burgomasters have gone out of their way to prove a link between the Morninglord's devotees and violent Gundarakite rebel activities. Gundarakites, for their part, seemingly cannot help but be drawn like lambs to the Morninglord's cheery promise of salvation. The cult's temples are strongest in settlements where Gundarakites dominate, and in some temples Luktar is even the preferred language for religious services.

                Erlin: Erlin is a puzzling Gundarakite death deity whose worship was sanctioned and encouraged by Duke Gundar during his rule. He is an ancient god and likely a corruption of an even older demonic entity, Irlek-Khan. Most Gundarakites refuse to speak of him, but I convinced several youths to expound on his attributes at length. He displays neither the cold detachment nor the absolute evil associated with death deities in most cultures. His demeanor could be described as that of a trickster, yet thoroughly malicious and scatterbrained. He supposedly created death as a gleeful deception, convincing the first man that his demise was unavoidable; the mortal, of course, promptly died. Erlin has thousands of demonic minions (all of them named and organized into a vast and mutable hierarchy) that assist the god in his duties. His supervision of the departed is cast in the metaphor of herding cattle or sheep, though Erlin often neglects his obligations and allows the dead to roam free; hence, the existence of the undead. Though his priests have never included clerics capable of divine magic, the clergy are no less fervent in their devotion. Just as he has threatened to fade from memory entirely, Erlin has experienced a revival of sorts in recent years. Many young Gundarakites now associate him with Gundarakite ethnic pride, using the faith as a banner around which to rally.

Regardless of their professed faith, if any, Barovians adhere to a simplistic, somewhat muddled cosmology. While they believe in a heaven and hell, which are called Refugiu and Iadul in Balok, such otherworldly locations are more folk beliefs than facets of a refined cosmology. Refugiu is a vague and mysterious place, not so much a paradise as a place of rest, where the weariness of the mortal coil is shed for eternal spiritual slumber. As with most heavenly realms, Refugiu is thought to lie above the mortal world, beyond the firmament of stars. The souls of most mortals, even those who were generally wicked in life, are thought to journey to Refugiu upon death.

In contrast to Refugiu's ambiguity, most Barovians have a vivid conception of Iadul as a place of unspeakable horror. Fragments of the ancient Barovian epic Flight from the Balinoks describe Iadul as a fetid pit of disease that stretches into the bowels of the earth. Such a place does not serve to punish evildoers in any cosmic sense. It is merely the abode of demons, and any mortal who finds his way there forged his own damnation without the gods' judgment. Unfortunately, demons are thought to be able to claw their way up into the mortal world to wreak havoc on humankind. Such fiends are generally seen as agents of destruction and perversity interested in humanity only insomuch as it can assist in furthering their own dark desires.


                All Barovians celebrate the same seasonal festivals widely observed throughout the Core's temperate regions. Perhaps due to their druidic heritage, the Forfarians hold the four solar holidays as especially holy.

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2007, 03:29:38 PM »
So, you're telling me than Bob the Barovian will likley try to burn the dude who saved his life and healed his child from a deadly disease, because someone blessed his dagger?

Okay then, how about my question - how do Barovians see the difference between healing magic and other magic?
I mean - if I use still spell - and bless my own weapon - how could they possibly:

A) Recognize it as arcane words.
B) Recognize it as something else than healing magic.

You're talking about quite extensive metagaming from Barovian players. They have 0, nada, nill, no possible way of differing an arcane casting from a simple warding gesture made in a foreign language. How do they know it's not elven? Or any other outlander language that's uttere when the mage does something that does NOT have a visual effect?

This bothers me. It seems like the general player population is prepared to metagame in order to be able to express thei fear of magic.
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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2007, 03:34:22 PM »
Quote
So, you're telling me than Bob the Barovian will likley try to burn the dude who saved his life and healed his child from a deadly disease, because someone blessed his dagger?

You are viewing this from the wrong angle.

Group psychology is very different from individual one.

For instance, a "crowd", it has been proven individuals in one will have a drastically lower IQ when grouped, picture that with uneducated/illiterate fearful Barovians. You are looking at this from an individualistic angle, you will change Bob's views on Magic, then what?

You think Bob' will be open to others and try to convince them of something as ten folds more "Irrational/folly" than Flying Saucers and extra-terrestrials existing and them being "good"?.

« Last Edit: February 21, 2007, 03:38:31 PM by Eraldur »

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2007, 03:35:07 PM »
So, you're telling me than Bob the Barovian will likley try to burn the dude who saved his life and healed his child from a deadly disease, because someone blessed his dagger?

Okay then, how about my question - how do Barovians see the difference between healing magic and other magic?
I mean - if I use still spell - and bless my own weapon - how could they possibly:

A) Recognize it as arcane words.
B) Recognize it as something else than healing magic.

You're talking about quite extensive metagaming from Barovian players. They have 0, nada, nill, no possible way of differing an arcane casting from a simple warding gesture made in a foreign language. How do they know it's not elven? Or any other outlander language that's uttere when the mage does something that does NOT have a visual effect?

This bothers me. It seems like the general player population is prepared to metagame in order to be able to express thei fear of magic.

The Barovian would most likely not let that dude near his child in the first place. Even if it means the death of his child, the Barovian would not trust that caster enough to let him near his household. So, that situation is very unlikely.

Arcane magic and clerical magic are very different. Without metamagic feats, arcane magic is easily recognizable by the handgestures, the uttering of words in a strange tongue, the very foreign way of casting. Clerical magic on the other hand is channeled through prayers. Your question is: could a mage pose as a cleric? I reckon that with a high enough perform roll, he could pretend he is a cleric and pose as one..but I don't know of many mages with high perform rolls.

Our bards tend to do that however ; that's why casting healing spells as a bard doesn't raise your Outcast Rating here..because most bards pretend to be priests when they cast. They can roll perform and mimick a priest's gestures as best as they can.

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2007, 03:42:50 PM »
How does one tell the difference from healing and other types of magic?

Barovian native number five watches the outlander cleric cast on barovian native number one.  Sparkles start rising from Barovian native number one's head.  Barovian native number five's eyes bug out, "In the name of all that's sacred!  That witch it making his soul leak from his very body! LOOK!" he runs off screaming witch.

Hell, maybe the barovian (being already suspicious of those clerical fanatics) notices that when the cleric casts, no wounds close up.... Maybe he's frightened when he sees a bright white light sheathe the cleric's weapon for a moment.  Maybe he bugs out when he notices that the cleric's muscles almost burst from their armor after he completes the spell. Spells, for the most part, are very visible, especially when one can see the before and after.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2007, 03:45:50 PM by Demi-Lich »

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2007, 03:45:32 PM »
Because again. A priest (Or bard performing) Is going to be "Praying" openly to their god while laying their hands on the wounded.

An Arcanist on the other hand, whether performing or not.. even in praying to their gods, have to use hand gestures that are not common to a Clerics.

Not to mention. Wizards/Sorcerers cant cast healing spells... and it was stated that while Religions aren't loved, they are tolerated when it comes down to healing. Anything else and they get the same warding gestures from locals.. or should.


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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2007, 03:47:16 PM »
Yeah..to a Barovian, there is a world of difference between Ilie, the gentle kindhearted although a bit on the wacko side Morninglordian and that random priest of Ilmater who casts darkfire on the Barovian's butterknife out of nowhere.

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2007, 03:57:53 PM »
So, you're telling me than Bob the Barovian will likley try to burn the dude who saved his life and healed his child from a deadly disease, because someone blessed his dagger?

Okay then, how about my question - how do Barovians see the difference between healing magic and other magic?
I mean - if I use still spell - and bless my own weapon - how could they possibly:

A) Recognize it as arcane words.
B) Recognize it as something else than healing magic.

You're talking about quite extensive metagaming from Barovian players. They have 0, nada, nill, no possible way of differing an arcane casting from a simple warding gesture made in a foreign language. How do they know it's not elven? Or any other outlander language that's uttere when the mage does something that does NOT have a visual effect?

This bothers me. It seems like the general player population is prepared to metagame in order to be able to express thei fear of magic.
Arcane magic and divine magic, despite using the same sounds/animations in the NWN engine, are cast so differently from each other that even the backwards peasants of Barovia can tell the difference. A cleric prays to his god and/or presents his holy symbol, then casts his spell. A wizard/sorceror/bard has to do a bunch of funny hand gestures, speak a bunch of funny words, and possibly use some sort of esoteric material (e.g. sprinkling themselves with diamond dust or whatnot).

And only divine magic used for healing or dealing with undead is welcomed. A cleric who raises an army of undead skeletons or bestows a horrible curse isn't going to be viewed any better than a wizard.

As for convincing "Bob the Barovian" that arcane magic is "good": you might be able to convince Bob on his own, but that doesn't mean that because you did so, that society will miraculously turn on its ear. Bob would know better than to arouse suspicion among his countrymen.

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2007, 04:06:11 PM »
Quote from: Complete Magic- Arcane vs Divine
This isn't to say that arcane and divine magic have no differences, but rather that the differences appear in flavor instead of effect. The mystical gestures required by divine spells tend to be less expansive and complicated than those of their arcane counterparts, but no compelling theory explains why. Those who hold to the "component as lock" theory (mentioned above) suggest that divine casters need fewer innate restrictions on their spells, since a higher power has already entrusted them with the effect. For a divine spellcaster, preparing a spell is mostly a matter of the spirit. The spellcaster prays or meditates, entreating the divine source to provide power for the spell.


Quote from: Complete Magic - Arcane vs Divine
Once a spell has been cast, it's effectively impossible to tell whether it is arcane or divine. If an observer actually witnesses the casting, the spell's components might give a clue to the spell's nature; for example, divine spells typically employ a holy symbol as a focus for the spell. Otherwise, nothing distinguishes an arcane spell effect from a divine spell effect.

In that sense, the systems do well in representing the sources. [Thumbs up]

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2007, 07:17:35 PM »
I just pretend to be divine by healing and praying alot, especially when casting, and always touching my holy symbol when doing so. When prompted, I roll a bluff/perform to mask arcane gestures and words as simple prayer in some holy language or another. Of course, this is easier for me, as being a Bard I can cast healing spells which nicely disguises me for the most part.

Orchson

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2007, 09:56:31 PM »
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Arcane magic and clerical magic are very different. Without metamagic feats, arcane magic is easily recognizable by the handgestures, the uttering of words in a strange tongue, the very foreign way of casting.

For someone who knows the difference - yes. A Barovian is to ignorant for that. Or are you telling me that Barovians spend enough time around arcane casters to get to learn the difference? I mean, does he magically gain the insight because the cleric prays in a tounge he knows? It seems very far fetched to me. Compare to RL if you will. I can't tell the difference between a chinese prayer and a japanese rap lyrics. Why? Because I don't know either language, and both are very different from eachother. But not in -my- ears since I don't have a reference to either.

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Barovian native number five watches the outlander cleric cast on barovian native number one.  Sparkles start rising from Barovian native number one's head.  Barovian native number five's eyes bug out, "In the name of all that's sacred!  That witch it making his soul leak from his very body! LOOK!" he runs off screaming witch.

Flawed and useless example since I spoke about effects that didn't show.

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Hell, maybe the barovian (being already suspicious of those clerical fanatics) notices that when the cleric casts, no wounds close up....

You mean like when Zachea casts cure disease on an uninjured character?

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Because again. A priest (Or bard performing) Is going to be "Praying" openly to their god while laying their hands on the wounded.

In a foreign language. Which the Barovian has zero chance of differing from arcane words unless he 1) has heard arcane words a lot and 2) understand the language which commoners speak.

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Not to mention. Wizards/Sorcerers cant cast healing spells... and it was stated that while Religions aren't loved, they are tolerated when it comes down to healing. Anything else and they get the same warding gestures from locals.. or should.

I see no warding gestures when clerics cast greater restoration or cure disease. Spells with zero visible effects. I take it Zachea then utters hus prayers in Barovian since he's still alive and kicking. Because if he utters it in common, he's close to 100% same as an arcane caster buffing his intelligence. Odd gestures, even odder words, and nothing happens. Witchery!

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A wizard/sorceror/bard has to do a bunch of funny hand gestures, speak a bunch of funny words, and possibly use some sort of esoteric material (e.g. sprinkling themselves with diamond dust or whatnot).

Unless using a still spell, which was included in my example, at which point the arcanist rolls his thumbs while casting. Right?

I'm still not convinced. I just see a lot of constructed explenations basing itself on the notion that Barovians have the faintest clue about the difference between arcane and divine. You state that Barovians very rarley go to clerics - and in the same breath you're trying to convinve me that they at least go there often enough to be able to differ arcane from divine gestures.

How is that possible if the exposure they have to magic is so low that you claim?
Do they, or do they not hang around clerics a lot? If they do, then I can buy the notion about them knowing the difference. But if the general Barovian only visits a cleric in times of extreme need, then how would they know the difference? With no exposion, they have no frame of referance.

How's it gonna be.
Do they, or do they not hang around clerics casting magic a lot?

So far, it all just sounds like trying to validate an invalid conduct from Barovian players.
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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2007, 10:16:58 PM »
What exactly are you intent on proving, Orchson? That it doesn't make sense that Barovians accept divine magic but not arcane? Does it have to make sense? Ignorance often leads to irrational thinking. They accept clerical magic that heals (and that goes beyond healing physical wounds--cure disease would be considered a form of healing magic) and destroys/wards off the undead, but not other kinds. Any magic that is destructive, flashy, or worse, creates the undead, will be met with abject fear and possibly hostility.

Besides, that's the way it says Barovians are in all the Ravenloft books, and I see no reason to change that, regardless of whether it makes sense to you or not.

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Orchson

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2007, 12:01:44 AM »
No, no - I understand the acceptance of healing magic alone. What I am asking is how they could possibly make difference of it. You've clarified why they accept healing magic only. But I ask how they can tell the difference. There's the obvious situation with someone who's got a wound. Healing magic closes the wound. Non healing magic does not.

But I mean the casting in itself. It sounds like you think a Barovian would be able to tell a difference between an outlander cleric casting a spell, and an arcane caster casting a non-component-reliant spell. What I mean is - an outlander cleric casting cure disease on someone who's not hurt otherwise - should gain the same reaction as an outlander wizard casting say... Owls wisdom. The difference to outlanders who are used to magic is this:

Cleric: Mutters a prayer and makes a holy sign of X. (remove disease)
Wizard: Mutters arcane words and makes mystic signs of power. (owls wisdom)

While a Barovian would see this:

Cleric: Mutters in foreign and makes signs. (nothing happens)
Wizard: Mutters in foreign and makes signs. (nothing happens)

They would be fully unable to differ between the two, because they first off don't know common outlander language, and secondly aren't around casters of any kind (arcane especially) enough to be able to tell the difference between arcane words and simple outlander common. How could they? They don't speak either. Elven is as foreign to most Barovians as arcane words are. None of them make any sense and sound odd.

Which brings me to stilled spells that yield no outwards effect. How could they possibly know the difference between a Bard enhancing his charisma and the same Bard healing himself? Both make use of a prayer and then a light. Other than that - there is no obvious effect. Wounds closing - sure - if the Barovian has X-ray vision to see through full plate/chain/whatever armor.

I'm saying that in many cases, the reaction of Barovians are depenent on the knowledge of the player - not the Barovian. From his perspective - the spells should look the same because of ignorance. And if they don't look -exactly- the same, what does it matter? The Barovian isn't likley to have seen enough spells, wether arcane or clerical, to understand the difference.

Now, I am not debating their view on magic. But I am saying that whatever way they wish to treat such an effect - it should be the same for clerics and arcanists alike. The Barovian should react as strongly to a remove disease spell that isn't effecting him personally, as he should react to an owls wisdom spell not aimed at him.

After all, both include language he does not understand, and making signs of different sorts. To a religious person, it might be possible to see the difference between the clerics religious signs and the mages arcane ones. But to the atheist Barovian - it shouldn't. To him, it's just hand waving. Wether or not it's the cleric crossing himself, or the arcane caster finger flicking - it's still just moving in odd ways.

Now - mind you, I do think the fear of magic should remain. It's a part of the setting. But I wish people would stop metagaming knowing who is what, and who uses what sort of magic. When I cast an owls wisdom, I want the same reaction as when a cleric casts restoration/cure disease/remove curse, etc. Because frankly, the Barovian sees the exact same thing.

Wether that reaction is negative or not - doesn't matter. But I don't want people to go:
"Oh praise be dear cleric, for ridding my friend of this disease. Why don't you help me kill that witch over there that just enhanced his friends mind with dark dark magic!"
Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men.
- Martin Luther King Jr.

Fix the problem, not the blame.
- Japanese proverb.