Author Topic: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic  (Read 50614 times)

Doom

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #150 on: February 26, 2007, 03:54:23 AM »
Believe me, it's something -alot- of people struggle with though. Ravenloft is an odd, odd place...

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #151 on: February 26, 2007, 04:02:15 AM »
I'll give Ripkill one thing right though - it's scary as hell that these people refuse to evolve beyond their petty superstitions and values. But I dare to say - what is even more scary - is that there's places like this RL too. Exposure to new things and solutions does not denote people implementing it.

After all - we still have wars RL.
We all know better than to have wars. But we have them anyways.

Knowing a better solution does not mean you believe in it, or make use of it. Rather, people have a tendency of clinging to old ways and beliefs. As if those beliefs would save them from the possible horrors out there.

Naives of Ravenloft being no exception.
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Ripkill

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #152 on: February 26, 2007, 05:05:31 AM »
The replies only further what i am saying.  Of course I'm reading them.  By saying the excuses, you are listing what they are being brainwashed into believing, since no logical person would think that way.  You say them like the excuses are the bottom line, face value, but someone had to tell them that magic was evil.  Someone had to tell them that magic cursed you, magic made the caliban, etc, etc.  Someone is pulling the strings and has been for generations.  My point again.
"So I looked, and behold, a Pale horse.  And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him.  And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth..."

Orchson

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #153 on: February 26, 2007, 07:28:58 AM »
Quote
By saying the excuses, you are listing what they are being brainwashed into believing,

That's still assuming someone is brainwashing them. Stories, myths and legends can all be spurned through very different channels.

Quote
since no logical person would think that way.

Faith, superstition and/or beliefs has nothing to do with logic. And don't even go there, keep in mind that religion (wether or not they're true) are just as much faith as superstition is. Logic has nothing to do with it. Opposing that makes an ass of whomever opposes it. Einstein, Mendel, Darwin, Aristoteles, etc etc, were all intelligentl people, far outdoing any of us posting on these forums in logic. And yet, they all had a faith. While not being superstition like we normally view it, it's still included in having faith in a truth or a system you can't prove.

Claiming that "logical" people would dismiss already widly accepted facts is to disregard how the human mind works. Just the "fact" that you can summon beasts with magic is enough for learned natives to claim that beasts of the night is spurned from mages. After all, if they're not spawned by magic - where did they come from? Where do undead come from?

I'm sorry, but your arguments is just plain flawed Ripkill. Logic does not denote knowledge, and logic per definition would not tell anyone in Ravenloft that the dangers of the night does NOT have something to do with the presence of magic. In fact, even an outlander caster could easily construct a theory saying that it is indeed the casters that cause the high amount of magically empowered and blood thirsty monsters.

You sit on OOC knowledge about Ravenloft, hence, you can spur theories. But to your character, it could in fact be some mage somewhere creating these creatures on purpose, with a defined goal. It's the same for Natives. They believe that when someone casts magic, they are gathering their powers from demonic sources.

An illiterate people, with no prior knowledge about magic, brought up on stories about the evilness of magic - could in no way come to the conclusion that magic is just a tool.

If I told you the holocaust was a good thing, and that the Nazis were right, you'd probobly disagree with me, and even dislike me. The same reaction is gathered by Natives when confronted with magic. It shouldn't exist, and those times it do exists, it's always bad and will always result in demon summoning in the end.

It's neither misinformation fed to them by some higher power, or a notion of stupidty. It's simple human nature, and simple reactions from an illeterate population beset by dangers every day of their lives.
Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men.
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Fix the problem, not the blame.
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Doom

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #154 on: February 26, 2007, 02:19:01 PM »
I myself faced the misconception where I expected Strahd to be pulling lots and lots of evil overlord strings on the top. I found however this was not the case.

Suprising as it is, Strahd is apparently... more or less just chilling at the top. If you want an evil overlord with his insidious tendrils in everything, you want Azalin Rex. Strahd just sort of occasionally levies taxes and drycleans his one suit.

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #155 on: February 26, 2007, 02:38:05 PM »
I myself faced the misconception where I expected Strahd to be pulling lots and lots of evil overlord strings on the top. I found however this was not the case.

Suprising as it is, Strahd is apparently... more or less just chilling at the top. If you want an evil overlord with his insidious tendrils in everything, you want Azalin Rex. Strahd just sort of occasionally levies taxes and drycleans his one suit.

I DARE you, to sit around in public, and loudly talk shit about "The Devil Strahd".  Double Dare you!

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #156 on: February 26, 2007, 02:47:32 PM »
Guards will take care of you if you do that, not the Count.

Barovia's system is so well-done that even when the Count goes missing for years on end, the system still functions properly. A good example of that is when Van Richten went to read Strahd's diary (I, Strahd); Strahd hadn't been seen or heard of for the past 15 years and yet, the taxes were still being collected, the laws enforced and no signs of rebellions or anything had shown up. His rule is such that he doesn't need to be physically there to be obeyed; people do it out of fear. That's the beauty of Strahd, he is as distant as it gets, yet he is still respected and obeyed due to the fear factor. He's a looming presence, a distant threat.


Quote from: I, Strahd
In fifteen years, Lord Strahd had not collected the taxes, though the taxes had been dutifully compiled, the burgomaster proudly stated. There were many old wives' tales about burgomasters who had failed in this task and had come to very bad ends, indeed. Just wives' tales, to be sure, but sometimes there was truth to be found in such fancies. Anyway, none of the villagers, let alone the burgomaster, would risk complaint from their lord. The money, quite a lot of it by now, was stored in a special stone house in the center of town. Thieves? No. They had no fear of thieves. Even the gypsies would not dare to touch it.

Also in that time there had been few unexplained or unusual deaths, as had once been common. Young girls in the prime of their looks no longer disappeared without trace—unless they decided to elope with their lovers. Fifteen years of relative peace, fifteen years of nights that were not so dark as before, fifteen years that Strahd had… left them alone.

Some cautiously whispered that perhaps Death had caught up with him at last and taken him away. But if so, then why was the poisoned wall of mist still thick about the castle base? No one had a reply to that one, nor were any too curious to find out. One could ask the gypsies: they knew everything. Aye, and told everything. To Strahd. Best not to ask; you might not like the answer.

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #157 on: February 26, 2007, 02:52:25 PM »
When a tax collecter shows up, I'll be impressed.  The Shakedown would be hillarious. 

~Rex  :twisted:
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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #158 on: February 26, 2007, 02:55:41 PM »
Taxes are already levied in the bank and the rate is rather high already. Anyhow, this is not a discussion about game mechanic taxes, but rather about Barovian culture.

JironGhrad

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #159 on: February 26, 2007, 02:57:03 PM »
If I told you the holocaust was a good thing, and that the Nazis were right, you'd probobly disagree with me, and even dislike me. The same reaction is gathered by Natives when confronted with magic. It shouldn't exist, and those times it do exists, it's always bad and will always result in demon summoning in the end.

In point of fact... my Grandfather was present when they liberated Auschwitz...  The locals denied that the camp was even there AT ALL, and even after seeing it for themselves, they refused to believe that they knew about it and should have done something.  The natives are the same... especially since there ARE magical explainations for the creatures... Necromancers make undead, Magic makes liches who also make undead, ergo Magic=undead.  And there's "logic".
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Ripkill

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #160 on: February 26, 2007, 04:09:37 PM »
I made like 5 paragraphs for this, but decided it was beating a dead horse.
"So I looked, and behold, a Pale horse.  And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him.  And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth..."

Rex

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #161 on: February 26, 2007, 08:23:28 PM »
I made like 5 paragraphs for this, but decided it was beating a dead horse.

Spill It.  Enquiring Minds wish to know.  Besides, its just a forum.  Hmmmm, come to think of it wasn't Julius Cesare in a Forum once?

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #162 on: February 26, 2007, 08:26:12 PM »
*sharpens his daggers and dons his toga*
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Doom

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #163 on: February 26, 2007, 08:30:38 PM »
Et Tu, Johnus?

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #164 on: February 26, 2007, 08:32:41 PM »
On topic please guys, Barovia, Player choices and Magic.

Thanks.

Ravenous

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #165 on: February 27, 2007, 02:49:33 PM »
We all know barovians are idiots.. Lets leave that behind ;)

Personally I think removing the +2 weapons from Elites, and normal guards(yes those have them to, at least they did) would further the setting. To me it makes perfect sense that barovians would fear the creatures of the night more if they couldnt hurt them.. Imagining the barovians seeing their best warriors trying to hold of a few werewolves but instead falling one by one even though their weapons bite home every strike but not making any wounds.
As it is, it would at least require a Werewolf Lord to finish one Elite Guard.
As it is now, natives hunt mages when they gather a mob and get drunk. A great warrior(elite guard) fells a werewolf with his nice and not very mundane looking(probably) sword and goes to boast at the tavern or at the barracks to his fellow guardsmen with similiar swords. As guards are as stupid as peasants, wouldnt the conclusion become that they also formed a mob and went out to rid the world of werewolves, since obviously they can do it, just as the normal peasants every now and then chops up a mage..
If they "think the same they would act the same".
Let them have the normal guard weapons, and give out magic to named NPCs only since that actually keeps them "special"..
Maybe add a few named "heroic" guards that have proven themselves, that walk the streets, and have the +2 weapons.. That would to make NPCs that people would encounter and fear/admire.. Just an idea..

Edit: Adding: Another reason... Unnamed NPCs are not special in any way and therefor should not have anything special, beyond the norm of their faction, meaning the starting equipment of the faction.. Named NPCs and PCs are persons that have risen above the rank and file and therefor could have special items like silver, magic weapons etc.. 2 or 3 Elite guards with normal guard weapons can handle just about everything easily but those things they rightfully fear, witches and the other creatures of the night and that makes them equipped for the job that they are supposed to do.
"Heroic" named guards could potentially deal with the other things, but keep a limit on them(Like Demi-Lich said 5 is a nice number), make them resistant to magic. Generally make them about as skilled as an Elite but add some other properties to them, such as SR, give them a few healing pots of a decent strength etc so they can last.. But please then, make them only show up against major threats, not for example a lone werewolf smashing at the gates :lol:
//As pointed out, these are just ideas that I personally think would further the horror feel and keep magic "special".. (even if there are alot of mages atm)
« Last Edit: February 28, 2007, 08:46:30 AM by Sadek »

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #166 on: February 27, 2007, 03:20:32 PM »
I actually really like the idea of "Heroic" guards.  In addition to PC guards... have maybe a pool of 5 named guards only one of which would be on the streets at any given time.

Maybe equip the elite guards with either silver weapons or weapons with +1 vs. undead rather than the full blown +2 eb swords.

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #167 on: February 27, 2007, 06:26:53 PM »
I've lead monters to the NPC guards before for help.


I agree - lets make the guards as vunerable as we are...  it would be nice to see those guys strive and die... which triggers the big boys to roll out in 1-2 minutes.

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #168 on: April 09, 2007, 03:10:29 AM »
What about Bards ? Is there magic considered witchcraft ? or songs of power ? Ive been told bardic healing is ok, but have heard conflicting reports on other magics.

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #169 on: April 09, 2007, 03:13:49 AM »
What about Bards ? Is there magic considered witchcraft ? or songs of power ? Ive been told bardic healing is ok, but have heard conflicting reports on other magics.

Quote
Though Barovians believe in magic, the vast majority of them have never seen it in practice, at least outside of the local cleric. Most folk regard magic as a secret as old as time and riddled with spiritual risks too terrible to contemplate. Arcane magic is practiced only in secret in Barovia, as the common folk believe that all such power is a gift granted by demons. These fell blessings can be bestowed in the womb (sorcerers) or deliberately sought out by the deranged (wizards), but it makes little difference to the fearful peasant mind. Even bards must be careful not to reveal themselves as anything but wandering performers in this land. Since popular opinion holds that arcane spellcasters are unquestionably the minions of evil, the agents of the boyars and burgomasters rarely discourage violence against them. Villages are rife with tales of suspected spellcasters lynched in full view of idle Barovian soldiers.

Taty

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Re: Barovia, Player choices, and Magic
« Reply #170 on: April 09, 2007, 03:27:03 AM »
T : Thanks for the quick response, that helps alot.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 03:30:21 AM by Cindi »