Author Topic: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix  (Read 21118 times)

Mentfrost

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2017, 09:48:07 PM »
Perhaps the rarity of shields has nothing to do with mechanics and instead has to do with what people prefer for their character aesthetics?
I can back this up, shields suck, why would you willingly use a shield when parry just looks so much cooler!?
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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2017, 09:53:24 PM »
Tower Shield +3 to +8 [+7 becoming the base at level 14]

Nitpick: +7 isn't the base, it's the limit now that there's no more +5 from varnishes or effects from level 20 clerics.

I think it'd actually be quite nice if varnishes could still give +5 to shields (and only shields); it would give the greater magic varnishes a more pronounced niche than just being slightly better than the strong magical varnishes.
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FlattedFifth

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2017, 11:11:21 PM »
When you factor in feat investment, its balanced.

There is no class on this server that cannot very easily afford 2 feats. The skill point investment is MUCH more of a factor than the feat investment, and still doesnt make it balanced.

Again, the only way a shield using character can get greater AC than a two weapon build or two-handed build is through temporary effects. And if you're going to talk temporary effects, lets talk about bracers of +2 parry, off-hand dagger of +2 parry, bard song adding skill points, and Cat's Grace. See? It goes both ways, Parry builds get the temp effect boosts too, so can we stop talking about varnishes and magic vestment as if they balance anything? They don't.

So, a shield using character has the same ac as a Parry build greatsword user, and an enchanted shield using char (though lets face it, enchanting something you drop when you die isn't often recommended) has the same AC as the Parry build two weapon user. That's just not right. It's not balanced, and it doesn't make IC sense. That rogue can deflect blows with his off-hand dagger better than the bloke with the shield? Puh-lease.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 11:22:46 PM by FlattedFifth »

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2017, 11:21:55 PM »
When you factor in feat investment, its balanced.

There is no class on this server that cannot very easily afford 2 feats. The skill point investment is MUCH more of a factor than the feat investment, and still doesnt make it balanced.

Again, the only way a shield using character can get greater AC than a two weapon build or two-handed build is through temporary effects. That's just not right. It's not balanced, and it doesn't make IC sense. That rogue can parry blows with his off-hand dagger better than the bloke with the shield? Puh-lease.

A shield will get you a permanant +7ac
Parry on a two hander needs 2 feats and gear slots to hit the cap of +5
To get +7 from parry, you need to invest at least four feats

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2017, 11:24:46 PM »
Going to play the devil's advocate here.

It doesn't matter that if it's "balanced" or not. It matters that it makes 'sense' more than anything.

What are you going to trust to stop a great sword coming at your left side that you can't evade? A flimsy parrying dagger, or a tower shield? Lol. Something should be done about shields, regardless. I find it absolutely pointless to have one because one blade apparently = +5 ac (enchanted tower shield?).
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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2017, 11:30:46 PM »
Enchanted Tower Shield is +7


Dual wielders invest a ton of feats to have this. I suppose it should be worked toward what makes sense, but I really don't want to see Rogue / Fighters have more power. Just my honest two cents.

FlattedFifth

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2017, 11:31:11 PM »
When you factor in feat investment, its balanced.

There is no class on this server that cannot very easily afford 2 feats. The skill point investment is MUCH more of a factor than the feat investment, and still doesnt make it balanced.

Again, the only way a shield using character can get greater AC than a two weapon build or two-handed build is through temporary effects. That's just not right. It's not balanced, and it doesn't make IC sense. That rogue can parry blows with his off-hand dagger better than the bloke with the shield? Puh-lease.

A shield will get you a permanant +7ac
Parry on a two hander needs 2 feats and gear slots to hit the cap of +5
To get +7 from parry, you need to invest at least four feats

And fighters get a bonus feat every single level here. Most other classes get ample feats to handle this as well.

Again, it's not balanced. The choice of shield or no shield is supposed to be a choice between offense and defense. Currently, this is a choice no one really has to make. Everyone can have the best of both worlds if they try, and most do. I'm not suggesting that Parry be nerfed, because I don't want every existing high level char to suddenly be weakened. I think most would find that upsetting. I merely suggest that a shield build be given the option of greater defense to make up for the greater weight and lesser offense. Is that so bad? Two feats for shield build, 2 AC.

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2017, 11:33:23 PM »
When you factor in feat investment, its balanced.

There is no class on this server that cannot very easily afford 2 feats. The skill point investment is MUCH more of a factor than the feat investment, and still doesnt make it balanced.

Again, the only way a shield using character can get greater AC than a two weapon build or two-handed build is through temporary effects. That's just not right. It's not balanced, and it doesn't make IC sense. That rogue can parry blows with his off-hand dagger better than the bloke with the shield? Puh-lease.

A shield will get you a permanant +7ac
Parry on a two hander needs 2 feats and gear slots to hit the cap of +5
To get +7 from parry, you need to invest at least four feats

And fighters get a bonus feat every single level here. Most other classes get ample feats to handle this as well.

Again, it's not balanced. The choice of shield or no shield is supposed to be a choice between offense and defense. Currently, this is a choice no one really has to make. Everyone can have the best of both worlds if they try, and most do. I'm not suggesting that Parry be nerfed, because I don't want every existing high level char to suddenly be weakened. I think most would find that upsetting. I merely suggest that a shield build be given the option of greater defense to make up for the greater weight and lesser offense. Is that so bad? Two feats for shield build, 2 AC.

You can get shields with DR. You can't get a weapon with DR.
Skill point investment is costly.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 11:35:17 PM by Amon-Si »

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2017, 11:35:09 PM »
Except fighters don't dish out good damage with a mechanically proper dual wield builds unless they buffed themselves, and even then there is a slew of issues. Shields are used legitimately by many people, to great effect, with damage that nears that of one without. For an example, I have a longsword parry build that does enough damage to even compete with a greatsword. With a shield, it'd be even better.

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2017, 11:36:20 PM »
Enchanted Tower Shield is +7


Dual wielders invest a ton of feats to have this. I suppose it should be worked toward what makes sense, but I really don't want to see Rogue / Fighters have more power. Just my honest two cents.

Not a matter of a certain class combo having more strength. It's about making shields more appealing while having a distinct defense against someone going full blown assault on you and having the same defenses practically.
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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2017, 11:39:23 PM »
Enchanted Tower Shield is +7


Dual wielders invest a ton of feats to have this. I suppose it should be worked toward what makes sense, but I really don't want to see Rogue / Fighters have more power. Just my honest two cents.

Not a matter of a certain class combo having more strength. It's about making shields more appealing while having a distinct defense against someone going full blown assault on you and having the same defenses practically.


I don't see what's not appealing about shields. You save feats, a skill, and have the same AC at the end all - more than a two hander, and you can get DR. You have the defense, and going up to a total of +9 is, in my honest opinion, too much.

FlattedFifth

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2017, 11:43:03 PM »
HEY! How about if we have a defensive, shield using build option, but increase the number of feats required and give pure class fighters a little something extra?



New Feat: Shield Mastery
Requirements: Base Attack Bonus 6 or Better, Shield Proficiency, Dodge Feat, Expertise Feat
Use: Automatic
Description: The character has improved the skill of not just clumsily blocking blows with a shield, but using the weight and momentum of the shield to help move in combat: angling the shield to cause the opponent's weapon to slide off, moving the shield into the opponent like an active part of combat, and properly absorbing blows to increase the effectiveness of the shield.
Effect: Whenever the character has a shield equipped*, the character receives a +1 dodge* bonus to armor class. If that character is a Pure Class Fighter, that character also receives Damage Reduction 1/-


New Feat: Greater Shield Mastery
Requirements: Base Attack Bonus 8 or Better, Shield Mastery Feat
Use: Automatic
Description: The character has mastered the use of a shield, making the shield almost a part of her as she fights.
Effect: Whenever the character has a shield equipped*, the character receives an additional +1 dodge* bonus to armor class (total of 2 from both feats together). If that character is a Pure Class Fighter, that character also receives Damage Reduction 2/-


Note that this option increases the feat investment to 4, requires at least 13 Dexterity and 13 Intelligence, and gives pure class fighters a little bit of extra love while still being useful to those who are not pure class fighters.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 11:56:58 PM by FlattedFifth »

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2017, 11:45:40 PM »
Were I to suggest anything, I would suggest adding % immunity based on the weight class of each shield. 5% for small, 10% for large, 15% for tower shields. They should make up for that weight instead of just shoving it into a magic bag when you're done using it at the very least. If this is the case with some shields already, I have no idea, but some input from a Developer would be nice.
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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2017, 11:46:33 PM »
Were I to suggest anything, I would suggest adding % immunity based on the weight class of each shield. 5% for small, 10% for large, 15% for tower shields. They should make up for that weight instead of just shoving it into a magic bag when you're done using it at the very least. If this is the case with some shields already, I have no idea, but some input from a Developer would be nice.

+1

FlattedFifth

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2017, 11:55:58 PM »
Were I to suggest anything, I would suggest adding % immunity based on the weight class of each shield. 5% for small, 10% for large, 15% for tower shields. They should make up for that weight instead of just shoving it into a magic bag when you're done using it at the very least. If this is the case with some shields already, I have no idea, but some input from a Developer would be nice.

This is also an excellent idea, and I like it a lot, though this would not require any feats. A lot of people seem to be fixated on the number of feats the parry build requires and my pointing out that feats are cheap here seems to be falling on deaf ears.

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2017, 12:13:03 AM »
Not exactly.  The stat line is rather specific.  For example, I couldn't get most of these feats listed above for my paladin based on the steep requirements of the stat line.  And I'm a-okay with that tbh.

It's not so much falling on deaf ears, as falling on very experienced ears in this case.  Pav for example is a monster at build design.  If he says its very strong, then he's probably right.

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2017, 12:15:51 AM »
Were I to suggest anything, I would suggest adding % immunity based on the weight class of each shield. 5% for small, 10% for large, 15% for tower shields. They should make up for that weight instead of just shoving it into a magic bag when you're done using it at the very least. If this is the case with some shields already, I have no idea, but some input from a Developer would be nice.

Personally, I think that is a much better idea than adding feat. It brings something different than just AC and gives the shield something Parry can't give, which sort of give shield an advantage over parry. Sounds like something that is much more likely to happen than adding feat to me, if anything is changed that is.

I'm not seeing that shield necessarily needs to have an advantage over parry or that they need a boost, just saying I think that this is a much better idea than adding feat.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 12:19:45 AM by Iluvatar »
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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2017, 12:19:12 AM »
and have the same AC at the end

There's the operative phrase. That one right there. 18 Strength character with Greatsword = 1d12 + 6 damage. 18 Strength character with Longsword and tower  shield = 1d8 + 4 damage. Weight of greatsword, about 12 lbs, I believe? Weight of tower shield + longsword = minimum 30 lbs. These two should not EVER have the same AC on a permanent, non-buffed basis.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 12:23:13 AM by FlattedFifth »

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2017, 12:24:15 AM »
You're right, the tower shield has more.

By the time the greatsword user peaks at +5, which is very difficult without some dexterity and lighter armor, the tower shield user will have an enchanted tower shield +7 to AC.

FlattedFifth

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2017, 12:30:27 AM »
You're right, the tower shield has more.

By the time the greatsword user peaks at +5, which is very difficult without some dexterity and lighter armor, the tower shield user will have an enchanted tower shield +7 to AC.

You know a lot of people who enchant something that drops when they die? And by level 12 I could get +4 ac from parry, with my character's 14 dex and half plate.  Not difficult then to get +5 by lvl 17 without even raising my dex above the 14 it was at character creation. If I wanted to go the 2 handed route, I could get +7 if I raised my dex at lvls 8, 12, and 16, which would still leave my character with 16 strength.

No, you can't convince me that parry isn't over-powered. Which would you rather see? Parry nerfed, or shields be made a bit more worth the added weight and lowered offense?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 12:34:13 AM by FlattedFifth »

Pav

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2017, 12:32:57 AM »
It's really too bad that no one can actually use someone else's enchanted item.

Yes, people enchant their items, very frequently. Please do not speak of concurrent server meta when you confess to be a new player, and are, by all sights, indeed a new player.

A thing I suggest to new players, friends and others, is to wait and see how things play out, and observe, instead of immediately jumping to baseless conclusions.

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2017, 12:33:41 AM »
You're right, the tower shield has more.

By the time the greatsword user peaks at +5, which is very difficult without some dexterity and lighter armor, the tower shield user will have an enchanted tower shield +7 to AC.

You know a lot of people who enchant something that drops when they die? And by level 12 I could get +4 ac from parry, with my character's 14 dex and half plate.

Level 12.
15 Base Parry
+2 Dex
-7 from half plate
That's only +1 parry AC because you're leaving out the two feats you need to take it to +3 and the -at least- one wasted gear slot on a +3 parry bonus.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 12:36:51 AM by Amon-Si »

FlattedFifth

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2017, 12:38:24 AM »
It's really too bad that no one can actually use someone else's enchanted item.

Yes, people enchant their items, very frequently. Please do not speak of concurrent server meta when you confess to be a new player, and are, by all sights, indeed a new player.

A thing I suggest to new players, friends and others, is to wait and see how things play out, and observe, instead of immediately jumping to baseless conclusions.

I'm actually not a new player. I played here over 5 years ago, then stopped because RL got too busy, stayed away about 5 years, then came back and couldn't remember my login name. That's the trouble with being on numerous forums and having a different login and pass for each.

Now, will anyone explain why it's even remotely ok for someone who is using two weapons to have the same ac as someone who's using an enchanted tower shield? Anyone?

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2017, 12:40:44 AM »
and have the same AC at the end

There's the operative phrase. That one right there. 18 Strength character with Greatsword = 1d12 + 6 damage. 18 Strength character with Longsword and tower  shield = 1d8 + 4 damage. Weight of greatsword, about 12 lbs, I believe? Weight of tower shield + longsword = minimum 30 lbs. These two should not EVER have the same AC on a permanent, non-buffed basis.

With all due respect, your opinion isn't fact and the majority of people here seem to disagree with your assessment.  You may feel strongly that things are unbalanced but generally speaking when the majority of people agree on the state of something, that speaks more for it being balanced accordingly to the satisfaction of the community than not.

You seem to be a new player.  You're tossing about a lot of claims that just aren't factually consistent and I think if when you've been on the server as long as some of the people responding to you you'll see that.  Fact of the matter is you have no evidence to suggest the lack of shield use is purely - or even half - to do with any form of mechanic.  You're also a quite bit off on the assumption that only a small amount of people enchant their items that can be dropped.

I think maybe you should play a bit more, get a better feel for things.




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Re: Possible Shield/parry rebalance discussion
« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2017, 12:41:41 AM »
It's really too bad that no one can actually use someone else's enchanted item.

Yes, people enchant their items, very frequently. Please do not speak of concurrent server meta when you confess to be a new player, and are, by all sights, indeed a new player.

A thing I suggest to new players, friends and others, is to wait and see how things play out, and observe, instead of immediately jumping to baseless conclusions.

I'm actually not a new player. I played here over 5 years ago, then stopped because RL got too busy, stayed away about 5 years, then came back and couldn't remember my login name. That's the trouble with being on numerous forums and having a different login and pass for each.

Now, will anyone explain why it's even remotely ok for someone who is using two weapons to have the same ac as someone who's using an enchanted tower shield? Anyone?

Because that person who has invested and trained extensively in a skill can and should have skills equal to or better than someone who strapped some wood to his arm and went herr durr shield.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 12:54:28 AM by Amon-Si »