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Author Topic: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix  (Read 21122 times)

FlattedFifth

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Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« on: February 06, 2017, 11:12:32 AM »
I've noticed that very, very few characters beyond a certain level use shields. Two-handed weapons predominate. Figured out that, even with heavy armor, around level 12 I could be using a greatsword and still have the same AC as with a Tower Shield +1 if I get a certain set of bracers and two feats, improved parry and skill focus parry.

There's supposed to be a defensive advantage to using a shield to make up for the lesser offensive capabilities when compared to a two handed weapon. Right now, there's zero advantage to using a shield and the disadvantages of extra weight and lower offense. I'm not suggesting we anger the whole server by nerfing Parry, rather, I suggest adding a couple feats to allow people to choose a more defense-oriented character. This would allow for more fighting styles instead of seeing nearly everyone using greatswords.



New Feat: Shield Mastery
Requirements: Base Attack Bonus 6 or Better, Shield Proficiency
Use: Automatic
Description: The character has improved the skill of not just clumsily blocking blows with a shield, but angling the shield to cause the opponent's weapon to slide off, moving the shield into the opponent like an active part of combat, and properly absorbing blows to increase the effectiveness of the shield.
Effect: Whenever the character has a shield equipped*, the character receives a +1 dodge* bonus to armor class.


New Feat: Greater Shield Mastery
Requirements: Base Attack Bonus 8 or Better, Shield Mastery Feat
Use: Automatic
Description: The character has mastered the use of a shield, making the shield almost a part of her as she fights.
Effect: Whenever the character has a shield equipped*, the character receives an additional +1 dodge* bonus to armor class (total of 2 from both feats together).


((* The feat should check that the base item of thing equipped in the shield slot is one of the three types of shields, this should not apply to off-hand weapons, torches, fashion accessories, et cetera

** + dodge ac, not shield ac, because if the shield already has a bonus, like thick chitin shields or the Akiri Sun shield +2, then the feat granting + shield ac will not stack. Dodge AC stacks with everything including itself, though, so this will not negate spells like haste))

In terms of how this will affect the server, it would mean that high lvl characters using shields will have, on average, an armor class 2 higher than those using two-handed or two weapons. Obviously those not using shields will still be doing more damage than those who do.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 01:46:59 PM by FlattedFifth »

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2017, 11:24:44 AM »
I'd actually go one step further with this one and make it a fighter only feat.  It would certainly give fighters a bit more of an interesting flavour, for certain.  As paladins and clerics can get extremely high ac thanks to the power of divine shield not to mention spells, they more than make up for the deficit.  And barbarians get the frankly fantastic barbarian feats.  Rangers have their spell selections such as barkskin, and two weapon fighting feats.  I'm probably missing a combat class in there - but this would be a really great one for fighters, to make them just that bit tankier.

Admittedly a lot of these deficits can be overcome by having some buffing help.  For example, an enchanted shield makes up a huge difference in AC that the parry bonus won't reach.  And a cleric can buff a combat classes shield 'and' armour but that requires them as well.

Overall though, I kinda like the idea.  If it was for fighters I would like it even more.  Show the fighters some love!

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, here's a fix
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2017, 11:34:12 AM »
Totally agree with this, considering how parry is overwhelming compared to shield, which can also be so heavy. And adding it as fighter only would make it more flavor for fighters, and interesting for them.

+1

FlattedFifth

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2017, 11:37:15 AM »
I'd actually go one step further with this one and make it a fighter only feat.  It would certainly give fighters a bit more of an interesting flavour, for certain.  As paladins and clerics can get extremely high ac thanks to the power of divine shield not to mention spells, they more than make up for the deficit.  And barbarians get the frankly fantastic barbarian feats.  Rangers have their spell selections such as barkskin, and two weapon fighting feats.  I'm probably missing a combat class in there - but this would be a really great one for fighters, to make them just that bit tankier.

Admittedly a lot of these deficits can be overcome by having some buffing help.  For example, an enchanted shield makes up a huge difference in AC that the parry bonus won't reach.  And a cleric can buff a combat classes shield 'and' armour but that requires them as well.

Overall though, I kinda like the idea.  If it was for fighters I would like it even more.  Show the fighters some love!

I think fighters already get enough love from the massive amount of feats they get, and being the only ones able to specialize in weapons. What I think the server needs is more build options that are not class specific and also not dependent upon spellcasting ability.

Maybe though, there could be a 3rd feat that IS fighter specific,

New Feat: Expert Shield Mastery
Requirements: Fighter class Only, Base Attack Bonus 10 or Better, Greater Shield Mastery
Use: Automatic
Description:The Fighter has perfected the art of cushioning blows with her shield, flexing her arm to reduce the shock.
Effect: Whenever the character has a shield equipped*, the character receives Damage Reduction 2/-


Making the first two feats I suggested be fighter ONLY would basically mean that ONLY fighters are using shields, which is not what I'm aiming for. More diversity and build options for all, not some.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 11:41:35 AM by FlattedFifth »

Night of Reod

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, here's a fix
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2017, 11:38:41 AM »
 I don't think that it is a good idea to have such feats added into the game. It is true that you can get a similar AC to that of using a shield with two handed weapons and dual wielding, but you are forgetting that it often requires an investment of at least two feats and skill points. Using a shield enables you to spend your feats and skill points elsewhere, which can be quite valuable, and an enchanted shield ends up having one more AC than a two handed weapon does, and with a level 16 cleric it can potentially have two more AC.

 What I would love to see, however, is a way to make the large and small shields relevant. Perhaps a feat could be added to let you use your parry skill alongside of a shield up to a cap? That way, players can trade a feat and some skill points for the benefit of lower weight or simply flavour, such as a rapier and buckler duelist, without losing AC.

 Another suggestion would be to add utility feats for shield users, such as bonuses to discipline or other combat relevant skills while using a shield, or add a shield bash feat which gives a bonus to knockdown attacks much like improved knockdown does.

 Also, do keep in mind that fighters get extra feats, which means it is less of a problem to invest feats in parry compared other classes. I think fighters are naturally more inclined to use dual wielding and two handed weapons, which makes sense as they require more drilling and martial training, something the fighter specializes in, hence the extra feats. I think fighters have their place as a key part of many multiclass builds, or characters that can perform multiple roles depending on the party composition. A full fighter has enough feats to get expertise and even improved expertise for frontlining, all the dual wielding feats and archery feats as well as some more, which gives them quite a bit of utility and flexibility.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 11:46:54 AM by Night of Reod »

FlattedFifth

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, here's a fix
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2017, 11:46:02 AM »
I don't think that it is a good idea to have such feats added into the game. It is true that you can get a similar AC to that of using a shield with two handed weapons and dual wielding, but you are forgetting that it often requires an investment of at least two feats and skill points. Using a shield enables you to spend your feats and skill points elsewhere, which can be quite valuable, and an enchanted shield ends up having one more AC than a two handed weapon does, and with a level 16 cleric it can potentially have two more AC.

 What I would love to see, however, is a way to make the large and small shields relevant. Perhaps a feat could be added to let you use your parry skill alongside of a shield up to a cap? That way, players can trade a feat and some skill points for the benefit of lower weight or simply flavour, such as a rapier and buckler duelist, without losing AC.

 Another suggestion would be to add utility feats for shield users, such as bonuses to discipline or other combat relevant skills while using a shield, or add a shield bash feat which gives a bonus to knockdown attacks much like improved knockdown does.

What I'm suggesting also requires the investment of two feats, and you can't get a similar bonus to shields with Parry, you can get an identical one. Sure, the investment of skill points in Parry is a drawback, but only a very, very minor one compared to the benefits. No, there needs to be more advantage to shields to make up for their weight and decreased offense. The very fact that you see so few of them on higher level characters proves that they're currently not worth it, which makes the server way too homogeneous.

Honesly, I don't know why anyone would argue against an idea that harms none and gives more build options to all.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 11:49:19 AM by FlattedFifth »

Night of Reod

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, here's a fix
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2017, 11:51:59 AM »
I don't think that it is a good idea to have such feats added into the game. It is true that you can get a similar AC to that of using a shield with two handed weapons and dual wielding, but you are forgetting that it often requires an investment of at least two feats and skill points. Using a shield enables you to spend your feats and skill points elsewhere, which can be quite valuable, and an enchanted shield ends up having one more AC than a two handed weapon does, and with a level 16 cleric it can potentially have two more AC.

 What I would love to see, however, is a way to make the large and small shields relevant. Perhaps a feat could be added to let you use your parry skill alongside of a shield up to a cap? That way, players can trade a feat and some skill points for the benefit of lower weight or simply flavour, such as a rapier and buckler duelist, without losing AC.

Edit: Also, do keep in mind that there are some shields with unique bonuses as well, and enchanted shields also provide a bonus to saves and discipline and concentration skills on top of their AC.

 Another suggestion would be to add utility feats for shield users, such as bonuses to discipline or other combat relevant skills while using a shield, or add a shield bash feat which gives a bonus to knockdown attacks much like improved knockdown does.

What I'm suggesting also requires the investment of two feats, and you can't get a similar bonus to shields with Parry, you can get an identical one. No, there needs to be more advantage to shields to make up for their weight and decreased offense. The very fact that you see so few of them on higher level characters proves that they're currently not worth it, which makes the server way too homogeneous.

 I can think of quite a number of high level characters who use shields and I have one myself, and the advantage of the shields over other types is that they don't require feat and skill point investment. I don't think they need more power than that, at least in the AC department, as that would likely push the server in the other direction, where most people would start using shields because they can easily get considerably more AC than two handed weapons and dual wielding. I would be in favor of having utility feats added for shield users to give them more power, as I said, but I think anything more than a +1 increase to all saves while using a shield or 5 points or so increase to a combat skill point would be over buffing the shields.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 11:55:23 AM by Night of Reod »

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, here's a fix
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2017, 11:55:07 AM »
I like the thought of adding shield specific feats for more reasons to play a pureclass fighter. Let that martial training pay off!

Honestly, I do think that parry adds, in the end, more AC than a shield user can muster, so it would be beneficial, I think, if those that invest the time in shield can at the end, still hold an advantage in defensive combat.

FlattedFifth

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, here's a fix
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2017, 12:04:39 PM »
I can think of quite a number of high level characters who use shields and I have one myself, and the advantage of the shields over other types is that they don't require feat and skill point investment. I don't think they need more power than that, at least in the AC department, as that would likely push the server in the other direction, where most people would start using shields because they can easily get considerably more AC than two handed weapons and dual wielding. I would be in favor of having utility feats added for shield users to give them more power, as I said, but I think anything more than a +1 increase to all saves while using a shield or 5 points or so increase to a combat skill point would be over buffing the shields.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, I don't think the feats I suggested would be over buffing shields, I think it would mean people having to choose between offense and defense, as they should. Right now, it's pretty easy to have it both ways. Like I said, I can very, very easily have +4 ac from parry by level 12 even in heavy armor.

Right now, people do not have to choose whether to build for offense or defense, anyone can easily have it both ways. Right now, people are merely choosing either to have more offense + less weight or to have skill points + more weight + less offense.  Everyone on this server can spare two feats, t.he feats are not a factor and even my own suggestion is for 2 feats in the opposite direction.

I still think my original suggestion adds more variety and choice without over-powering, and you're never going to convince me that having an ac 2 higher in exchange for using a weapon that does a bit less than 3/4 the damage is an unfair bargain.

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, here's a fix
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2017, 12:14:35 PM »
I'd call these acceptable if the feats were limited to the Fighter class.



Night of Reod

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, here's a fix
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2017, 12:21:40 PM »
I like the thought of adding shield specific feats for more reasons to play a pureclass fighter. Let that martial training pay off!

Honestly, I do think that parry adds, in the end, more AC than a shield user can muster, so it would be beneficial, I think, if those that invest the time in shield can at the end, still hold an advantage in defensive combat.

 I would be more in favor of nerfing dual wielding to cap at 6 shield AC instead of 7, rather then giving shields more AC.

I can think of quite a number of high level characters who use shields and I have one myself, and the advantage of the shields over other types is that they don't require feat and skill point investment. I don't think they need more power than that, at least in the AC department, as that would likely push the server in the other direction, where most people would start using shields because they can easily get considerably more AC than two handed weapons and dual wielding. I would be in favor of having utility feats added for shield users to give them more power, as I said, but I think anything more than a +1 increase to all saves while using a shield or 5 points or so increase to a combat skill point would be over buffing the shields.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, I don't think the feats I suggested would be over buffing shields, I think it would mean people having to choose between offense and defense, as they should. Right now, it's pretty easy to have it both ways. Like I said, I can very, very easily have +4 ac from parry by level 12 even in heavy armor.

Right now, people do not have to choose whether to build for offense or defense, anyone can easily have it both ways. Right now, people are merely choosing either to have more offense + less weight or to have skill points + more weight + less offense.  Everyone on this server can spare two feats, t.he feats are not a factor and even my own suggestion is for 2 feats in the opposite direction.

I still think my original suggestion adds more variety and choice without over-powering, and you're never going to convince me that having an ac 2 higher in exchange for using a weapon that does a bit less than 3/4 the damage is an unfair bargain.

 People seem to be in favour of having more versatility with builds, and giving shields a clear AC advantage over other types of melee combat, for example a shield user buffed by a level 16 cleric can have 4 more AC than a two handed weapon user if the suggested feats were to be added, will only serve to either make shields the only serious frontliner builds, or upset server balance for high end content, and end up having less viable build options rather than more of them. Keep in mind that you will be fighting against multiple enemies more than likely, and for high end content, chances are they will be dealing more damage per hit than a two handed weapon user would. Having the extra two AC points can reduce your chances of getting hit by attacks to a quarter of what it would be without it, and make you immune to critical hits from enemies, and taking 10 damage less per round on average is much better than doing 10 damage more per round on average, especially considering the enemies you are fighting have a much bigger combined hp pool than you will have.

 As for the parry AC, I managed to get 25 parry on my dual wielding bard at level 4, just with the things I bought from Petre. But I could find a crafter and buy a steel reinforced thick chitin shield for cheaper which would give me 4 shield AC, 5 shield AC against slashing which means around 90% of the damage on the server as slashing AC does work against slashing/piercing damage, the most common damage type by far. And you can put a varnish on your shield, and since they last 10 turns and the going price is around 250 gold for a single one, you can easily carry around enough varnishes to have +6 shield AC from using a tower shield at all times with not much of a gold investment as early as level 2, and keep in mind that a chitin tower shield only weighs 18 pounds and can get the same 6 shield AC with varnishes.

 And for feats, not anyone can afford the extra two feats. There are some very feat and skill expensive builds out there, the one I am using for my shield using character is one such build, and I would happily take the two feats, skill points and the extra point of AC I get over doing 5 more damage per hit.

Edit: Some math to go along with my point about how AC usually ends up being more important than damage output. I will use random numbers for both the AC and attacker ABs in the sake of demonstration.
 
 If you have 40 AC and you are fighting against enemies with 20 ab as their highest ab, then your chances of getting hit are only when they roll a natural 20 against you, which is 5%. Do keep in mind that unless you are a Dwarven Defender, you will likely be flanked by other enemies, which give them a +2 ab against you, meaning they will have a 15% chance to hit you, at a roll of 18, 19 and 20. Extra two points of AC means that while the enemy you are fighting still only has 5% chance to hit you, the flankers will only have 5% chance to hit you as well, and they will be required to roll a 20 for their crit confirmation roll as well for a critical, which is 0.25%. And do keep in mind that concealment can further amplify this, especially with some luck.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 12:28:58 PM by Night of Reod »

FlattedFifth

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, here's a fix
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2017, 01:00:58 PM »
No matter what you say the indisputable fact is that the game designers originally intended us to have to choose between either high offense or high defense, and the parry system here has broken that. Conditional factors such as happening to have a priest who happens to have memorized the ONE spell that would make a difference is irrelevant. I'm talking about the overall, average use here, and you keep harping on one very specific circumstance.

Night of Reod

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, here's a fix
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2017, 01:54:09 PM »
No matter what you say the indisputable fact is that the game designers originally intended us to have to choose between either high offense or high defense, and the parry system here has broken that. Conditional factors such as happening to have a priest who happens to have memorized the ONE spell that would make a difference is irrelevant. I'm talking about the overall, average use here, and you keep harping on one very specific circumstance.

 Varnishes are available to every character and there is a virtually infinite supply of them so long as you have the gold to buy them or skill to make them, and they are cheap as I pointed out. Not to mention, you can get +5 varnishes, which makes a shield able to acquire 8 AC for 10 turns, and they are not too terribly rare either. Clerics are completely irrelevant other then being able to give +4 shield ac if their Caster Level is 16 or above, which is more than the commonly available +3 magical varnishes, and yet less than the somewhat rare +5 varnishes. Also, do keep in mind that the game designers did not design this specific module, and this module has a much increased difficulty compared to the vanilla game, and plenty of added content to help players cope with the difficulty. Not to mention, parry builds are vulnerable to having their skill points and thus AC reduced, curse song being a good example of this, and if you somehow get disarmed then your AC also plummets unless you have the Improved Unarmed Fighting feat.

 As a somewhat irrelevant point, PotM is a party oriented module, and the balance assumes that you have a party of people who have access to some magic as average, and since clerics know all divine spells, they don't have to "happen to have" a specific spell prepared, you can ask them to prepare one before you tackle whatever you are fighting. And furthermore, this game is very full of "conditional" factors, for example, you want to have a spellcaster with a form of mind blank, clarity or some other form of fear immunity if you want to fight mummies or things that can inflict mental status conditions on many people and rapidly, Death Ward spell is a nigh necessity for plenty of areas, and most enemies require at least magic weapon spell or equivalent to damage them properly, most high end enemies requiring +2 and +3 weapon enhancement to be able to damage them, and the list goes on. "Conditional" things such as these are all things to consider while balancing the game.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 01:57:08 PM by Night of Reod »

FlattedFifth

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2017, 03:21:23 PM »
Once again you point out conditional factors as your argument against a general state of affairs. The rarity of shield using builds speaks for itself. If you're going to do less than 3/4 the damage because you have a shield (not to mention carrying the weight), you should have an ac that is higher, NOT just 4 higher for 10 rounds, but higher overall, all the time.

Do you honestly think +2 ac for shield users is going to break the server? Really? If so then I think you and I have reached the point where we're not accomplishing anything by continuing to speak to each other.

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2017, 03:53:42 PM »
 :?:Just so we're clear on the numbers and discussing ONLY Ac
Tower Shield +3 to +8 [+7 becoming the base at level 14]
Parry with 2 hander +5
Dual weild parry +7
Single weapon and [REDACTED] parry +8
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 04:01:53 PM by Amon-Si »

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2017, 04:08:27 PM »
Perhaps the rarity of shields has nothing to do with mechanics and instead has to do with what people prefer for their character aesthetics?  You've not really provided any data that suggests that shield use is low because of a mechanical drawback, FlattedFifth.  In fact I'm not even sure how you'd obtain such data without polling the community.



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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2017, 04:19:05 PM »
Perhaps the rarity of shields has nothing to do with mechanics and instead has to do with what people prefer for their character aesthetics?

:P

Good one!

I don't know enough to say whether this would break the server, but I do like the idea of the shield build having a development path the same as a parry build does. Because currently a shield is the same for a 2nd level as a 20th level??

If it's made for fighters only, then it's of no benefit to me, but that sounds like a good way to make fighters more eshpecialer. Right now I'd never play a pure fighter.

Only 6th level fighters and above could get the first feat.

Only 8th level fighters and above could get the second.

Doesn't seem that crazy OP to me.

ETA: Could always futz with the AB bonus requirement to make it more exclusive.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 04:22:31 PM by Iridni Ren »

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Night of Reod

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2017, 04:23:15 PM »
Once again you point out conditional factors as your argument against a general state of affairs. The rarity of shield using builds speaks for itself. If you're going to do less than 3/4 the damage because you have a shield (not to mention carrying the weight), you should have an ac that is higher, NOT just 4 higher for 10 rounds, but higher overall, all the time.

Do you honestly think +2 ac for shield users is going to break the server? Really? If so then I think you and I have reached the point where we're not accomplishing anything by continuing to speak to each other.

 It is 10 turns, not 10 rounds, and they do have higher AC consistently, all the time with an enchanted shield, and considering a two handed weapon user in full plate only gets +5 parry ac at level 19 without the use of magic, assuming 12 dex and gloves of swordplay, a shield user is very likely to have an enchanted shield by then, which also gives bonuses to saves, discipline and concentration checks. Furthermore, it is not about breaking the server, but about balance. I personally don't think giving shield users access to 2 more points of AC via feats is necessary to make them relevant, nor do I think it is healthy for the server balance, for the reasons I stated.

 As for the "rarity" of shield using builds, I certainly don't agree with this. I can easily list 10 characters that are level 15 or above and use shields from memory: Lupinus Linus, Zidonne LeFebvre, Bastian (Can't remember his last name or even if he had any, a RDD played by Mika) , Zachary Dalensbane, Cyrus Gallant, Sieglinde, Marcus (He is a paladin, can't remember all the details again, I believe he is played by aprogressivevist though I am not certain), Samson, Katraka, Vjaya, Schala Wintermoon . And these are just 10 names that I can conjure from memory and my own character, and all characters listed are either active currently, or were active during the last year. It is really not a rare thing at all, definitely not as rare as you make it seem to be.

 As for accomplishing things, I am trying to explain my point of view and why I think adding such feats is, in my opinion, not a good idea. I don't see why we can't accomplish anything if my ideas are contradictory to that of yours, I would even argue that contradictory points of view are helpful to accomplishing something. IF we have such contrasting viewpoints on the issues, it is likely that there is a compromise that can be found in the middle. So far, from what I understand, your points are that shield user deal less damage than two handed weapon users and dual wielder, and should have a higher AC all the time. And as I pointed out before, they do indeed have a higher AC all the time. As for the damage issue, I would love to see you break down the difference in damage and explain why you think that difference varrants a further increase in AC for shield users.

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2017, 06:31:51 PM »
As for the "rarity" of shield using builds, I certainly don't agree with this. I can easily list 10 characters that are level 15 or above and use shields from memory: Lupinus Linus, Zidonne LeFebvre, Bastian (Can't remember his last name or even if he had any, a RDD played by Mika) , Zachary Dalensbane, Cyrus Gallant, Sieglinde, Marcus (He is a paladin, can't remember all the details again, I believe he is played by aprogressivevist though I am not certain), Samson, Katraka, Vjaya, Schala Wintermoon . And these are just 10 names that I can conjure from memory and my own character, and all characters listed are either active currently, or were active during the last year. It is really not a rare thing at all, definitely not as rare as you make it seem to be.

Most of these are spell casting classes in some form or another, clerics especially gain a benefit from using shields because of magic vestment. Though I'll admit, pureclass clerics cannot always afford the skillpoints or the feats for a parry build. Whereas Samson is a low int build so again, might not have the skill points for parry investment. Given he's barbarian/fighter however. He could benefit from the extra feats for this Shield Mastery feat. I think filth is pointing out that the number of shield-users compared to two-handers is uneven in general. Which it kind of is, related or not.

I changed my mind about that last part.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 08:39:35 PM by dazza555 »

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2017, 06:55:55 PM »
My tiefling uses Large shield, most people i watch generally use Tower shields..

It would be nice if there were some other kind of shields out there.. I have my eyes set on the mirror shield because i think that SR is useful.


I'm not saying that shield feats should not be concidered but perhaps things like shield bash that could daze a target... but that's a custom on and probably would require to much work.

I think it would just be nice to see other kinds of large, small and tower shields out there that can give some nice benifts for wearing them.

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FlattedFifth

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2017, 08:02:48 PM »
So, to recap, everyone agrees that it's perfectly possible to have the precise same ac with or without a tower shield +1. Enchanting that shield brings it up to the same AC as someone using two weapons and greater two weapon defense, and that the ONLY way for a shield user to have a higher AC than those NOT using a shield is through TEMPORARY effects such as spells or varnishes.


This. Is. Broken.

Pav

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2017, 08:04:00 PM »
Shields are fine, parry is fine, /thread.

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2017, 08:22:54 PM »
So, to recap, everyone agrees that it's perfectly possible to have the precise same ac with or without a tower shield +1. Enchanting that shield brings it up to the same AC as someone using two weapons and greater two weapon defense, and that the ONLY way for a shield user to have a higher AC than those NOT using a shield is through TEMPORARY effects such as spells or varnishes.


This. Is. Broken.

I think a more accurate recap would be that the majority of people seem to agree that your proposed additional feats are interesting either as Fighter only or multiclass feats.  Only one individual (yourself) thinks that the system is broken.  I think that speaks more for the successful side of balance than anything else, admittedly.



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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2017, 09:36:52 PM »
When you factor in feat investment, its balanced.

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2017, 09:42:06 PM »
When you factor in feat investment, its balanced.

+1

Shield AC cost: 1 feat, usually free
Parry AC cost: 1sp/level, at least 2 feats and extra gear slots.