Author Topic: Tenser's Transformation  (Read 2234 times)

Indigocell

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Tenser's Transformation
« on: December 20, 2016, 09:08:21 PM »
Quote
You become a virtual fighting machine—stronger, tougher, faster, and more skilled in combat. Your mind-set changes so that you relish combat and you can’t cast spells, even from magic items.

You gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, a +4 natural armor bonus to AC, a +5 competence bonus on Fortitude saves, and proficiency with all simple and martial weapons. Your base attack bonus equals your character level (which may give you multiple attacks).

You lose your spellcasting ability, including your ability to use spell trigger or spell completion magic items, just as if the spells were no longer on your class list...

Source: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transformation.htm

Among other buffs, the version we use in game gives a simple attack bonus equal to the difference in Base Attack Bonus and your character level. However, this does not result in the extra attacks per round that it should.

I was wondering if it was possible to have the spell alter the actual Base Attack Bonus (which remains unchanged during the spell) in order to allow mages to benefit from the same number of attacks per round that a fighter of equal level would. This is how the spell is supposed to work and it seems a fair trade-off for the temporary loss of spell-casting ability.

MAB77

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Re: Tenser's Transformation
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2016, 11:29:18 PM »
Even by modifying the AB (which the spell already do), the number of attacks per round cannot be changed due to the game engine's limitations.

We modified the spell as follow a few years ago. We feel it is more balanced and better suited to the server that way.


Tenser's Transformation

Change: The spell gives +4 ability bonus to strength, dexterity and constitution rather than setting fixed stats. The weapon equipped is now a +1 Greatsword. The number of attacks won't change to equal level as fighter (due to NWN limitation), but the AB will.
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Nemesis 24

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Re: Tenser's Transformation
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2016, 01:36:16 AM »
With buffs precast, Tensers in its vanilla form made a spellcaster more powerful than nearly the strongest front line combatant, no matter how much they were also buffed.  It was dreadfully broken.  The current changes are much better!

Amon-Si

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Re: Tenser's Transformation
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2016, 02:23:14 AM »
If you want to build around tensers a pure wizzy can still get five attacks a round :D

Indigocell

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Re: Tenser's Transformation
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2016, 09:03:21 PM »
With buffs precast, Tensers in its vanilla form made a spellcaster more powerful than nearly the strongest front line combatant, no matter how much they were also buffed.  It was dreadfully broken.  The current changes are much better!

That's interesting, but I am not suggesting we reverse the changes to go back to the vanilla version. This has nothing to do with the vanilla version. I was talking about the PnP version. So I'm really not certain why you even bring that up. 

The version we currently use in game is actually weaker than it's PnP counterpart (considering the loss the extra attacks) which is why I was wondering if the Base Attack Bonus could be altered somehow (is that not how "Divine power" works?), but apparently it cannot be due to engine limitations.

It would be nice if that loss of damage potential could be compensated with a flat damage bonus of some sort, but I'm not going to get my hopes up. It was worth a shot.

« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 09:10:10 PM by Indigocell »

Nemesis 24

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Re: Tenser's Transformation
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2016, 09:08:35 PM »
Actually the PnP version is quite a bit stronger than the vanilla one.  So either way, good to not use either!  A mage is already incredibly diverse and powerful.  It shouldn't also be the best hand to hand fighting class as well.

Indigocell

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Re: Tenser's Transformation
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2016, 09:11:50 PM »
Actually the PnP version is quite a bit stronger than the vanilla one.  So either way, good to not use either!  A mage is already incredibly diverse and powerful.  It shouldn't also be the best hand to hand fighting class as well.

How exactly? The PnP version is exactly the same as the one we currently use, minus the base attack bonus. The vanilla version shapechanged you into a Doom Knight with a flaming sword and DR, as well as bonus feats such as cleave.

Mind explaining that?

Edit: That is all beside the point, again this has nothing to do with the vanilla version.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 09:20:03 PM by Indigocell »

Indigocell

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Re: Tenser's Transformation
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2016, 09:42:40 PM »
Even by modifying the AB (which the spell already do), the number of attacks per round cannot be changed due to the game engine's limitations.

We modified the spell as follow a few years ago. We feel it is more balanced and better suited to the server that way.

If you speak for the staff on that, fair enough. I thought it should be possible because, as far as I know, the spell "Divine Power" for Clerics altered their base attack bonus to a fighter of equal level. Does that result in additional attacks for them? If so, I saw no reason why a similar spell couldn't do the same for Mages because that is what the "Transformation" spell is supposed to do according to it's description.

I didn't think it was an unreasonable request. It's a spell that Mages have access to and I'm sorry if people feel that it encroaches on fighter territory. That's the spell, I didn't make it up.

Edited: typo
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 09:45:07 PM by Indigocell »

julienchab

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Re: Tenser's Transformation
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2016, 10:00:13 PM »
Actually the PnP version is quite a bit stronger than the vanilla one.  So either way, good to not use either!  A mage is already incredibly diverse and powerful.  It shouldn't also be the best hand to hand fighting class as well.

So let's use PnP spells when they are weaker than nwn, like timestop, but use the nwn spells when they are weaken than PnP like tenser? Doesn't make sense here Nemesis. Let's try and stay consistent here!
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 10:01:47 PM by Chabxxu »

Syl

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Re: Tenser's Transformation
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2016, 07:36:43 AM »
Divine power doesn't give additional attacks just increases you AB on the cleric to as if it was a fighter of that level. but ONYL the AB. no big deal.

and technically if you read the Transformation on the d20srd.. it says ( It may increase the number of attacks) not a 100% yes it does... so this means the DM could determine the spell's power if it did or not.

I personally always say TT as a odd spell, not something a mage would often use since they lose their ability to cast spells during the time of the spell. and when I read up the NWN version they seemed just about the same, the NWN version only seems stronger due to the fact the creators made it so your weapon changed. thus increasing damage output.

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MJ_Johansson

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Re: Tenser's Transformation
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2016, 12:59:47 PM »
Well the base nwn Divine power does give you attacks per round, but it was horribly broken, to the point that you'd see clerics with a riddiculous amount of attacks per round, far exceeding that of what a fighter would have.
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Syl

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Re: Tenser's Transformation
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2016, 01:40:12 PM »
Well the base nwn Divine power does give you attacks per round, but it was horribly broken, to the point that you'd see clerics with a riddiculous amount of attacks per round, far exceeding that of what a fighter would have.

Huh.... guess I should of made a cleric on the campaign lol

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Bad_Bud

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Re: Tenser's Transformation
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2016, 09:33:25 PM »
Extra attacks follow their own progression, making them better than base attacks.

A fighter at level 20 gets base attacks like: +20/+15/+10/+5

With an extra attack from Haste, it looks like: +20/+15/+10/+5/+20

A cleric at level 20: +15/+10/+5

A cleric at level 20 with Divine Power and Haste: +20/+15/+10/+20/+15

When adding extra attacks to non-fighter classes, those attacks are always going to be more effective than the base attack a fighter gets. While a fighter makes a fourth attack at -15, a cleric would make it at -0. Using scrolls on rogues, this could be further abused by using Divine Power and Tenser's Transformation at the same time. Considering the potential for abuse, and the fact that Divine Power is supposed to give a cleric attacks equivalent to a fighter of equal level, not better than a fighter of equal level, the bonus attacks were removed. The same logic follows for Tenser's Transformation.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 09:37:12 PM by Bad_Bud »