Author Topic: Divine Champion Question  (Read 13054 times)

Truth_USMC

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Divine Champion Question
« on: November 12, 2016, 08:19:25 PM »
I was wondering, does one need a deity to become a divine champion?  For instance, could there be a PC that's a divine champion of the Divinity of Mankind lets say?  There's no actual deity, its a philosophy.  So in other words, can one be a divine champion dedicated to some kind of spiritual philosophy?
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NecropolisV

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2016, 09:35:23 PM »
Patron deity: A divine champion must have a patron diety, and it must be the one he serves as divine champion.

One of the listed requirements for Divine Champion.. I'm not entirely sure if you can divine champion into the divinity of mankind.. As, it's not really a deity- however, given that this is ravenloft, and they can grant powers to whom they please (Like Zakhata, or however that's spelt for the domain lord) *shrugs* I could see it happening
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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2016, 01:14:24 AM »
I would say that any canon D&D religion can serve for the PrC.  In some cases, if there is not an actual deity, which is only really going to arise with some native Ravenloft setting religions such as the Divinity of Mankind or the Ancestral Choir (AKA they do not actually exist and reside in the D&D multiverse somewhere) , then it would be a DM decision, but I would personally say yes, and I would presume so would DM Blue and co.

It never came up because the prestige class was originally designed for Forgotten Realms (FRCS 3E and PGtF) and patron deities work that way there, but many other FR originated source material has been seamlessly implemented in PotM.


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Truth_USMC

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2016, 11:15:01 AM »
All good points, I figured it would come down to DM decision.  My add on to that theory was, you probably wouldn't have any trouble at all getting divine champions from false religions like the Overseer, and the Morninglord.  It's a weird sort of paradox
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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2016, 11:27:08 AM »
My Wight Matthias Piltz was a Divine Champion of the Eternal Order.


Here Blue says that they worship a variety of 'death gods' that aren't given a name so I'm not sure if that could be used a proper justification to serve one of them or if the Dark Powers can grant those abilities to those who serve a cult or faith even if false. I think there's more leeway with Ravenloft faiths than those from other settings.

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dark_majico

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2016, 12:31:10 PM »
Well it's my understanding that it's against the rules to take a class and roleplay that you are a completely different and unsupported class, or that you have features that are not supported. So if your a divine champion, you are most definitely a divine champion, and you have to follow the requirements set out by that class, one of which has been pointed out...

Patron deity: A divine champion must have a patron deity, and it must be the one he serves as divine champion.


...so I wouldn't say you could worship for example the divinity of mankind because mankind isn't a divine being.

...That is if you want to take the class, you could be a fighter or something who is just insane and believes he is a devine champion of this none existent deity, and of course get all the benefits...none at all.

MAB77

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2016, 11:28:14 PM »
The prestige class description is crystal clear, Divine Champions are holy servants of a deity or group of deities. As such to have a patron deity is the most important requirement to obtain the class.

Yes
, this means you can even be a divine champion of false deities empowered by the Dark Powers (such as Zhakata), or nameless ones such as the deities of the Eternal Order. No, you can't be a divine champion of the Divinity of Mankind philosophy. They hold an ideal from which they draw great strength, but ultimately serve no one else but themselves in their path to "enlightenment".

And while some may (rightfully) argue that the Dark Powers can make anything possible, remember that it is not how they work. The Dark Powers are a tool to be used solely by the DMs. As a player you cannot use them to justify anything that would not normally be allowed  by the rules.


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Truth_USMC

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2017, 11:58:05 PM »
Mechanically, does an evil aligned divine champion get smite good?  Or do they keep smite evil as a feat?
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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2017, 08:11:29 AM »
In what I've read for PnP, Evil aligned DCs get smite good. However, I do not know if this can come through on NWN, so you would need to check with a DM, since there is smite evil for paladins, but I'm not sure if there is smite good for blackguards for this game.
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rapsam2003

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2017, 12:16:54 PM »
In what I've read for PnP, Evil aligned DCs get smite good. However, I do not know if this can come through on NWN, so you would need to check with a DM, since there is smite evil for paladins, but I'm not sure if there is smite good for blackguards for this game.
According to the POTM Wikia, Blackguard does get Smite Good at level 2. And Divine Champion gets Smite Evil at level 3 (which, well...it'd be nice if evil DCs got Smite Good).
http://nwnravenloft.wikia.com/wiki/Blackguard
http://nwnravenloft.wikia.com/wiki/Divine_Champion

MAB77

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2017, 02:18:02 PM »
Why should it be automatically "smite good" for an evil divine champion? There are many forms of evil, and some Faiths, although evil themselves are in a crusade against some other kind of evil. A lawful evil follower of the Lawgiver is by far more likely to have issues with a chaotic evil foe than a lawful good one.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2017, 02:20:16 PM by MAB77 »
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rapsam2003

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2017, 06:10:21 PM »
Why should it be automatically "smite good" for an evil divine champion? There are many forms of evil, and some Faiths, although evil themselves are in a crusade against some other kind of evil. A lawful evil follower of the Lawgiver is by far more likely to have issues with a chaotic evil foe than a lawful good one.
Then call it "Smite Infidel" or "Smite Heretic" or something. For example: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Smite_infidel

Divine Champion is a broad stroke class, not one specific to a certain deity (unlike "Divine Champion of Torm").
« Last Edit: January 04, 2017, 06:11:57 PM by rapsam2003 »

Truth_USMC

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2017, 09:51:26 PM »
Both arguments make sense, for the context I was asking it's an evil aligned character who almost 99% of the time battles evil aligned creatures, so I can see what you're saying
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dark_majico

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2017, 08:00:42 AM »
Why should it be automatically "smite good" for an evil divine champion? There are many forms of evil, and some Faiths, although evil themselves are in a crusade against some other kind of evil. A lawful evil follower of the Lawgiver is by far more likely to have issues with a chaotic evil foe than a lawful good one.
Then call it "Smite Infidel" or "Smite Heretic" or something. For example: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Smite_infidel

Divine Champion is a broad stroke class, not one specific to a certain deity (unlike "Divine Champion of Torm").

Yes but an infidel or a Heretic is someone who worships another god, or does not worship them in the same way. It was a sloppy use of the word infidel by Obsidian Entertainment, Smiting an Infidel mechanically wouldn't look at a character or creatures alignment, it would look at what God or Pantheon it worshiped, alignment wouldn't come into it.

There isn't any need to change it's name though, an evil aligned character can have use of smite Evil.

MAB77

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2017, 08:03:04 AM »
Then call it "Smite Infidel" or "Smite Heretic" or something. For example: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Smite_infidel

Divine Champion is a broad stroke class, not one specific to a certain deity (unlike "Divine Champion of Torm").

There is no need for that. "Smite Evil" is just a name for a game mechanic, representative of what it does. In game you are absolutely within you're rights to call it as you prefer. Just like I refer IG to my dwarf as a Shieldbearer and never as a "Fighter" itself.
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rapsam2003

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2017, 01:23:30 PM »
There isn't any need to change it's name though, an evil aligned character can have use of smite Evil.
Currently, ALL Divine Champions, regardless of alignment, have "Smite Evil". I don't think that makes sense. Naming aside, if you clicked the link for "Smite Infidel", the actual mechanics of the ability are that it smites a target whose alignment differ from the Divine Champion's alignment.

According to http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Smite_evil :
Quote
When used against a creature that is not evil (hostile creatures are not necessarily evil), smite evil is wasted. This is reported to the player as "failed" (as opposed to "hit" or "miss").
Was that aspect of it changed on POTM? If not, that's actually the whole issue, in my mind.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 01:33:38 PM by rapsam2003 »

MAB77

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2017, 01:56:21 PM »
It was not changed and we have no plans to do so either at this point.

It does not mean we'll never do it, nor that we disagree with the idea of it. Just that we elected, so far, to work on other aspects of the game. Among the things to consider is the impact this could have in game, and the difficulty of enacting changes of that type within the game engine.

If all changes were easy to do, our wishlist would not be so voluminous.
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rapsam2003

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2017, 02:09:06 PM »
That's a more than fair answer. Thanks, MAB!  :D

C.H.A.R.L.I.E

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2017, 03:14:04 PM »
No, you can't be a divine champion of the Divinity of Mankind philosophy. They hold an ideal from which they draw great strength, but ultimately serve no one else but themselves in their path to "enlightenment".

Does this mean that oriental (kata-tur) type character cannot become divine champions? From wizards.com (3.5e):
Spoiler: show
 "Shugenja are the priests of Kara-Tur .... Shugenja are known as dang-kai and are adherents of an elaborate religious philosophy known as The Way. As part of their belief system, they reject notions of good, evil, chaos, and law and instead focus on manipulating natural, universal energies toward a desired end."


The named deity system is very eurocentric, i think there should be room to roleplay other religious belief systems without that locking you out of certain classes. Otherwise we will only end up forced to pick some deity just to get that class  :(

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2017, 03:22:53 PM »
I asked this in chat and recieved different answers. A divine champion has to weapon focus on her god's weapon. What weapon is that for Pelor?

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2017, 03:31:42 PM »
According to the 3.5 edition Player's handbook, Pelor's favored weapon is the mace.

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2017, 04:29:17 PM »
No, you can't be a divine champion of the Divinity of Mankind philosophy. They hold an ideal from which they draw great strength, but ultimately serve no one else but themselves in their path to "enlightenment".

Does this mean that oriental (kata-tur) type character cannot become divine champions? From wizards.com (3.5e):
Spoiler: show
 "Shugenja are the priests of Kara-Tur .... Shugenja are known as dang-kai and are adherents of an elaborate religious philosophy known as The Way. As part of their belief system, they reject notions of good, evil, chaos, and law and instead focus on manipulating natural, universal energies toward a desired end."


The named deity system is very eurocentric, i think there should be room to roleplay other religious belief systems without that locking you out of certain classes. Otherwise we will only end up forced to pick some deity just to get that class  :(


You can always play a paladin. I believe they don't always need a deity. But a Divine Champion is a champion of a deity.
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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2017, 02:54:41 PM »
And while some may (rightfully) argue that the Dark Powers can make anything possible, remember that it is not how they work. The Dark Powers are a tool to be used solely by the DMs. As a player you cannot use them to justify anything that would not normally be allowed  by the rules.

Please tell me if I've any of this wrong.

Clerics in this setting don't get their spells or other benefits from their deities. It's actually the DP substituting for the deity. This is true even for native clerics. (Is it???)

All characters start out as 2nd level, so no one starts as DC.

But!!

"Divine Champions are mighty warriors who dedicate themselves to their deity's cause."

Does this mean all DC are mistaken? No matter how much they think they're dedicated to their deities, they're only really serving the cause of the DP??

Why this seems more important to clear up for a DC then for a cleric is the RP. If my character suddenly feels a special connection to Pelor she never had before, it's weird because before she came to the Mists she was connected to Pelor and now it's just a sham.

It could work that way, I guess, but it makes the class kind of no fun to play. On the one hand the allure of it is trying to be this perfect servant extension of a godlike being. But you're really being a great big mark in a great big con. What you think is the most important accomplishment in your life is monumental self deception.

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2017, 03:13:06 PM »
It is neither confirmed nor denied that the spells come from any particular source.

Also, if you follow the teachings and dogma of your specific deity, you are furthering their cause, even if he or she is not granting you the powers to do so.

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2017, 03:22:53 PM »
The Demiplane of Dread is insulated from outside forces. Outlander clerics no longer feel close to their gods, but their spells continue to function, care of the Dark Powers.
Whether the native gods are real is up for interpretation, barring a couple of definately fake ones (though they still have functioning clerics, go figure).
Native clerics have never felt as close to their gods as Outlander ones do before coming to the Mists.

Clerics and Divine Champions do not unknowingly serve the interests of the Dark Powers, at least any moreso than we all do. Isolation from the gods is a necessary conceit of the gothic horror setting; it is about men and the choices men make, not gods. The Dark Powers stepping in and continuing to provide spells is, therefore, another necessary conceit, to make clerics actually playable.

Furthermore. When a cleric's Alignment or actions deviate from the Alignment of their Deity, usually they'd be cut off. Not so in Ravenloft. A cleric, paladin or divine champion in the Demiplane of Dread continues to receive spells, and by extension, the 'approval' from their deity, 'validating' their skewed or perverted dogma.