Author Topic: Were-creature suggestions.  (Read 3078 times)

zodiacspear

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Were-creature suggestions.
« on: November 11, 2016, 09:17:31 PM »
As I'm currently playing a were-leopard, I've come to the realization that they are slightly underpowered.  In terms of fighting and offense, they've got it good.  However, I've noticed that their AC is rather lacking.  Sano, at level twelve with a +8 to dex modifier, only has an AC of 23.  Now, if I had taken the tumble skill, I might have done a little better off, however, that would still only be about three AC at best. And that is if I only took one barbarian class (per the were-creature requirements)  Still, the 15 DR is impressive when there are little +1 weapons around (which outside of a NCE) there are no shortage of these weapons. The Regeneration is fantastic and one of its best saving graces, however, with such low AC, all the Regen won't save you in group fights.

That is where I'm going to suggest something to help the underpowered (compared to the undead) werecreatures out.  Is there a way to apply the parry skill to creature weapons? This might help werecreature AMPCs have a bit more life saving grace. If anything, it could be applied with improved unarmed strike, similar to how improve parry is for large weapons.  With an AC of 23, even a level six with a silver weapon could be troublesome.  Imagine a group of them?

Another suggestion might be improvement to natural skills based upon level growth.  Such as improved natural AC with level, up the DR from +1 to +2 after a certain level?

Thoughts?
Zodiacspear (aka Timgood)
Current active character(s): Garbhan Ross (Forfarian Warrior), Erutáron Xillen (Sithican Rebel) Vulg Graynoor (Lost Aasimar)

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Re: Were-creature suggestions.
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2016, 11:54:47 PM »
I will have to play the devil's advocate here. Our MPC templates reflects the templates of the Ravenloft setting as faithfully as the game engine allows. Yes, this means that some creature templates will be significantly weaker than others. But that in itself is not a sufficient reason to implement your suggestion.

You've got to understand that our MPCs are there to provide atmosphere and foster roleplay, not necessarily to be unstoppable killing monsters. And to your credit, this is something you visibly achieve quite efficiently from the little I saw of Sano in game and by the comments I hear from others about you.

You will have to cope with your lower armor class and make up for it with strategic maneuvers, you are still gifted with many more talents and attribute bonuses, setting you far above normal humans after all.
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Re: Were-creature suggestions.
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2016, 11:56:01 PM »
Improved Unarmed Strike already allows parry to apply to creature weapons in the case of polymorph forms, though I suppose it's possible it doesn't to were creatures.

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Re: Were-creature suggestions.
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2016, 06:15:11 PM »
To be the devil's advocate to your devil's advocate, DMs often buff special monsters significantly to meet the challenge of a group. People are very good at straight up flattening lycanthropes. As well, the purpose of player characters as a whole are to be unique and different from NPCs. This is what we are always told any time anyone asks why there are un-Barovian Barovians. Players don't have to be turnip farmers or housewives, they're the outlier people who do something different. IMO AMPCs should be the same, and represent monsters that are unique from the run-of-the-mill dungeon run.

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Re: Were-creature suggestions.
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2016, 08:13:15 PM »
I think there are a looot of changes that should happen to some of the MPC options, but I also think it's important to say that it's not entirely broken. The system works, but it could definitely be improved.

I don't personally buy the "As close to PnP as possible" reasoning, given that AMPC's are involved often with character adversaries that can be much more powerful, well equipped, and in greater numbers than the PnP versions of Ravenloft ever imagined PC's could be getting.

I absolutely think that MPC templates and roleplay should both be attempting to reinforce the server's atmosphere. So there are some things which should definitely remain: such as damage reduction to magical and silver weapons. Regeneration, increased strength and agility. But it's not impossible to increase certain values while maintaining the individual flavor and atmospheric accuracy of each template. I for one, think that if a template is strictly accurate to PnP but doesn't pose a mechanical threat to much of our playerbase, that it's not really performing its job of being an atmospheric threat in the first place.

There's the actual-factual mechanics of PnP, and the spirit of PnP. While currently Lycanthropes may fit to the actual mechanics, these mechanics are often times weaker than their human form, and thus don't really fit the spirit of the PnP as much as they could with the right enhancements.

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Re: Were-creature suggestions.
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2016, 08:44:44 PM »
Some ideas that I had:

Werewolf:
1.) Given Barbarian Rage feats while in form.
- The reasoning behind this is that it increases their AB, damage, and health in a way that scales in increments with their character level (+Con at a lower level doesn't give much more health, while at a higher level it very much does!). The Werewolf thematically is a brutal and cunning hunter. More offensive than defensive. Extra health gives it a better defensive 'cushion' while it still doesn't have too much AC. A berserker.

Wererat:
1.) Increase hybrid and normal rat form stealth bonuses by a large amount.
- One of the coolest vampire bonuses is their maaassive stealth bonuses in mist form (And HiPS). I think that an equivalent tool could be provided for wererats, with the exception of HiPS. So it would have large stealth bonuses, but the added challenge of having to corner sneak instead of simply hide in plain sight. Wererats are thematically stealthy, maybe they should be moreso!
- If you're worried about the hybrid form being too strong with capped stealth bonuses, maybe just have the normal rat form have the hyper-increased stealth. And the hybrid being still good, but not as good.



The basic problem of most lycanthropes is that their gear doesn't merge, and that a normal human will often times be stronger in every meaningful way (AB, damage, skills, AC, saves). Even if the werewolf has higher total strength, it's AB and damage will still usually be outclassed by an equipped and moderately buffed human. It's saving grace is that it has permanent haste, in most cases. And regeneration. But that usually isn't enough to offset the differences.

Undead have the luxury, usually, of being able to equip items on top of incredible critical hit immunities and stat bonuses. Their undead immunities make them pretty much always stronger and more survivable than PC's, even if their stats are lower. But they always have the potential to be just as good or way better than regular PC's. Lycans don't get this luxury!

So another look could probably be given to their actual skill increases. Discipline, stealth, detection-- definitely.




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Re: Were-creature suggestions.
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2016, 09:37:18 PM »
I absolutely believe werecreatures should definitely be buffed. As it stands with them being unable to get benefits from gear they are relatively weak and often weaker than players of the same level. Monster characters can still do excellent atmospheric things, but the actual fighting isn't too satisfying as I know my PCs can easily thrash werecreatures with some gear and magic. Some bonuses to their templates would go a long way to making them more fearsome to face against.
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Re: Were-creature suggestions.
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2016, 10:08:12 PM »
The main issue I have found with the werewolf is that it has very, very light damage.  Coupled with a very low AC, it doesn't have a lot of survivability.  You can make it work, absolutely!  But you're going to have trouble with anyone with about half as many levels as you, generally.  Large hit point totals will win the day, but its strictly one on one.

All the undead have crit immunity, casting ability in their natural form, many have regeneration and other nifty tricks, and of course, gear.  This gear does at least allow a potential to cut through damage reduction.

I play a werewolf now with barbarian levels - I 'had' to take them, it was the only way I could deal some damage, but I've encountered lower level characters I couldn't hurt at all.

The main issue is that in werewolf form, no damage buffs can be applied.  Even magic fang or greater magic fang will not work, because werecreatures are -shapeshifters- and not animals, and thus the bonuses cannot be applied.  Even cold weapon or anything along those lines, because the shapeshift hides all gear, such as gloves.  If you do have all manner of buffs cast upon yourself while wearing gauntlets, these bonuses are lost when you change into your werewolf shape.  That's one of the big limitations, really.

If I was going to suggest something, it would be either a damage increase on the combat werecreatures, when in werewolf form - in particular a large boost to their AB, DR piercing (a natural AB or EB) to make them a terrifying combat situation.  However - I'd keep the saves low, the AC low, leave them vulnerable but up the offense.  They could take the hits, but be able to dish out terrifying damage to offset it.

EDIT- I must admit, with Markov, I've found that I am flat unable to terrorise players, within five levels.  Most of my actions as an NPC have been against NPC's.  Players are just too powerful to attack for the most part, unless I've been part of a three or four player monster group.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 10:12:53 PM by Nemesis 24 »

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Re: Were-creature suggestions.
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2016, 10:54:17 PM »
Ohyeah, and I forgot--

I think that werecreatures could use at least small increase to their normal damage, but have a larger critical hit multiplier. Increasing their AB and their main damage is a lot, but increasing their AB and then their crit multiplier helps in its own way, but doesn't make it too consistently good.

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Re: Were-creature suggestions.
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2016, 11:01:15 PM »
It would be nice if someone helped MPC/AMPCs choose builds and help layout a plan for them. Alot of the times when iv encountered MPC/AMPC who i thought were really scary and dangerous quickly became not after taking a hit or two, and it became really obvious they were quite squishy. Alot of them feel like they die really fast as well, with POTM being party oriented for facing what the server holds. AMPCs/MPCs feel very singular, they feel like they lack the ability to go toe to toe with one of the foundations the server is built on.

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Re: Were-creature suggestions.
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2016, 06:32:20 AM »
Probably been brought up before but isn't there a way to get shapeshifters to be able to use part of their gear in shifted form?



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zodiacspear

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Re: Were-creature suggestions.
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2016, 02:29:45 PM »
Probably been brought up before but isn't there a way to get shapeshifters to be able to use part of their gear in shifted form?

While I cannot speak for belt, ring, helmet, or shield slots.  I can say that armor, weapons, necklace, cloak, and boot slots do not transfer to the were creature form. If there was a way for them to use gear in alternate form, that would be fantastic, but not sure if it is possible.  As the alternate form is considered shapeshifted and cannot use items. Potions, maybe. (Haven't tested.)  There might be a hack out there that makes it possible, but I don't personally know of it.

I will have to play the devil's advocate here. Our MPC templates reflects the templates of the Ravenloft setting as faithfully as the game engine allows. Yes, this means that some creature templates will be significantly weaker than others. But that in itself is not a sufficient reason to implement your suggestion.

You've got to understand that our MPCs are there to provide atmosphere and foster roleplay, not necessarily to be unstoppable killing monsters. And to your credit, this is something you visibly achieve quite efficiently from the little I saw of Sano in game and by the comments I hear from others about you.

You will have to cope with your lower armor class and make up for it with strategic maneuvers, you are still gifted with many more talents and attribute bonuses, setting you far above normal humans after all.

Thank you for the praise! I appreciate it. :)

The main issue I have found with the werewolf is that it has very, very light damage.  Coupled with a very low AC, it doesn't have a lot of survivability.  You can make it work, absolutely!  But you're going to have trouble with anyone with about half as many levels as you, generally.  Large hit point totals will win the day, but its strictly one on one.

All the undead have crit immunity, casting ability in their natural form, many have regeneration and other nifty tricks, and of course, gear.  This gear does at least allow a potential to cut through damage reduction.

I play a werewolf now with barbarian levels - I 'had' to take them, it was the only way I could deal some damage, but I've encountered lower level characters I couldn't hurt at all.

The main issue is that in werewolf form, no damage buffs can be applied.  Even magic fang or greater magic fang will not work, because werecreatures are -shapeshifters- and not animals, and thus the bonuses cannot be applied.  Even cold weapon or anything along those lines, because the shapeshift hides all gear, such as gloves.  If you do have all manner of buffs cast upon yourself while wearing gauntlets, these bonuses are lost when you change into your werewolf shape.  That's one of the big limitations, really.

If I was going to suggest something, it would be either a damage increase on the combat werecreatures, when in werewolf form - in particular a large boost to their AB, DR piercing (a natural AB or EB) to make them a terrifying combat situation.  However - I'd keep the saves low, the AC low, leave them vulnerable but up the offense.  They could take the hits, but be able to dish out terrifying damage to offset it.

EDIT- I must admit, with Markov, I've found that I am flat unable to terrorise players, within five levels.  Most of my actions as an NPC have been against NPC's.  Players are just too powerful to attack for the most part, unless I've been part of a three or four player monster group.

Pretty much this.  As the wereleopard, when it comes to actual PvP where I do go around terrifying people, it is usually done on a one on one basis.  Main reason being is that I know attacking a group with my current stats and abilities against a group that all but nullifies them, is PC suicide. As the wereleopard, and I can see the other were creatures having the same issue, I have to be very selective on who and what I go after.

Now, back when I played Sorin (my vampire) I had very few such hesitations. While I am sure it is intended for vampires to be vastly overpowered, compared to were creatures, I am sure Sorin could have easily wiped out three or four werecreatures on his own.  Sorin was able to take on a group of 8+ and nearly won! The same cannot be said of Sano.  I'm not saying that Sano should be able to do the same, not at all, just he should be able to take on a group of three and not risk death with near certainty.
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Re: Were-creature suggestions.
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2016, 11:06:34 PM »
Ohyeah, and I forgot--

I think that werecreatures could use at least small increase to their normal damage, but have a larger critical hit multiplier. Increasing their AB and their main damage is a lot, but increasing their AB and then their crit multiplier helps in its own way, but doesn't make it too consistently good.

What about giving them Weapon Spec: Unarmed Strike? It's only two damage but its a start and fairly easily implemented.

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Re: Were-creature suggestions.
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2016, 01:06:34 AM »
They already have it.  But its not much.  Markov in rage does 1d4+7 damage, x2 on a 20.

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Re: Were-creature suggestions.
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2016, 01:20:26 AM »
On hit wounding would be good maybe. Save can be adjusted for the intended lvl range of the creature. 14,16,18 fort etc.

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Re: Were-creature suggestions.
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2016, 03:37:12 PM »
my first AMPC was a werebear and I will admit... it was a bit rough, grant it I had some crazy damage. They state when you fill out the application Use the templates to the fullest. exploit it. if you know in hybrid form you're going to get a +8 into strength. and you want to do good damage and not care on getting hit Max that strength and pray you hit them more often and just buff your Con like no tomorrow. that's about what I did.

level 8 or barbarian werebear with Silly Str and Con  had a low 30 str raged and like 200+ HP all while in hybrid form

That said what I noticed after playing both my werebear and my Wight Alex. Each Monster plays out differently. Were-creatures will have a better survival chance in packs.  Depending on how strong it is determins the size of the pack. It even states that were-lepord and panthers and tigers aren't frontal fighters. they pick up and maim their targets in hit and run tactics.

I would say try RP a fight out. I remember RPing a fight on my wight using a drow that was being controlled by a vampire as a human shield in one hand and my sword in the other to keep a paladin at bay

things have changed since I first started as it has with those before me, I remember where getting s steel silver gilded weapon was rare and expensive and FANTASTIC +1 weapons were extremely rare making dealing with were creatures difficult. I remember getting into a 5-6 hour fight IG with two werewolf players whom i'll never know who they were but it turned into a stalemate probably only lived due to the sun beginning to rise and they ran off; I went through a hand-full of potions and other healing items.


But yes I will still agree from my experience of were creatures they need a bit more of love specially since no matter how things go characters will always seek help from stronger people.

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Re: Were-creature suggestions.
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2016, 12:03:10 AM »
They already have it.  But its not much.  Markov in rage does 1d4+7 damage, x2 on a 20.

Werewolves in 5th edition do more damage. I've seen 1d6 or 1d8 damage as a PC with lycanthropy and 2d4 for monster NPCs, plus Str modifiers. Makes sense for me, since we have steel weapons and other easy to get extra damage weapons.
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zodiacspear

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Re: Were-creature suggestions.
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2016, 02:40:26 AM »
I also want to add that, with wereleopards, to include the feat Low-Light vision.  As I've come to understand, it is a feat they are supposed to inherit, but current builds does not support it.  Sano is blind going in caves.
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Re: Were-creature suggestions.
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2016, 03:03:32 AM »
I also want to add that, with wereleopards, to include the feat Low-Light vision.  As I've come to understand, it is a feat they are supposed to inherit, but current builds does not support it.  Sano is blind going in caves.

Yes, I'm not sure if low-light applies for any werecreatures.
I'm not sure if it's specifically for the ones with human as the base race, though.
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Re: Were-creature suggestions.
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2016, 08:55:31 AM »
I also want to add that, with wereleopards, to include the feat Low-Light vision.  As I've come to understand, it is a feat they are supposed to inherit, but current builds does not support it.  Sano is blind going in caves.

Yes, I'm not sure if low-light applies for any werecreatures.
I'm not sure if it's specifically for the ones with human as the base race, though.

That could be a bug because it would be a feat based skill just like my Shadow Dancer and having Dark Vision. It comes with the race or class. A person afflicted by Lycanthropy that can't naturally see well at night would notice they now can.

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zodiacspear

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Re: Were-creature suggestions.
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2017, 11:44:26 AM »
For a wereleopard, I've noticed the following feats are missing from their template:

Improved Critical: Creature Weapon (They have improved critical: unarmed strike)
Low-Light Vision. (According to the template, they are supposed to inherit this regardless of base race)

A feat suggested they have:
Improved Unarmed Attack (May or maynot work with creature weapons. Would allow the shapeshifted form to access the AC of the parry skill)
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zodiacspear

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Re: Were-creature suggestions.
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2017, 01:21:19 PM »
I'm here with another suggestion to improving the werecreature templates.

Before I go on, I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to make suggestions to where they AMPCs (specifically lycans) are powerhouses to overwhelm normal PCs. After playing one off and on for a few months now, and talking with other people, I've come to the realization that people don't want to play lycans because they are so underpowered. Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed playing Sano, but for the most part he doesn't really terrify anyone. Most of his best rp has been either during the rare times he is human, or when the cat is calm to allow limited communication with players who actually rp. Even if we play the characters as being scared of the creature, there are many who know that lycans are not really a threat mechanically. That knowledge can, and does, affect how a person plays around them. Rather than get away to safety, they would brave a fight because most players are more than equipped to deal with a lycan. I can tell you in all honesty that if I were to pit Erutáron (my dual-longsword fighter elf) against Sano, Erut would mop the floor with him unbuffed—and that is a guy dual wielding longswords.

It is incredibly hard to make for horrific atmosphere with a character that doesn't actually terrify anyone but people many levels below the character who is supposed to spread fear and dread across the server.

With that said, here is my suggestion: Increasing the base damage of the creature weapons. A wereleopard has two claw attacks of 1d3 damage and one 1d6 bite attack, on top of their strength and feat bonuses. I just want to point out that a 1d3 claw damage is the exact same as a rat's bite attack. A common rat's bite. Realistically, this is just a break in suspension of belief. A wereleopard's claws should be doing far more damage (not accounting for strength) than that. I'd propose a change to 1d6 (similar to a scimitar) since it is a slashing attack. The bite I'd also up to 1d8 at the least.

Again, these suggestions are not to make AMPCs unstoppable killing machines, but to make them more of a mechical threat to where people would consider them actual dangers to fight and help spread the atmosphere were's supposed to be causing.

As for the template argument, that is fantastic for NPC lycans. But for AMPC lycans, those who are supposed to be better and above the NPCs, they do need to be actually better than them. I know the Abhorrent Dire Wolves have much better damage that the template, and lets not mention the Deep Alpha Forest Wolves and what -they- are capable of.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 01:23:12 PM by zodiacspear »
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Re: Were-creature suggestions.
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2017, 01:21:19 AM »
I have another suggestion! (Odd thing from me, right?)

Allow the were-creature AMPC/MPC to 'henchman' a NPC of the faction they are in. In the case of the wereleopard, allow them to henchman a member of the Predator faction. This can be rped as the AMPC asserting dominance over another of their faction and the thing follows them like a beta to an alpha and act more like a pack like lycans should. I am sure the werewolves ampcs will find no shortage of available members for them to use.
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Re: Were-creature suggestions.
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2017, 02:09:11 AM »
Maybe you should check the latest changelog....



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Re: Were-creature suggestions.
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2017, 04:44:32 AM »
Ask and ye shall receive!

Quote
Changelog - 17th of January 2017 Version BETA 2.02n title "Charge!"

Area, Item and NPC changes:

- Fixed a few items in the loot tables and added some new.

- Fixed a large amount of typos and misspellings.

- Fixed a number of minor errors introduced in the last update.

Scripting and System changes:

- Improved companion/henchmen AI and gave them the ability to move ahead (using the "Attack" command.)

- Made (A)MPCs able to command certain creatures and NPCs with the Faction Tool ability.

- Did improvements to the DM Store Object tool.

- Did improvements to the Faction Tool menu.

- Disabled the Dread Flesh Golem berserk system.