Timestop nerf

[FinalHeaven]

I think it's certainly valid that we're not obligated to use things that our community as a whole deems change-worthy when the tools to alter things more to our liking are available.

But I think it's just as valid to mention we're not playing PnP.  We're playing Neverwinter Nights.

Bioware designed this game for solo play, but also gave people a toolset to change whatever they want. There's no valid reason to stick to what Bioware made for single-player purposes in a multiplayer environment.

I agree.  I simply don't agree with the blanket concept of balancing everything strictly for/by PnP standards or the implication that the way Bioware did it is inherently wrong because it doesn't adhere to PnP standards.

[Crimson Shuriken]

This is the single greatest change that ever was. My opinion and I'm sticking to it.

For the record I have completed Perfidus (and the Demonologists by Lake Zarovich before that) some 100+X without even one use of Time Stop. I cannot say the same for Sithicus, but I've been far less active since Sithicus even existed. There is most definitely a way to complete anything with any combination. Sometimes, what is seen as a normal difficulty is actually far too easy, and after having experienced the easy straight forward method for a time then the normal balance feels like hardmode. Just keep an open mind and get creative.

[Iluvatar / Madness]

Personally, I think that before saying this change isn't good, we should wait and see how it goes, like every change it might not be easy at the beginning, but eventually we'll get used to it and find other ways than Time Stop to do certain things.

Yes a few thing will have to be tweaked to make thing fair, but let's give it time. I'm not for this change, but neither am I against it, let's see how it turns out before.

[APorg]

In Sithicus, Time Stop was pretty useful for emergency blasting situations, but as you say, there's usually a better tactic. Anyway the balance in Sithicus is somewhat off... it's a bad place to look to start balancing spells.

[Aduial]

Having a tool like this in the hands of any caster of sufficient level is irresponsible and apparently too tempting to not abuse. I'm sorry to see some of the friendlier dungeon uses go, but the spell is discourteous in PvP and has been abused for the better part of a decade.

+1

I totally aggre with you and i like the fact that the staff wants our partecipation in this change infact they said that they will see how this change will influence the gameplay, and they need some feedback from us, so let's try to work on this request and help the staff to balance this spell.

[Mayvind]

Ah kinda late cound use this few weeks back but never mind better late then never !

[MAB77]

I think it's certainly valid that we're not obligated to use things that our community as a whole deems change-worthy when the tools to alter things more to our liking are available.

But I think it's just as valid to mention we're not playing PnP.  We're playing Neverwinter Nights.

Bioware designed this game for solo play, but also gave people a toolset to change whatever they want. There's no valid reason to stick to what Bioware made for single-player purposes in a multiplayer environment.

I will add to what Bluebomber said, that our first mission as developers is to provide an environment emulating the Ravenloft setting as best as possible, keeping the module both balanced and fun. This within reasons and the limitations of the game engine of course, but it is another argument in favor of balancing Timestop toward it's P&P version. No one can doubt that Timestop remains an eminently powerful spell, you just can't spam missile storms (and other offensive spells) anymore while Timestop is in effect.

[MJ_Johansson]

I've used, and arguably abused Timestop, especially when I was newer and had just gotten the spell, and the only thing I can say is this much, it wasnt really all that much fun for anyone to be timestop exploded with no ability to retaliate, so in the spirit of roleplay and such, I think this is an excellent change. Mages are still powerfull, they'll allways be powerfull. While mages with the old version of timestop certainly can be killed, most people wont try because they know the mage just needs to get that timestop off and you're probably dead.

As for Perfidus, if we cant kill them in timestop, I assume the monsters there cant kill us in timestop either, so that will sort itself. We've beat it without timestop before, and can again.

The strategy -we've- used to beat Sithicus didnt really rely on Timestop at all, untill we messed up or got unlucky, but it's Sithicus, messing up in a lvl 20+ area is supposed to be fatal.

[Syl]

This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.

You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession.

You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop.

So, odd question and this is more to make sure I understand the things you can't do. It says you cannot harm anything in the creature's expression.  But lets say, you have a friend on their way to be hanged. could either the rope, or the shackles be cut or unlocked? grant it to do this one would need a DM I guess but would these still be within the limitation?

Otherwise I've always disliked how you could blow things up while in time stop. that said I always figured it was a last resort and just didn't want the stuff spammed over, and over, and over.

Also, I had no idea the spell was recently changed

Edit: Oh hey... nvm just found the thread mentioning the change XD

[APorg]

The logic of the spell is that you are the only person who can act while everything else is frozen in time; this would suggest that you can't affect objects either while Time Stop is in effect, so you wouldn't be able to cut rope or unlock shackles. At least IMO.

[Apsalar]

You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession.

I think you can surmise from this that anything attached to a person cannot be affected (i.e. a noose around their neck.)

[Better Dread than Dead]

The logic of the spell is that you are the only person who can act while everything else is frozen in time; this would suggest that you can't affect objects either while Time Stop is in effect, so you wouldn't be able to cut rope or unlock shackles. At least IMO.

I feel it is worth noting the spell being called "Time Stop" is a misnomer, because it's really just a super version of Haste -- you're going incredibly fast while everyone else appears frozen in time.

[Syl]

You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession.

I think you can surmise from this that anything attached to a person cannot be affected (i.e. a noose around their neck.)

Drat. was worth asking.

[Norture]

No more using timestop to cheese people out of being hung! Yesssssssssssss!

[Syl]

No more using timestop to cheese people out of being hung! Yesssssssssssss!

It seemed like a very logical thing to do lol shame you can't cut a rope while time is stopped. [ your now SUPER FAST... but the strength of gumby.]

[Norture]

I've only seen it happen once but it's a really major boner-killer and just seems really cheap. Like if you want to go in and save someone with magic, go and kill everyone to rescue them! It's a lot less disappointing than standing there watching someone's bud get rescued while nobody can do anything about it.

[Dumas]

I've never known quite how to act ICly in those situations either. Someone suddenly vanishes from the noose and a bunch of guards are abruptly slaughtered before you can blink? If someone is moving so fast to do these things without being perceived... leaving no indication that they did it other than the results... Seems almost godly! And when time stops got chained... well, long periods of no action like that for those that didn't cast are kinda a bummer.

I like the change, and think it will inspire people to be more creative in solutions, rather than using Time Stop as an almost "win all". Certainly let's people interact more during some situations! That expanded RP right there is a great thing

[TheGrinningHound]

I think that at its current incarnation, Time Stop will still remain very much the key utility in wizards unleashing torrents of pain. And I say wizards, because the deadliest Time Stop combos will now mostly be in the hands of wizards who can afford to splash into spells like cloud kill, acid cloud, delayed blast fireball, etc, etc. Of course, sorcerers can take them, but it will come at a greater cost.

I do still believe it's a step in the right direction. But I don't think it's finished. If I'm reading this correctly, with 1d4+1 rounds of hasted spell casting, that's potentially 9-10 spells. On average, it's 5-6 spells. (Though I will say that I do very much like the randomness in its duration. That helps break up the bread-and-butter feel of wham bam Time Stop combos).

9 seconds is already a long time for a mage to do what he wants to. This would make it potentially.. 12-30 seconds? Out of just one casting?

While yes, it does stop a mage from using the easiest and most deadly combination of saveless spells, I think it's opened still for a lot of extremely deadly combinations. In short, while it's a step in the right direction, in its current form a clever wizard will have no trouble whatsoever emulating the damage of Time Stop + Isaacs Greater Missile Storm by layering AoE spells, and slowing movement (Or even Bigby Grappling) to keep them trapped inside the clouds for the second or two after the Time Stop collapses. It will look cooler, but it will be just as if not more deadly.

There are saves associated with a number of these AoE spells, and that makes it a huge difference. Evasion, fortitude saves. That's not something to be understated at all-- but I think if the goal was to try to make Timestop less offensive, that another hard look should be taken at the duration of the spell.

~~~

Also, I'm a little disappointed in the language we've used to encourage or support these changes. Time Stop isn't abusive if it's legally attainable and used within the rules of PvP. It's overpowered. And while it might be overpowered, and while it might be good for the mage player to recognize that it's overpowered, as long as the rules are followed in engagements there's just no right to call it abusive. And the fault for its presence and use isn't with the player, but with the staff for the way it exists within the current balance. That isn't to trash the staff, I should say. It's instead to assert that a player using abilities and combinations that are legal in every aspect of the game is simply not abusive for using them.

[APorg]

I think using Time Stop to layer AoE effects is perfectly fitting with the PnP intend of the spell; that's not a problem.

The deviation in what you mention AFAIK is that I don't think you can use Haste actions while Time Stopping in PnP; but I don't know if the devs can do much about that.

[APorg]

Actually I just rechecked the point on Haste and Time Stop stacking, and it was never explicitly against the rules that they couldn't stack -- just a popular house rule.

So even that objection isn't on solid ground.

[Arawn]

Also, I'm a little disappointed in the language we've used to encourage or support these changes. Time Stop isn't abusive if it's legally attainable and used within the rules of PvP. It's overpowered. And while it might be overpowered, and while it might be good for the mage player to recognize that it's overpowered, as long as the rules are followed in engagements there's just no right to call it abusive. And the fault for its presence and use isn't with the player, but with the staff for the way it exists within the current balance. That isn't to trash the staff, I should say. It's instead to assert that a player using abilities and combinations that are legal in every aspect of the game is simply not abusive for using them.

Well said.

[Syl]

Also, I'm a little disappointed in the language we've used to encourage or support these changes. Time Stop isn't abusive if it's legally attainable and used within the rules of PvP. It's overpowered. And while it might be overpowered, and while it might be good for the mage player to recognize that it's overpowered, as long as the rules are followed in engagements there's just no right to call it abusive. And the fault for its presence and use isn't with the player, but with the staff for the way it exists within the current balance. That isn't to trash the staff, I should say. It's instead to assert that a player using abilities and combinations that are legal in every aspect of the game is simply not abusive for using them.

If you know how something is over powered, yet you still continue to use it be it Legal or not, you are now abusing it's capabilities against lesser people. This would be like a vampire misting in and out of combat to avoid being hit to much. Or a Shadow dancer spamming HIPS to do the same thing. no one was stating that anyone was at fault. if something is used over and over because there is no way to fight it, it can be seen as abusive. Spamming knockdown can be seen as abusive and such is totally allowed, but. [shrugs]

Sorry didn't mean to get off topic.

[snowfox]

I think using Time Stop to layer AoE effects is perfectly fitting with the PnP intend of the spell; that's not a problem.

The deviation in what you mention AFAIK is that I don't think you can use Haste actions while Time Stopping in PnP; but I don't know if the devs can do much about that.

Normally, haste would not allow someone to cast two spells per round.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm

[Alan Hunter]

I think that at its current incarnation, Time Stop will still remain very much the key utility in wizards unleashing torrents of pain. And I say wizards, because the deadliest Time Stop combos will now mostly be in the hands of wizards who can afford to splash into spells like cloud kill, acid cloud, delayed blast fireball, etc, etc. Of course, sorcerers can take them, but it will come at a greater cost.

I do still believe it's a step in the right direction. But I don't think it's finished. If I'm reading this correctly, with 1d4+1 rounds of hasted spell casting, that's potentially 9-10 spells. On average, it's 5-6 spells. (Though I will say that I do very much like the randomness in its duration. That helps break up the bread-and-butter feel of wham bam Time Stop combos).

9 seconds is already a long time for a mage to do what he wants to. This would make it potentially.. 12-30 seconds? Out of just one casting?

While yes, it does stop a mage from using the easiest and most deadly combination of saveless spells, I think it's opened still for a lot of extremely deadly combinations. In short, while it's a step in the right direction, in its current form a clever wizard will have no trouble whatsoever emulating the damage of Time Stop + Isaacs Greater Missile Storm by layering AoE spells, and slowing movement (Or even Bigby Grappling) to keep them trapped inside the clouds for the second or two after the Time Stop collapses. It will look cooler, but it will be just as if not more deadly.

There are saves associated with a number of these AoE spells, and that makes it a huge difference. Evasion, fortitude saves. That's not something to be understated at all-- but I think if the goal was to try to make Timestop less offensive, that another hard look should be taken at the duration of the spell.

~~~

Also, I'm a little disappointed in the language we've used to encourage or support these changes. Time Stop isn't abusive if it's legally attainable and used within the rules of PvP. It's overpowered. And while it might be overpowered, and while it might be good for the mage player to recognize that it's overpowered, as long as the rules are followed in engagements there's just no right to call it abusive. And the fault for its presence and use isn't with the player, but with the staff for the way it exists within the current balance. That isn't to trash the staff, I should say. It's instead to assert that a player using abilities and combinations that are legal in every aspect of the game is simply not abusive for using them.

You make  a sound  valid view. And maybe my examples may be poor I apologize about that but its equalling  to say in contradiction that Time Stop can be considered abusive. In hindsight  because its attainable and follows the rules doesnt mean it should be sought and overused. Most  people,not all, would agree Time Stop is aquired for its abusive ability to take advantage at its successful win rate. Vey few use it elaborately in combat or role play in my experience. This has been a debate in many servers and arguments. Just because its attainable and fits to the rules doesnt mean it will not be abused or abusive. And you are quite right it is very overpowered. And theres plenty of reason to call it abusive especially when its use is higly known in certain pvp combinations or exploits which I cant mention to avoid misuse.

The problem is many mages, players, do not consider this because some, not all, have the I want to win attitude.  Which is normal but some take it overnoard. Theres plenty to call it abusive when its exploited but really Time Stop is the victim in this its gets a bad rep. because of those  that abuse it similiar to Dev Crit. And HIPS.

I disagree that its not the fault of the player especially those well known to the game and NWN. With great power comes great responsibility. Thebstaff are not really the ones to blame changing spell scripts is a pain in the arse to do and making sure it worls with the rest of the spells is time consuming. Thusly as a player and a community we should consider if something can be remotely abused/abusive how do we fix it before ita an issue?

A player whose advance using abilities and combinations to further thier success isnt totally wrong till its exploitation and that in itself breaks the rules of fair gaming by taking something known to  be exploitable and abusing  it. Freedom  for a player is equally important as a player who needs to keep that Freedom safe.

I dont think your stament is wrong you make a valued testiment to that view. I do agree however if evehryone is using the same combination for success it becomes an issue of balance. This is almost no diffrent than exploiting Camping, Spawn Killing, Weapon Spawn Points, Glitch Kills, or Abusing  Sagat's Uppercut Fient because it maximizes droping a player half thier life bar.

The temptation is there. Its up to a community or developers to decide if its truly an abuse or exploit. And up to players to decide if something is cheap or easy to use wether its worth it. If ots obtainable in th aystem ahould a ayer be penalized? No, but niether should a player be done in by a legal exploit. Just because its there and its easy doesnt mean we have too.

Thats my take and view hopefully thisbhelps in some way. Whatever  gets decided lets do it together and as a community. Only we can make the dream prosper.

[Bad_Bud]

The way our PvP rules are set up, one cannot enter into PvP with another player without due cause. For villains, this means many people will have due cause to try and gank them, but the villain will have no ability to fight back until having been attacked. Imagine the first time a high level mage enters into the conflict against this villain, and historically I think this has happened - the villain's first interaction is to be caught in timestop and die. Villain didn't know there was an enemy, villain didn't get to act, villain didn't get to make a saving throw, villain didn't get to roleplay. Game over.

- PvP should always be done to further the positive experience of all sides and as part of a roleplay event. Turning instantly toward trying to kill each other seldom leads to more roleplay, and much more often just ends it. Try alternate methods in playing out the IC fighting first (for example, use emotes, rolls and subdual) before giving taking the other character's life, and never PvP to get a sense of winning, but always to further the story.

- When engaging in PvP, be responsible to the fact that it's a situation that can cause OOC grievance. Consider taking pre-emptive measures - possibly communicating with the opposing part OOCly to make sure they don't feel violated in their roleplay. If you during the conflict feel the opposing part isn't able to satisfyingly handle the IC consequence of their actions, seek advice with the DM team instead of pressing forward.

- Unless you have justifiable reason to assume that the counterpart is interested in the form of PvP and that it will enhance their experience, your character may not actively attack another character without overriding in-character reason and only when the victim has actively sought into the conflict. This encompass extensive provoking, aggressive or confrontational behaviour by the victim, if they are intruding upon you and extensively refuse to withdraw, or if they are being member of a faction your faction is in conflict with. Retaliation of an attack of self or close ally is also legitimate reason to engage in PvP. In doubt, seek DM advice.

While it may not be explicitly against the rules to do things like this, it goes against the spirit of them. It's about as gray as it gets, therefore I call it discourteous. It's not fun or fulfilling, it's not roleplay. With great power comes great responsibility.