Timestop nerf

[julienchab]

Guess I'll be the one getting this out here. The subject I think as been discussed on other threads, but here is some of the points I'd like to point out already:

Timestop was designed as an offensive spell, and it's now become a defensive spell, which is pretty much like greater sanctuary. There isn't much use to have a spell that will pretty much only allow you to buff your allies, since you buff your allies /before/ you have to fight.

Timestop was pretty much the only offensive spell that was really useful for any high level dungeon, and now that this is taken away, are the dungeons going to be nerf in consequence? Because I wish you a big good luck doing perfidus/sithicus/ghastria if your mage can't timestop to save the day, especially in a place like Sithicus.

Wizards will be able to live through it, since they have access to other spells of the ninth circle, but this will hurt sorcerors in an enormous way. It was the best lvl 9 spell ,and considering they could only choose 3 of them, everyone had it. The other ninth circle spells are decent, but they are very situational, and most of them can't be use in places like ghastria/sithicus/perfidus.

Timestop has been a life safer from everyone who has been doing some high tier dungeon and this nerf sounds more like a nerf made to PvP of mages, without thinking of the effects this will have on the difficulty of the dungeons on the server. There are some ways to beat a mage, you just need to be smart about it.

[Mereyn]

Consider that spells, particularly offensive ones with a duration that expands beyond the length of Time Stop will still deal damage.
Carefully planning and planting an Acid Fog or a Delayed Blast Fireball (etc.) will still have the desired effect. And, perhaps I may be called out for
sprinkling salt into wounds again (insult upon injury, whichever phrase you like more), but the change must have been coming quite a while.
Especially since it threw off the balance of this server, which I'm sure will be adjusted so that people can still run dungeons with patience, a good group
and tactics. Then again, I'm the person who started the last discussion on Time Stop and how it should be changed to fit the P&P ruleset more.

The other option is of course to remain in stagnation and to never adjust the systems for something new and bold, which may create a new challenge for
high level characters.

[ladylena]

I think it's great that it's being changed to better reflect pnp rules. I always thought being able to cast offensive magic during timestop was OP. Although I do hope the dungeons that use it will be adjusted. Don't the priests in perfidus cast timestop quite a lot?

[julienchab]

The timing of it is quite curious considering certain events that have happened recently. And changing it will outbalance the way dungeons are planned, as right now that are planned for people who can timestop.

[ladylena]

Yeah, I'm sure they have taken that into consideration. I mean why would they make a big change like this without taking such into consideration.

[dazza555]

Could've done with it a few weeks ago tbh. Honestly I welcone it and I'm sure it just means spellcasters will have to be more team reliant which isn't a bad thing because that encourages rp and character development.

[Mereyn]

Although I believe it to be a violation of some rule to disclose details about dungeons and how they work, I for a fact have run dungeons that you gave examples of.
At no point was Time Stop an absolute 100% necessity to complete the challenges.

[Arawn]

I should mention this change was first proposed more than two years ago; it just took us this long to make sure we gave proper consideration to mechanics and balance. We'll be tweaking the AI and potentially some of the dungeons to adjust.

[BahamutZ3RO]

I've got no problem with the spell -- or any other spells -- being brought in line with PnP.

[Master Librarian]

I've got no problem with the spell -- or any other spells -- being brought in line with PnP.

Just going to second this.

[Legion XXI]

I've got no problem with the spell -- or any other spells -- being brought in line with PnP.

Just going to second this.

Agreed.  Also, as far as balance issues go-  Nobody asked for dungeons to be rebalanced (harder) when we got like 100 spells added that open up lots of ways to complete them easier.  I think it's not really fair to act like it's going to completely throw off "balance" to change one spell that was only usable by the top 5% of wizards/sorcs on the server anyways.

It's still extremely powerful, you just have to do things with it other than pile on unblockable magic damage to an enemy who can't fight back, run, or heal.  But you're free to mord/dispel them, stack AoE spells under them, haste/acid sheathe/spell mantle yourself.  There's a lot you can do with this spell still, and I'd say to let it play out for a while and get a feel for the "new" timestop before immediately saying it's some broken thing that you can't use anymore.

[McNastea]

This isn't the end of high level dungeons, it's just gonna take a little adjustment-both from a player perspective in terms of strategy and on the dev side as well. There are some ai issues that come to mind when I think of a mage not having timestop for offensive use in Sithicus.

Still, overall, I think it's probably for the best. In the end I think things will be a lot more fun without having that crutch to lean on.

[Calliope]

Could've done with it a few weeks ago tbh.

I'll say 

Moreover, when I've been in a party using timestop, I still thought it was boring and over-powered. Every encounter in which it was employed, everything was dead before my PC even got to move.

As far as being designed for offense, maybe, but in NWN (at least) it's only supposed to last 9 seconds, right? Here it lasts 2 to 5 rounds? When you're under it, the spell feels like it lasts forever.

[Blight]

Oh no, High level mages will actually start having to click on several "Win" buttons in a row rather than only one.

[Bad_Bud]

Having a tool like this in the hands of any caster of sufficient level is irresponsible and apparently too tempting to not abuse. I'm sorry to see some of the friendlier dungeon uses go, but the spell is discourteous in PvP and has been abused for the better part of a decade.

[julienchab]

Having a tool like this in the hands of any caster of sufficient level is irresponsible and apparently too tempting to not abuse. I'm sorry to see some of the friendlier dungeon uses go, but the spell is discourteous in PvP and has been abused for the better part of a decade.

I feel sorry that using a spell thats available for PvP while following all rules is considered abusing and discourteous.

[Blight]

Note the lack of sarcastic comment.

None needed.

[FinalHeaven]

This thread sure became a thread real fast.

I think it's a good change solely because it effects everyone equally.

There are still easy and "abusive" ways to kill folks in PvP.

[Arawn]

Good Doctor, your tone is unnecessary. This isn't a thread for accusations or gloating. It is to invite constructive comments from the community on an upcoming change.

[Bluebomber4evr]

Timestop was designed as an offensive spell,

Nope. This is demonstrably false.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm

This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.

You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession.

You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop.

Time Stop was always designed to be a defensive spell. Full stop. Bioware screwed up the implementation, we're just fixing it to be the way D&D's designers meant it to work.

[APorg]

I've got no problem with the spell -- or any other spells -- being brought in line with PnP.

Just going to second this.

Agreed.  Also, as far as balance issues go-  Nobody asked for dungeons to be rebalanced (harder) when we got like 100 spells added that open up lots of ways to complete them easier.  I think it's not really fair to act like it's going to completely throw off "balance" to change one spell that was only usable by the top 5% of wizards/sorcs on the server anyways.

It's still extremely powerful, you just have to do things with it other than pile on unblockable magic damage to an enemy who can't fight back, run, or heal.  But you're free to mord/dispel them, stack AoE spells under them, haste/acid sheathe/spell mantle yourself.  There's a lot you can do with this spell still, and I'd say to let it play out for a while and get a feel for the "new" timestop before immediately saying it's some broken thing that you can't use anymore.

+1.

Better a nerf that brings the spell into alignment with the PnP rules rather than one that sends it back to its NWN original version or otherwise breaks or removes it.

[julienchab]

Timestop was designed as an offensive spell,

Nope. This is demonstrably false.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm

This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.

You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession.

You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop.

Time Stop was always designed to be a defensive spell. Full stop. Bioware screwed up the implementation, we're just fixing it to be the way D&D's designers meant it to work.

I was talking of neverwinter here, sorry. When I read a spell description, it usualy tells me if a spell is either defensive or offensive.

Spell level: sorcerer/wizard 9
Innate level: 9
School: transmutation
Components: verbal
Range: personal
Area of effect: caster
Duration: 9 seconds
Save: none
Spell resistance: no

Description: The caster is able to defy the sands of time, casting spells, moving about, and attacking normally while the rest of the world appears suspended, as if in stasis.

When I read this, it sounds pretty offensive to me.

[Bluebomber4evr]

Timestop was designed as an offensive spell,

Nope. This is demonstrably false.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm

This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.

You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession.

You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop.

Time Stop was always designed to be a defensive spell. Full stop. Bioware screwed up the implementation, we're just fixing it to be the way D&D's designers meant it to work.

I was talking of neverwinter here, sorry. When I read a spell description, it usualy tells me if a spell is either defensive or offensive.

Spell level: sorcerer/wizard 9
Innate level: 9
School: transmutation
Components: verbal
Range: personal
Area of effect: caster
Duration: 9 seconds
Save: none
Spell resistance: no

Description: The caster is able to defy the sands of time, casting spells, moving about, and attacking normally while the rest of the world appears suspended, as if in stasis.

When I read this, it sounds pretty offensive to me.

So what? Bioware screwed up the way the spell is supposed to work in D&D. We're not obligated to use that screwup (regardless of whether that screwup was intentional or accidental), particularly when Bioware gave us the ability to change any spell via the toolset.

[FinalHeaven]

I think it's certainly valid that we're not obligated to use things that our community as a whole deems change-worthy when the tools to alter things more to our liking are available.

But I think it's just as valid to mention we're not playing PnP.  We're playing Neverwinter Nights.

[Bluebomber4evr]

I think it's certainly valid that we're not obligated to use things that our community as a whole deems change-worthy when the tools to alter things more to our liking are available.

But I think it's just as valid to mention we're not playing PnP.  We're playing Neverwinter Nights.

Bioware designed this game for solo play, but also gave people a toolset to change whatever they want. There's no valid reason to stick to what Bioware made for single-player purposes in a multiplayer environment.