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Author Topic: Item Request Discussion Thread v2  (Read 110561 times)

Re: Item Request Discussion Thread v2
« Reply #425 on: February 14, 2024, 09:18:59 PM »
having a -5 to attack would overwrite the +2 buff to ranged attack, i believe. Thus netting a -3 to ranged attack.

Ah no, it's only a -5 to attack with the item itself. Basically the -5 is there because it is decorative and not meant to be swung around. A ready example would be me trying to cast with Two Weapon Fighting.
Spoiler: show

here is my own Warlock wielding just his staff...


here is my own warlock wielding a staff and a dagger. he does not have Two Weapon Fighting, and the dagger is a light weapon. This lowers his AB slightly.


here you will see my warlock attack with eldritch blast with just the staff, and then switch to dual wield which incurs an Attack Decrease... however because Eldritch Blast has nothing to do with the held items the AB is unchanged between the two instances. Both attack rolls are made at +14



It's not at all intended to be a melee weapon and I did my best to try and tailor it to just Warlock as it would not be intended for other classes for use.

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Re: Item Request Discussion Thread v2
« Reply #426 on: February 14, 2024, 09:22:49 PM »
having a -5 to attack would overwrite the +2 buff to ranged attack, i believe. Thus netting a -3 to ranged attack.

Ah no, it's only a -5 to attack with the item itself. Basically the -5 is there because it is decorative and not meant to be swung around. A ready example would be me trying to cast with Two Weapon Fighting.
Spoiler: show

here is my own Warlock wielding just his staff...


here is my own warlock wielding a staff and a dagger. he does not have Two Weapon Fighting, and the dagger is a light weapon. This lowers his AB slightly.


here you will see my warlock attack with eldritch blast with just the staff, and then switch to dual wield which incurs an Attack Decrease... however because Eldritch Blast has nothing to do with the held items the AB is unchanged between the two instances. Both attack rolls are made at +14



It's not at all intended to be a melee weapon and I did my best to try and tailor it to just Warlock as it would not be intended for other classes for use.

as far as i am aware, a -5 to attack would also apply to ranged attacks, dual-wielding is, i believe naturally a -8/-4, thus taken into account?
You can correct me if I'm wrong, or ons of the devs' can.
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Re: Item Request Discussion Thread v2
« Reply #427 on: February 14, 2024, 10:05:33 PM »
I strongly advise against adding any feats to any items, let alone two. As repeated several times, the problem remains that once a feat is on an item there is little reasons to invest in that feat at level ups. Feats should be invested in, not given freely.

Exceptions for underwhelming feats may be considered as they would never be selected at all anyway, but not strong feats, class specific feats, and those with prerequisites. History has proven it was a bad idea to grant feats on items, we now prefer to abstain.

We also try to avoid items that have too many penalties, or penalties that are too high.
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Re: Item Request Discussion Thread v2
« Reply #428 on: February 14, 2024, 10:33:25 PM »
I strongly advise against adding any feats to any items, let alone two. As repeated several times, the problem remains that once a feat is on an item there is little reasons to invest in that feat at level ups. Feats should be invested in, not given freely.

Exceptions for underwhelming feats may be considered as they would never be selected at all anyway, but not strong feats, class specific feats, and those with prerequisites. History has proven it was a bad idea to grant feats on items, we now prefer to abstain.

We also try to avoid items that have too many penalties, or penalties that are too high.

Going to just, perhaps, hijack, to take this comment
With the current sentiment, perhaps older "allowed" itemd should be re-evealuated>
Warmage chains for example are currently next to useless after their nerf. While they were perhaps overpowered before, there's now next to no reason to ever take them.
the same would go for other items. Honestly most lootables in the realms of POTM.

I understand the wish to combat power creep, but if new items aren't allowed due to these constraints, there are perhaps several other old items that simply clutter up the loot pool by now.  I would perhaps argue a focus of the team upon the irrelevant items in the pool currently instead of trying to prevent new ones.

There's already different values as to rarity as i understand. Feel free to disagree with me upon this.
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Re: Item Request Discussion Thread v2
« Reply #429 on: February 14, 2024, 10:45:38 PM »
as far as i am aware, a -5 to attack would also apply to ranged attacks, dual-wielding is, i believe naturally a -8/-4, thus taken into account?
You can correct me if I'm wrong, or ons of the devs' can.

So I did a test on a warlock on the test server with an Athasian bone dagger which has -2 Enhancement Bonus more or less the same thing -2 AB. Oddly enough it subtracted which was surprising to me. It doesn't make sense and that's not at all how it works in tabletop D&D.

Then I remembered: the off hand weapon my warlock on the server was carrying was 'The Athame' which has an attack penalty attached to it. So clearly, clearly Enhancement Bonus and Attack Bonus must differ in that regard where a -2EB weapon will reduce all AB by 2 and not just the weapon...

Apparently not. I tried eldritch blasting some crabs. Once with the Athame equipped (and just the Athame) and one without. It reduced the AB, but no AB reduction when Staff was primary hand and dagger was off hand?

His staff does not have any AB modification but decided to try it with a van richten book. no penalty when the -1 Attack dagger was wielded in the offhand.

I for some reason also had a +1AB dagger and decided to see if it would increase AB by wielding a weapon with +1 AB and it did not. It only takes reductions not additions... it sounds like this is a bug with Warlock. Why would the sharpness or lackthereof of a weapon indicate your ability to hit with a spell that has nothing to do with the weapon itself?

TL;DR

What you're describing is a bug, and it can be avoided if you put a weapon with the - AB into the off hand rather than the primary.

Anyway going to move this info over to a bug fix report
« Last Edit: February 14, 2024, 11:10:46 PM by Regular Ordinary Birdman »

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Re: Item Request Discussion Thread v2
« Reply #430 on: February 14, 2024, 10:56:49 PM »
Ryujin, there is no such thing as useless item. Even just selling them for gold is a valid purpose on its own.

There is a wide margin between a useless and an overpowered item too. The key to a good item is not to make it overly powerful, it needs only to provide a little something that a crafted item can't do, so that when you buff said item with magic it will be different, but comparable to a crafted item in power.

If we add less items than we used to, it's very much because items that were genuinely needed and addressing issues have already been added in our near 20 years of existence. It is harder now to include new items without making them powerful items with over the top penalties to counter balance. Such items however do not improve the module.

It's not my place to void the work of previous devs and decide what should stay or not. I can only control what I add myself. But if you think some specific items are overpowered and need to be rebalanced do list them, indicating why and how they'd need a reblance. The dev them will review if its pertinent to do so.
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Ryujin

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Re: Item Request Discussion Thread v2
« Reply #431 on: February 14, 2024, 11:12:20 PM »
Ryujin, there is no such thing as useless item. Even just selling them for gold is a valid purpose on its own.


I am not disagreeing. I'm not trying to fight you, honestly.
I do apologize if it came across as needlessly antagonistic.

While i am of the opinion that the loot pool should offer things that would exceed the crafted stuff (Which it does in some cases)

The item that i highlighted prior mainly, in my view, came across as simply a 'nerf' to whomever wielded it.

Though if i were to take an extremely objective MMO view,  i could point out some items which are 'useless' in the grand scheme of things. Though perhaps this is more to a 'rarity' discusson. I'll leave any further comments from now on, as to this. You have my discord if you wish to discuss further, MAB. :)
« Last Edit: February 14, 2024, 11:14:13 PM by Ryujin »
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Re: Item Request Discussion Thread v2
« Reply #432 on: February 14, 2024, 11:37:22 PM »
Isn't there something cool about a legitimately powerful, unique item, that has weaknesses you can actually exploit, rather than negligible ones? I think of cursed weapons and hexed armour when I think in-genre. Why not let people take those risks for a tradeoff that they deem worth it? The other option is just having insanely rare items that are almost as good as enchanted ones, and the rest of the loot table is like -4 fear saves rapiers that don't do bonus damage after a certain level.
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Re: Item Request Discussion Thread v2
« Reply #433 on: February 15, 2024, 05:31:04 AM »
I strongly advise against adding any feats to any items, let alone two. As repeated several times, the problem remains that once a feat is on an item there is little reasons to invest in that feat at level ups. Feats should be invested in, not given freely.

Exceptions for underwhelming feats may be considered as they would never be selected at all anyway, but not strong feats, class specific feats, and those with prerequisites. History has proven it was a bad idea to grant feats on items, we now prefer to abstain.

We also try to avoid items that have too many penalties, or penalties that are too high.

Going to just, perhaps, hijack, to take this comment
With the current sentiment, perhaps older "allowed" itemd should be re-evealuated>
Warmage chains for example are currently next to useless after their nerf. While they were perhaps overpowered before, there's now next to no reason to ever take them.
the same would go for other items. Honestly most lootables in the realms of POTM.

I understand the wish to combat power creep, but if new items aren't allowed due to these constraints, there are perhaps several other old items that simply clutter up the loot pool by now.  I would perhaps argue a focus of the team upon the irrelevant items in the pool currently instead of trying to prevent new ones.

There's already different values as to rarity as i understand. Feel free to disagree with me upon this.

I have always thought it was strange that the penalties of the mage chains weren't reduced when it's power was lessened. Like maybe 10% vulnerabilities instead of 25% ?

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Re: Item Request Discussion Thread v2
« Reply #434 on: February 15, 2024, 05:38:04 AM »
I am uninvolved with this particular item, but I suspect it is to keep the value of the item lower so it would drop more often. Anyhow it will be reviewed.

SardineTheAncestor, I am not against powerful items, but it's an issue when they are so good that all members of that class only want that particular item. I am resolutely against items with feats though.
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Re: Item Request Discussion Thread v2
« Reply #435 on: February 15, 2024, 06:22:00 AM »
If you're poking at the chains, can you also investigate the robes of transcendental thought? Ever since the umd recalculation these two items have virtually ceased to drop, meanwhile the staff of scientific wizardry is still seen now and again.

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Re: Item Request Discussion Thread v2
« Reply #436 on: February 18, 2024, 05:46:57 PM »
I strongly advise against adding any feats to any items, let alone two. As repeated several times, the problem remains that once a feat is on an item there is little reasons to invest in that feat at level ups. Feats should be invested in, not given freely.

I general i agree, but in the case of precursor feats such as invocation focus i think it would be fine.
A character invested into saving throw invocations will get invocation focus AND greater invocation focus.
An item with the lesser version of the feat would only act as a crutch for people who want to dabble (same as a apprentice evoker staff for example)
and a specialized character who invested into the feats still has the advantage.

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Re: Item Request Discussion Thread v2
« Reply #437 on: February 18, 2024, 06:06:52 PM »
The crutch is the problem. Choices and consequences are important. The more feats on items, the more they get ignored at level ups because the crutch is often good enough to get by. To dabble one should pick the feat not get it free whenever they want it.
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Re: Item Request Discussion Thread v2
« Reply #438 on: February 19, 2024, 05:06:23 AM »
More voodan only gear plz. Can be slots, stats, feats or bonuses. A ring that provides different types of turn spirit types (undead, animal, etc.)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2024, 05:08:39 AM by Lady_luck »
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Re: Item Request Discussion Thread v2
« Reply #439 on: February 19, 2024, 06:32:37 AM »
The crutch is the problem. Choices and consequences are important. The more feats on items, the more they get ignored at level ups because the crutch is often good enough to get by. To dabble one should pick the feat not get it free whenever they want it.

I don't think that holds true as a general rule, it heavily depends on what feats and how they are implemented.

In the case of saving throw DCs, there is not really a just good enough scenario. The more you invest, the better your spells are.
Take the apprentice staffs for example, they are widely available as common drops and even purchaseable from vendors.
Yet most wizards and sorcerer will pick up spell focus + greater spell focus for three schools of magic they want to specialize in,
because just spell focus (and often even greater spell focus due to the bloated saves, but that is another topic entirely) does not cut it.
This holds even more true to warlock due to their inherently lower spell level and thus DCs.
If you want to use them at least somewhat reliably, you have to heavily invest into charisma and take invocation focus and greater invocation focus.

Another factor is item rarity. Take the monks training cowl for example, it has a negligible downside of slightly lowering your spot
and gives one of the most important feats for any character that wants to do combat, blind-fight.
But due to its rarity, people tend to not build around. Who knows when and if you even gonna get your hands on one, so everyone just takes the feat.

Also a big point is, what other gear is available for the slot and is it worth skimping out on the feat.
Another example here: the hexbands a very common drop for the hexblade.
It grants the most important feat to increase your curse DC (curse focus 2-6 increased DC depending on your hexblade level) at no downside.
I know not a single hexblade who uses curses and does not pick up the feat.
If you look at what other options are available, for example enchanted steel plated ancient dire rhino gloves (+1 uni save, +4 discipline, +4 parry, +3 antagonize)
That is a lot more value then you can get out of a single feat.


A bad offender against all these metrics and where i would agree with you is for example moonfriend.
It grants a feat that every class with turn undead wants (extra turning),
at no downside,
in a slot with not to many high value options (ring)
is very common and cheap.


In contrast,
granting invocation focus ( a mildly useful feat for a warlock that does not specialize in DCs in the first place),
with a downside,
in a slot where there are other great options,
being somewhat rare.

Now that really would not be a big deal.
(FYI i do not support suggestions of the OP, giving invocation focus AND spell pen on one item, is way over the top.
Greater spell pen/invocation focus should be reserved for characters to invested at level ups)



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Re: Item Request Discussion Thread v2
« Reply #440 on: February 19, 2024, 06:45:25 AM »
No I disagree, when you give Invocation focus free, you lessen the worth of the investment and diminish the competitive edge of those that bought it on level ups. We usually do not put class specific feats or features on items for that reason.

The only feats on items that should be considered are those addressing an issue (like the apron allowing all classes to craft), or minor general feats that are usually ignored no matter what.
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Re: Item Request Discussion Thread v2
« Reply #441 on: February 19, 2024, 10:04:44 AM »
I'm curious too about how the robes and the chains with automatic quickened spell 1 became so elusive (I've seen iron martyrs, dragon scales, ecc drop but never ever the chains and the robes). They are a great qol items but they are certainly not very powerful. The edge scenario would be a warlock using them but even then you're still looking at a qol thing.

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Re: Item Request Discussion Thread v2
« Reply #442 on: February 19, 2024, 10:36:50 AM »
I'm curious too about how the robes and the chains with automatic quickened spell 1 became so elusive (I've seen iron martyrs, dragon scales, ecc drop but never ever the chains and the robes). They are a great qol items but they are certainly not very powerful. The edge scenario would be a warlock using them but even then you're still looking at a qol thing.

Ever since the UMD/Price increase I have not seen either of these items drop at all, nor anyone save one even selling them. I would think they got knocked off the loot table entirely as they must go above the max value allowed now.

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Re: Item Request Discussion Thread v2
« Reply #443 on: February 19, 2024, 11:23:17 AM »
This is a reminder to all that this thread is only to discuss the items that were submitted in the Item Request thread. For anything else please open a different thread.

That being said these items are still in the tables, but it is likely that their value makes them nearly impossible to drop. It is on our to do list to review and adjust these items so that they may drop again, though this will invariably involve a nerf of said items to bring them down below the 8k value threshold.
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Re: Item Request Discussion Thread v2
« Reply #444 on: February 19, 2024, 04:00:36 PM »
Guys,

Feel free to create interesting and flavorful items for the vault. This includes both items that have feats and other unique properties as well as items with a more straight forward bonus. Whether or not an item gets added ultimately depends on sparking developer interest. Sure, we'll often tune suggestions from players, but the base idea has to fill a niche not yet satisfied. Play around in the tool set and see what you can come up with!

While you're doing that, consider how the item will be used and place novel draw backs on the item as need. Items that have massive skill bonus decreased on skills unlikely to be used isn't really a great way to go about balancing an item. Try to find ways to place meaningful drawbacks that could actually cause someone to fail a check that matters someday. Balance that with making the item attractive enough so that players will consider the risk to be worth it.

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Re: Item Request Discussion Thread v2
« Reply #445 on: February 27, 2024, 05:26:11 PM »
https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=44496.msg813862#msg813862

Gang, I require assistance in balancing these. I want them to be thematic to the domain they're related to, one for each primary shaman domain.

Edit: also better descriptions lol
« Last Edit: February 27, 2024, 05:30:45 PM by Stormy »

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Re: Item Request Discussion Thread v2
« Reply #446 on: February 27, 2024, 05:39:08 PM »
https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=44496.msg813862#msg813862

Gang, I require assistance in balancing these. I want them to be thematic to the domain they're related to, one for each primary shaman domain.

Edit: also better descriptions lol

you'll need to use the toolset to make them.  what can and cannot be put on items and how much they cost
and youll have to make sure you use the haks and such right or else it wont be correct, since POTM adjusts item property values by quite a lot some times
especially when it comes to items with casts of spells on them

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Re: Item Request Discussion Thread v2
« Reply #447 on: February 27, 2024, 07:30:32 PM »
Indeed you should always create your items through the toolset and check what is possible before submitting them in. When you create the items in the toolset it will tell you the value of said item. This will help you evaluate if it has a chance to drop or not. It has to be lower than 8k to have a chance to drop.

That said, all your items can be created as far as I can tell. However...

Drop the feats on all your items. I cannot stress enough how bad it is to grant feats on items. Once such items hits the module, it kills any reason to ever invest in that feat to begin with. It does not matter that it be a strong or weak feat. If it is a strong one you just gave it for free to a wide number of players, at the very least all players with UMD. Even if you endeavour to keep it near the 8k limit, it's only a matter of time before it becomes reliably available. And if it's a weak feat, you entirely invalidate the marginal element that made special and different the characters of players picking a feat for its thematic and roleplay value. If they invest to pick such feat so should you. Yes I know we have plenty of items with feats in already, its no reason to add more.

An item summoning 10 elementals seems a tad excessive. I'd go with 1 to 3 summons at most. I also believe we already have items summoning such elementals, but these elementals are rather weak too IIRC. Still they would be sufficient to clear lower level dungeons effortlessly. Probably best avoided.

Wraps of the Healing Shaman.
A -6 penalty to a skill the shamans do not have as a class skill and that they do not use ever is no penalty at all. It should be on something meaningful like concentration instead.
We also try to avoid needlessly high penalties on items, dropping the feat will allow you to reduce it though.

Hands of the Reaping Shaman.
As per the given instructions penalties to ability scores should be avoided. A Fortitude ST malus would be better.

Gloves of the Grave shaman
Same comment regarding the antagonize skill penalty, but you'll likely not need it at all by dropping the feat anyway.

Gauntlets of the Necromancer shaman
You set it to 20 charges, but haven't indicated how many charges per use, nor the spell level at which they would be cast .
As it stands your item could be worth more than 168754 GP or as little as 2500 gp, neither of which would do.

Visor of the Sun Shaman
Except vs instant death, no items should provide blanket immunities.

Trophy of the Beast Shaman
Just no. These feets should be invested in, not granted for free. IIRC there already are belts providing that kind of SR too.
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Re: Item Request Discussion Thread v2
« Reply #448 on: February 28, 2024, 12:50:59 PM »
Guys,

Feel free to create interesting and flavorful items for the vault. This includes both items that have feats and other unique properties as well as items with a more straight forward bonus. Whether or not an item gets added ultimately depends on sparking developer interest. Sure, we'll often tune suggestions from players, but the base idea has to fill a niche not yet satisfied. Play around in the tool set and see what you can come up with!

While you're doing that, consider how the item will be used and place novel draw backs on the item as need. Items that have massive skill bonus decreased on skills unlikely to be used isn't really a great way to go about balancing an item. Try to find ways to place meaningful drawbacks that could actually cause someone to fail a check that matters someday. Balance that with making the item attractive enough so that players will consider the risk to be worth it.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2024, 12:54:53 PM by Cassius »

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Re: Item Request Discussion Thread v2
« Reply #449 on: March 07, 2024, 10:24:41 PM »
https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=44496.msg814807#msg814807

Alot of people use Greatswords and very few use Axes/Flails. I've barely seen any good In Game items for greataxes either, so.