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Author Topic: Feat progression and rebalancing  (Read 11304 times)

Arcibel

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Re: Feat progression and rebalancing
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2016, 06:38:04 PM »
i think that the solution could be in create a new language(The language of magic) with the property to scribe scroll, this language could be added as a feat. If you choose that feat you can choose scribe scroll for write spells.  This language should be difficult to learn in ic so his requirement should be a high int and use a language slot as the others.

The other that i think. If is difficult to be "caster class" in the beggining(lower levels), so if we degrade some spells caster level could be more easy be a mage at low levels.

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Re: Feat progression and rebalancing
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2016, 07:02:19 PM »
In total, wizards have three huge advantages over sorcerers. Skill points, feats, and spell variety-which is huge. A sorcerer at level 20 might get 6 level 9 spells per day, that's true, but they can know at most 3 spells from each circle 6 and above while a wizard with sufficient resources can know every spell. Considering most of the bread and butter ward spells at that point are mass or self target only (shadow shield, Premonition, shapechange, protection from spells, etc) the lack of spell slots for wizards is kind of balanced out.

Having skill points to spend on cross class skills is great, considering a non human sorcerer with the default 12 int gets three skill points per level while a wizard with 16 can tag nearly twice as many. That's a free cross class skill, while a sorcerer to cross class is giving up 2/3s of their skill points to level in that skill.

As far as the feats go, it seems wizard studying is the RPing reason for the bonus feats, while sorcerers have real world experience so you get (drumroll please) Weapon Proficiency (Simple). One feat.

I'm not going to argue sorcerers aren't viable or are crippled, but they are not on the level of an equivalent wizard. In all honesty, my recommendation would be to give sorcerers more, non magic class skills. It makes sense, for the same reason they're given simple weapon proficiency--they've been out learning about the rest of the world and it would mitigate the intelligence difference without doing anything too insane. Sorcs would still be as limited with what points they do have as ever.
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Re: Feat progression and rebalancing
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2016, 07:21:02 PM »
Your very first sentence should give you pause. The most important advantage of Wizards over Sorcerors is the spell variety, yes, but you can't really bring that up while ignoring the point that this variety is greatly reduced on NWN.

So let's put it in cold, clear terms: in exchange for the fact that their defining advantage is seriously limited by the NWN engine, Wizards get two extra Feats on PotM. This is not two "huge" advantages; it's recognition that the Wizard's one true advantage is severely limited by the game engine.

The only really good argument, in my opinion, for proposing that Wizards deserve less Feats now is to argue that the increased spell diversity on PoTM mitigates the original scarcity of NWN's spells. And while that's a logical argument, it's worth bearing in mind that the spell selection on PoTM is _still_ relatively limited; and that if you start going down this path, it's also an argument to reduce Feats for Rangers, and any other class that gets improved class features.

(Edit note: reworded some phrases)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 07:50:59 PM by aprogressivist »
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Arcibel

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Re: Feat progression and rebalancing
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2016, 07:33:04 PM »
well... nobody likes my idea mommy.

APorg

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Re: Feat progression and rebalancing
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2016, 08:01:06 PM »
Ugh, never mind; it's six feats, I'm tired and can't count :P
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Bad_Bud

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Re: Feat progression and rebalancing
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2016, 08:12:14 PM »
So let's put it in cold, clear terms: in exchange for the fact that their defining advantage is seriously limited by the NWN engine, Wizards get two extra Feats on PotM. This is not two "huge" advantages; it's recognition that the Wizard's one true advantage is severely limited by the game engine.

Look, I don't want to enter some back and forth here, but this statement is misleading. While wizards may not get to enjoy quite the full selection of spells compared to pen and paper, wizards have a greater advantage that isn't present in any tabletop game: running the same dungeons hundreds of times. Players are therefore able to intricately know and exploit the weaknesses of every mob in every dungeon (if one exists), due to unnatural foreknowledge. Dungeoning is primarily what spells are used for in POTM.

APorg

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Re: Feat progression and rebalancing
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2016, 08:30:45 PM »

Look, I don't want to enter some back and forth here, but this statement is misleading. While wizards may not get to enjoy quite the full selection of spells compared to pen and paper, wizards have a greater advantage that isn't present in any tabletop game: running the same dungeons hundreds of times. Players are therefore able to intricately know and exploit the weaknesses of every mob in every dungeon (if one exists), due to unnatural foreknowledge. Dungeoning is primarily what spells are used for in POTM.

This advantage could  be in a TT game ...  a clever Wizard always does his best to recon his enemies.  I mean, I take your point about "unnatural knowledge", and yes, Wizards are most flexible, but they're not the only ones who benefit from this.

Sorcerers can choose fire spells at level when they know'll be fighting mummies, then switch to other spells once they level and know they'll be facing other foes. Yes, they're less flexible than Wizards. But there's usually enough stuff that's vulnerable to what the Sorcerors has chose , that they can do plenty dungeons  as they wait to level.

I mean, I've seen Natalie nuke all kinds of dungeons with ease. My wizard is stuck doing buffs because she's got all the buffs people need. We're both doing what we do with our "unnatural knowledge" and I don't think either of us gets particularly more out it.


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Re: Feat progression and rebalancing
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2016, 09:05:03 PM »

I'm not going to argue sorcerers aren't viable or are crippled, but they are not on the level of an equivalent wizard. In all honesty, my recommendation would be to give sorcerers more, non magic class skills. It makes sense, for the same reason they're given simple weapon proficiency--they've been out learning about the rest of the world and it would mitigate the intelligence difference without doing anything too insane. Sorcs would still be as limited with what points they do have as ever.

If they weren't on an equivalent level, there would be more wizards, and less sorcerors. But all the highest lvl casters right now are Sorcs. Skills and such are great for RP, but for someone who wants to dungeon, a sorceror with more spells will be more effective, even more considering that once you know your way around, there is only a couple spells you really need to be effective in dungeons.

Mayvind

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Re: Feat progression and rebalancing
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2016, 10:29:59 PM »
I can build bigger and better wizard then all u nubs. (Sorry can't help it)

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Re: Feat progression and rebalancing
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2016, 10:32:33 PM »
I can build bigger and better wizard then all u nubs. (Sorry can't help it)

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Indigocell

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Re: Feat progression and rebalancing
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2016, 03:40:46 AM »
Wizards are not the only ones that benefit from the ability to run dungeons over and over again. Assuming they are not soloing, that means they are running it with other classes as well. Doesn't everyone have that advantage in NWN?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 03:43:24 AM by Indigocell »

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Re: Feat progression and rebalancing
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2016, 04:04:13 AM »
Plus, so even of the recent changes to dungeons have made it harder to ninja loot; I think overall these changes are very good, but it does advantage sorcerers. There are some high level dungeons where a Sorcerer can solo the boss and get the loot, but for Wizards it's a two man job. (I won't say where but if a Dev wants me to discuss this strategy in PMs, I'd be happy to.)
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Mayvind

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Re: Feat progression and rebalancing
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2016, 11:42:36 AM »
Plus, so even of the recent changes to dungeons have made it harder to ninja loot; I think overall these changes are very good, but it does advantage sorcerers. There are some high level dungeons where a Sorcerer can solo the boss and get the loot, but for Wizards it's a two man job. (I won't say where but if a Dev wants me to discuss this strategy in PMs, I'd be happy to.)

Are you talking about Sithicus/Veidrava last boss ? .. give me back Gorham Soultaker level 20 wiz he can solo the last boss too ! Also my Druid Can solo the last boss.. problem is that he cannot open those chests unless they lower the ridiculas high STR to force open those chests ... which i mentioned it before in another post. Also Ninja looting is still easy specially Wizard class, 56 DC in lockpick ? Only Wiz and Sorc can ever do that but Wiz even better then Sorc cause have lots of skills points to waste here ... point me to a Pure Fighter/Rogue Class whom has 36 in lockpicking skills ? I played Sorc and Wiz both level 20 and i prefere Wizard due to versatile spells. Of course Sorc life is easier now with relevel stone you can change yours spells after server reset easy peesy. no need to wait till level up. I can go on but the point of  this thread is not whom out perform whom. Is to discuss Wizard Feat Progression and I don't think is Too much .... is fine as it is (but losing 1 or 2 feats not gonna effect it much anyway) better focus on Fighter Class. I bet you're Surprised and though iam for nerfing progession feats for the Wizard ? I rather they nerf Time Stop Durations.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 12:02:53 PM by Mayvind »

Syl

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Re: Feat progression and rebalancing
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2016, 12:48:41 PM »
Plus, so even of the recent changes to dungeons have made it harder to ninja loot; I think overall these changes are very good, but it does advantage sorcerers. There are some high level dungeons where a Sorcerer can solo the boss and get the loot, but for Wizards it's a two man job. (I won't say where but if a Dev wants me to discuss this strategy in PMs, I'd be happy to.)

Are you talking about Sithicus/Veidrava last boss ? .. give me back Gorham Soultaker level 20 wiz he can solo the last boss too ! Also my Druid Can solo the last boss.. problem is that he cannot open those chests unless they lower the ridiculas high STR to force open those chests ... which i mentioned it before in another post. Also Ninja looting is still easy specially Wizard class, 56 DC in lockpick ? Only Wiz and Sorc can ever do that but Wiz even better then Sorc cause have lots of skills points to waste here ... point me to a Pure Fighter/Rogue Class whom has 36 in lockpicking skills ? I played Sorc and Wiz both level 20 and i prefere Wizard due to versatile spells. Of course Sorc life is easier now with relevel stone you can change yours spells after server reset easy peesy. no need to wait till level up. I can go on but the point of  this thread is not whom out perform whom. Is to discuss Wizard Feat Progression and I don't think is Too much .... is fine as it is (but losing 1 or 2 feats not gonna effect it much anyway) better focus on Fighter Class. I bet you're Surprised and though iam for nerfing progession feats for the Wizard ? I rather they nerf Time Stop Durations.

[cough cough] Just so you are aware.. My level 17 PURE Rogue  Monica O'Sullivan HAS open lock in the 30s alone with only 1 piece of gear on so.. Nooo it is not just sorcs and wizards that can get that high.

Edit: between 29-33 unbuffed and only wearing the belt. So it is not hard to get that high. she would be 2 points higher but I didn't take those backgrounds.

Wizards and sorcs might be able to get it sooner due to having the knock spell.  and who knows. they might even have rings of open lock. Darkpowers know I haven't even seen one but I've heard they exist. I think only once or twice did my rogue use Picks in Sithicus but that was due to low rolls and being just 1 point shy. and she has pretty basic gear. 2 knives. +1 gloves and +1 belt.

But I like the fact I have to use picks.. I've been giving away picks because she hasn't had a need for them since level 9

hardly anyone just ever takes her to Sithicus since as pointed out it is easy for a caster to get enough skill and pick the locks.

I personally wish locks DC 50 and above MUST require rogue levels to pick the lock.

And the high DC for breaking the lock is probably because it isn't just a pad lock to bust open, it could be some complicated mechanisim or oddly designed to slow people down or be difficult to break thus meaning you best find someone to pick the lock if you don't want to break any items in the chest
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 01:02:04 PM by Syl »

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APorg

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Re: Feat progression and rebalancing
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2016, 01:03:47 PM »
Knock doesn't really give casters an edge, it just compensates them mostly for having to buy OL cross class; a level 20 wizard with 11 ranks of OL has effectively 21 with Knock, versus 23 for the Rogue.

It's also a poor example because Knock is in fact nerfed; unnerfed Knock doesn't require a caster to invest in OL.
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Re: Feat progression and rebalancing
« Reply #40 on: October 04, 2016, 03:33:50 PM »
Quote
I mean, I've seen Natalie nuke all kinds of dungeons with ease. My wizard is stuck doing buffs because she's got all the buffs people need.

These are two drastically opposing approaches to dungeoneering in which the differences can be easily mitigated by simply choosing the former or latter. A wizard is more than capable of "nuking" dungeons as a sorcerer. However, a sorcerer is less capable of buffing unless that sorcerer chooses to focus all of their spells in buffing others. THAT is an advantage a wizard has over a sorcerer. Sure... my sorcerer can nuke certain dungeons. Try and watch my sorcerer with limited spell variety try to convince a group of shields and swords to run into Perfidus, Sithicus, or even some of the dungeons in Hazlan. There is a clear roleplay dynamic that meshes intricately with the mechanical dynamics of this server.

However, this is not to say that I am in favor of detracting from the wizard class. Wizards DO most often tend to be the glue that holds a party together while traveling through dangerous places. My opinion is to leave the feat system alone as there are few advantages of taking greater spell focuses in four schools regardless.
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Re: Feat progression and rebalancing
« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2016, 12:57:37 AM »
Its long been my main balance beef with the PotM set up. The extra feats, they are just entirely unnecessary in my opinion. Across the board. The system has its heart in the right place but the net result is undesirable and throws the balance off more than a little and greatly affects other aspects of gameplay.

Dropping the entire extra feat system might not be considered I realize, as much as I think it would help, but what is available on the potm bonus feat levels might be something that could be addressed. I believe that certainly no metamagic feat should be available on those potm bonus feat selection lists at all. A wizard already has 3 extra feats to select those feats in their base progression, in addition to the base feat every 3 character levels. It would be completely okay to me if only the non combat related feats such as willbreaker and skill focus (perform) comprise the list and eliminate the rest. But at the very least if we are going to give classes with built in class bonus feats lists such as wizards and fighters even more feats than by extension the rogue class should also get them to preserve their progression chart advantage(s) as compared to their peer base classes.

Other than the excessive feat progression, the main overkill feature of the server's implementation of D&D rules is that the saving throws and DCs are extremely high.  We could start by completely getting rid of the bonuses accrued from spellcraft, which might be about the weirdest thing bioware implemented. The spellcraft skill already has video gamey mechanical use by identifying spell effects so it would never be useless. We could further collectively lower the arms race by eliminating excessive saving throw related gear, or restricting it to just the +1 items that drop randomly in low level areas. +2s could be a fantastically useful find and rare, and +3s and beyond basically unheard of, at least not without penalties to make it barely worth it. The three saving throw feats should also not appear on potm bonus feat levels, so as to make that choice a harder one. And make spell focus something that a spell caster has to truly choose one or maybe two schools of magic to specialize in and also its worth noting that we have the +2 (3.0) version of spell focus and it does not seem hard to change it to just +1 as it is in the revision.

I think the server would be better for it, as much as it would shake up the status quo.  Just as diamonds making raise dead a very rare occurrence, and clerics losing a spell slot per level were also not perceived as ubiquitous improvements, so too could this prove to be a move in the right direction of giving real weight to build decisions and contribute to a magic-requires-great-sacrifice type of feel to the gameplay. It would not hurt anything if a DC 17 spike growth worked on more opponents, so that the level 5 druid feels like his magic has chance to work. As we have it now, anything that allows a saving throw is nearly without utility even at the levels you first obtain them and they do not retain any utility at all as you progress. The saving throw modifiers that these spells have to overcome are regularly in the teens or more. I just feel with some smart thinking we can come to a good compromise and improve several areas of gameplay all at once. They are more than a little bit connected.

Completely unrelated to this topic but the recent lore changes gave me pipe dreams of implementing the various knowledge skills, that could be used to further spread out skill point distribution and create specialists in areas of lore. An undead hunter would want Knowledge (Undead) but would find their self at a loss to identify what type of ooze they were facing, whereas a Knowledge (Dungeoneering) specialist would have the opposite area of expertise. A further way to differentiate characters in both a story and mechanical way. But again, off topic.


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Re: Feat progression and rebalancing
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2016, 06:52:05 AM »
We should make fighter class great again with special feats for fighter.
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Re: Feat progression and rebalancing
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2016, 09:03:34 AM »
We should make fighter class great again with special feats for fighter.

I strongly agree. Fighter just doesn't have any particular strengths to differentiate it at higher levels. Why would anyone ever go pure Fighter other than for RP reasons? This is especially telling now that pure Barbarian and pure Ranger have such strong high level strengths.

From a build perspective, Fighter at the moment is mostly just an utility class, dipped into for Weapon Specialization or on the way to Weapon Master. It really needs a little more choice.
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Re: Feat progression and rebalancing
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2016, 11:48:33 AM »
I am actually content with where fighter is at, for myself. There is indeed no reason to go pure fighter if you use only one weapon ever, but that is what WM is for. Fighter's bonus feats allows a pure fighter to be competent at using multiple weapons like a warhammer for dealing with skeletons, longbow for ranged and longsword for general use, and otherwise, fighter is there for utility to get some extra feats and weapon specialization, as you said. I really don't see anything wrong with that, I think it gives the class more character than having special feats, which would be tricky to balance and a lot of work.

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Re: Feat progression and rebalancing
« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2016, 12:48:14 PM »
I am actually content with where fighter is at, for myself. There is indeed no reason to go pure fighter if you use only one weapon ever, but that is what WM is for. Fighter's bonus feats allows a pure fighter to be competent at using multiple weapons like a warhammer for dealing with skeletons, longbow for ranged and longsword for general use, and otherwise, fighter is there for utility to get some extra feats and weapon specialization, as you said. I really don't see anything wrong with that, I think it gives the class more character than having special feats, which would be tricky to balance and a lot of work.

I have a few pure fighters in the making but they are baby levels. The feats fighters receive As Night of Reod mentioned allow the fighter to be skilled in many weapons. what it can also allow you to do is make yourself difficult for a mage to kill if you do it right. Dwarven fighters with Spellcraft and decent stats can become very good mage killers being able to shrug of the spells and basically gain +5 resistance to every effect save negative and divine and positive.  Example if done right you could have a level 14-15 fighter have 15/- resist to Acid, fire, electric, and cold as well as have a will and reflex save around 10 excluding and possible saves vs spells if they have a good Spellcraft. this build being human with a minimum of 14 wisdom and dex

now I will say it would be nice if they had more. class specific feats for being pure fighters. like maybe get greater weapon focus at 13 and greater specialization at 16. or if we had shield bash and they could get imp shield bash. but this would require custom haks to be made and added in.

fighters are the next most versitial class if you ask me, they have good good HP, nice BAB, alright saves, and feats like it they are going out of style.

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Re: Feat progression and rebalancing
« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2016, 10:49:15 PM »
I think overwhelming critical at the later fighter levels (16+) would be a good incentive.

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Re: Feat progression and rebalancing
« Reply #47 on: October 10, 2016, 11:16:06 PM »
I think you people seriously underestimate how many extra feats fighters get, and how easily they can distinguish themselves from other fighter types and hybrid builds. Fighters are more than fine how they are at current, but a little extra love never hurts I suppose.

As an afterthought, maybe something more flavor oriented feat-wise for fighters. Maybe something else aside Willbreaker that increases antagonize, or similar feats like this. Alternatively, adding Overwhelming Critical sounds like a cool idea, and perhaps one other similar feat. But add too much, and you just end up breaking fighters easily enough I think. Kind of off topic, though.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2016, 11:23:39 PM by Sword »
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Re: Feat progression and rebalancing
« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2016, 09:24:01 AM »
With as many feats as you get on fighters you can reasonably get all the resist energy feats assuming you don't want to just bank on fire/acid/cold. That's 5 damage reduction for elements.

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Re: Feat progression and rebalancing
« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2016, 06:57:42 PM »
Overwhelming Critical would be pretty op, and it'd probably make Fighters outshine Weapon Masters.
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