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Author Topic: Timestop, and how it works on PotM  (Read 16149 times)

Syl

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Re: Timestop, and how it works on PotM
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2016, 12:45:40 PM »
Well, as usual I side with the 3.5 rules (with minor exceptions), cause that's the baseline I like in general. If we see that it is somehow unbalancing, then we can change it from the baseline.

But I agree with Mika on the PvP part. Many other classes have (near to) instant kill capabilities (especially against mages in a surprise attack). So changing the spell on the premise of taking away mages' instant kill capabilities does not seem reasonable to me.

Noone is really taking away any mage capability of insta killing, there are many ways for a mage to insta kill,  each class has their weakness with fighters it's reflex and will saves, rogues will and fort ( low disc), mages reflex and fort ( low disc). a fighter or rogue just has to be able to knock the mage down, but a fighter can knock either a mage or rogue down. it's just how they work. Rogues have sneak attack and traps to use against people ( but many complain about em and I wont get into that) mages have spells out the Shazooooo at their disposal if they are a wizard and have all them or druid or cleric. Sorcs and bards a bit limited. And they are able to walk around with buffs on without anyone knowing. like TS or greater stoneskin if they have premonition on well that fight will take a long time.  Each class has the ability to quick kill or cheap kill. so no one is really taking away any instakill capability.

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Re: Timestop, and how it works on PotM
« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2016, 12:52:41 PM »
Abuse - Haven't really ever seen it. Anyone I've seen able to use this spell is pretty respectful about it. Not to say this couldn't happen, but if one of the members of the grand order of timestoppers went crazy, the other members of this sacred guild would probably nuke them (that's right Natalie, I'm always warching...!)

:O

Ugh. You just made me realize I said 'warching'. I am leaving it misspelled, as I feel it adds character to my post.  :ohnoes:

Mayvind

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Re: Timestop, and how it works on PotM
« Reply #52 on: July 22, 2016, 01:21:21 PM »
Since everyone love to repeat i do the same. Time Stop duration is the problem ORIGINAL NwN was 9 seconds but around 10 years ago people at this very server including me complained that it was too short it was changed to 1d4 +1 round per cast. A round is 6 seconds max time on time stop is 30 seconds that if you are hasted you can release 7 or 8 Greater Missile Storm spells. Also you can recast it immediately lowest duration is 12 seconds to 30 seconds a level 20 sorcerer can probably cast it 5 to 6 times.

Not suggesting any radical changes just that duration of the spell need to be look at. Seriously if you think stopping everyone on the screen for 30 seconds while you can rain all yours spells on anyone and repeat several times is not too over powerful then there no convincing you. And saying there no abusing problem, well because mostly no one survived the first time stop for the caster to cast a second one in the first place and it is not a rule breaking to spam the spells in the first place as abusing it has no consequences in the first place.

Telkar

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Re: Timestop, and how it works on PotM
« Reply #53 on: July 22, 2016, 01:28:34 PM »
Well, as usual I side with the 3.5 rules (with minor exceptions), cause that's the baseline I like in general. If we see that it is somehow unbalancing, then we can change it from the baseline.

But I agree with Mika on the PvP part. Many other classes have (near to) instant kill capabilities (especially against mages in a surprise attack). So changing the spell on the premise of taking away mages' instant kill capabilities does not seem reasonable to me.

Noone is really taking away any mage capability of insta killing, there are many ways for a mage to insta kill,  each class has their weakness with fighters it's reflex and will saves, rogues will and fort ( low disc), mages reflex and fort ( low disc). a fighter or rogue just has to be able to knock the mage down, but a fighter can knock either a mage or rogue down. it's just how they work. Rogues have sneak attack and traps to use against people ( but many complain about em and I wont get into that) mages have spells out the Shazooooo at their disposal if they are a wizard and have all them or druid or cleric. Sorcs and bards a bit limited. And they are able to walk around with buffs on without anyone knowing. like TS or greater stoneskin if they have premonition on well that fight will take a long time.  Each class has the ability to quick kill or cheap kill. so no one is really taking away any instakill capability.

You're right, but I guess I was thinking of instant killing the ultimate mage defender, for which I know no other method in the mage's toolbox. Maybe my knowledge of spell creativity is just limited. ;)

Bad_Bud

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Re: Timestop, and how it works on PotM
« Reply #54 on: July 22, 2016, 07:40:59 PM »
1) You cannot target any creature under the effect. I don't know of any way to accomplish this aside from Greater Sanctuary, but then you can't see your targets either.

2) Effects that linger beyond the duration of Timestop affect the target after Timestop ends. You should in theory be able to lay a field of grease and acid clouds under someone's feet during Timestop, but if the target is blanket immune to all ill effects (such as a movement speed slow), will they be standing in a grease without a movement speed slow? That may not be the best example, but the point is it's a nuanced problem, and getting it to work properly in every case would require a lot of trial and error.

3) AI would not understand the limitations. Some monsters get to use Timestop, and all of their uses involve attacking or casting offensive spells. AI wouldn't understand the concept of Timestop and using it only to buff, bring summons, or cast persistent AOE.

I'm not trying to say it's not possible to make Timestop work like this, because I think it is possible, but up to this point I've never been motivated enough to put in the amount of work required to make it happen, especially since the suggestion to change it was never my idea (not that I disagree with the suggestion at all)!

Until someone is motivated enough to work through the problem to try to make it happen, I think Timestop should last for 9 seconds as is, not 1d4 + 1 rounds. It doesn't rule out the possibility of a good Timestop later, and in the mean time averts some of the disaster.

APorg

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Re: Timestop, and how it works on PotM
« Reply #55 on: July 22, 2016, 09:22:10 PM »
Would it be possible to hang a script "hook" inside a Timestop spell?

e.g. have a boolean variable on each character, bIsCastingTimeStop, that's set to False by default.

When a character successfully casts TimeStop, that variable is set to True.

Then, each spell that you want to disable in TimeStop checks for this flag; if the flag is True, the spell casting fails with a message, e.g. "Can't cast this spell during TimeStop".

Once TimeStop ends, you reset the variable to False.

This does mean altering a lot of spells, but it's just a boolean check...
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Bad_Bud

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Re: Timestop, and how it works on PotM
« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2016, 10:47:13 PM »
Sounds like a massive pain, especially if you change your mind later.

APorg

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Re: Timestop, and how it works on PotM
« Reply #57 on: July 22, 2016, 11:19:51 PM »
Sounds like a massive pain, especially if you change your mind later.

Change your mind in what sense? You don't get to change your mind in the current version either, once you've cast Time Stop, it's cast... the issue is that Time Stop isn't limited as it should be, so this flag limits spell-casting during Time Stop.

I can see three parts of the work to be done for my idea to be feasible:

1. Changing all the spells to check this variable would best be done by writing a global function and inserting that global function in each spell to be restricted, e.g. IsTimeStopRestricted();

then each spell script would be altered thus:

if (IsTimeStopRestricted()); //is True -> restrict spells

  {display message saying "You can't cast this spell during Time Stop!"}

else. //is False -> don't restrict spell

  {leave spell script to run as usual}

endif.


2. Knowing when to set the boolean value bIsCastingTimeStop on the character is, I think, easy: you put the hook inside the Time Stop spell script at the appropriate place, set bIsCastingTimeStop = True; ... I will try to check the spell script, though.

3. The biggest pain I can see is then clearing the bIsCastingTimeStop  variable. (Cuz obviously you want to reset it to False, otherwise, the Mage is stuck unable to cast Time Stop-restricted spells even after Time Stop has ended.) I don't know where you can hang that exit condition -- if you can set it to reset at the end of the Time Stop countdown, or if you need to resort to more complicated coding. That indeed might be the issue that breaks my idea.
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NWN_lovableweremink

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Re: Timestop, and how it works on PotM
« Reply #58 on: July 23, 2016, 12:13:30 AM »
I'm guessing Bud was talking about if you change your mind about the changes later, not during casting.

A simpler way would be to make the changes to x0_spells, rather than each individual spell script- however I don't agree that the mentioned changes would be good.

Nemesis 24

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Re: Timestop, and how it works on PotM
« Reply #59 on: July 23, 2016, 02:56:05 AM »
It's worth considering that a high UMD caster (who doesn't need a concentration check) casting this off a scroll would worry about casting other spells.  They'd just sneak attack the helpless victim into oblivion.  So blocking spells is only part of the situation.

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Re: Timestop, and how it works on PotM
« Reply #60 on: July 26, 2016, 02:55:29 AM »
[a wild Mika appears...!]

...

PvP - Is this a win button for PvP? Absolutely! You know what else is? Haste/True Strike/Knockdown Spam! In the three+ years I've been here, I've seen PvP on a large number of occasions where a character much lower than the Mage in question completely obliterates them with this method. Until a Mage reaches timestop level, they're actually pretty easily to take down. This is part of the concept of the class, but I do feel like if you keep a Mage alive long enough to get level 9 spells, it's justified to have something of this strength. Save for a few, there aren't a lot of other fantastic level 9 spells when you compare them to level 8 arcane spells or level 9 divine spells (I could write 37 more paragraphs on that, but I'll stop).


Hate/Truestrike/Knockdown Spam! is only an instant win in a 1 on 1 match, there could be plenty of situations where the numbers are not 1 on 1, in which case it really isn't an instant win at all, at best it's a "im going to take one of you down even if it kills me". The problem with timestop is that is absolutely is an instant win button, all you have to do is quick slot it and the entire area is stopped, the first slightest hint of trouble or hostility anyone can hit it within a second or two and it's all over at that point. Apart from the issues already talked about my own personal problem with timestop is that it stops all roleplay totally for everyone except the character who cast it, you might work out what is going on yourself but in character you have to totally disregard it all and I think in a game like this it's utterly counter intuitive for everyone on the receiving end of it.

I play wizards and sorcerers a lot, and I think its totally overpowered and ide rather just see it disabled.

LeviShultz

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Re: Timestop, and how it works on PotM
« Reply #61 on: August 02, 2016, 01:49:57 AM »
This might be harder to script, but what about having to make a concentration check while making actions during time stop. Attacking, Casting, using items, basically everything except for moving incurs a concentration check that if failed ends the spell. Consecutive actions apply a temporary stacking debuff to your concentration much like the how stealth debuffs work for opening locks/chests/doors/picking up items. Different actions could have different penalties   

You'd still be able to use it offensively, but at risk. UMD classes are a bit less likely to max concentration as a skill compared to other casters and thus will have a more difficult time using it offensively. 

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Syl

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Re: Timestop, and how it works on PotM
« Reply #62 on: August 02, 2016, 07:51:06 AM »
Ive seen this debate before and in a pvp stand point time stop is very cheap combined with other spells. However this server makes its difficult to acquire let alone allow a mage to easily reach ninth lvl spells. Also be mindful though th dm team may or may not have ir set up there are a few items and skills you can easily utilize  yo screw with casters. I once had to test for Western Heartlands various vuilds and item use to balance casters vs classes. Ironically this game magic item and casting off balance leaves for many exploits. Some one like Beatrice or Mariska can easily be felled even with the time stop spell it just depends how you utilize your class skills and item accessibility. Keen example is there are items to cast silence and silence here is pretty aweful for a mage. There are also several physical debilitating poisons and items that can nerf a wizard easily. For example Ranger HIPS vs time stop im hidde  less they waste aoes i fire arrows with poison vs paralysis a fort save (high) i paralyze wizard, then fire arrows with int draining, cross class UMD and use mind fog follow by Mind Enfeeblement (sp?) I can technically make a wizard drop 16 to 22 in intellogence stat rendering what ever memorized spells useless and empty. Leaving th3m.maybe lv 1 -3 spells.

Err so i would have to once in my time with vs Time Stop say no not for this server given how difficult it is even to get to have that spell let alone reach for lv9 spells. I wont give a class to vs mage time stop but i can say there are ways to make those mages regret using it. Just got to be smart about it. In game of course not ooc.

WHile I hate to say it but those "items" that have silence are a REALLY low level silence spell which makes them not only a easy save, but also easy to resist. and if the caster you're facing has timestop, chances are they have spell mantle or greater spell mantle as well as SR. so you're rather boned in any case when it comes to scrolls, weapons with silence, or silence items or any item that casts magic since they are generally around the base level of when you get them as a caster. and poison arrows/bolts don't generally have a high DC not even most poisons are high DC I have yet to find a poison DC EXCLUDING the spiders themselves bitting you. reach a DC 20. most poisons you can find are often DC 16-18. and that is the vials hells that makes no sense since when the spiders bite you it's like a DC 22-26 fort save!

The ranger HIPS will also only work outside it will not work indoors. but  I'll assume the fight is outside.

and while I wanna say Levi's idea is a good one I'm not one for it. Getting your UMD high enough to use timestop which is already near impossible to find. forcing the user to make a concentration check sorta ruins it, I'm still up for suggestion Timestop or some 9th circle spells have a cool down timer like Shadow Dancers and Ranger's HIPS Or if not, start having the higher level circles 7-9+ Start to push the exhaustion threshold. since casting many high level spells I feel would be exhausting!! I'm not saying like instant " you're now exhausted" But each cast adds more and more. 7th circle giving less of a punishment and 9th giving the most so those that say. Yes might need to spam time stop and save a group, but they than grow exhausted and need a moment to calm and clear their mind. it would be like, lets say your average wizard has a 12 con, that is what? 22 threshold? I know there is already casting exhaustion but it A: doesn't tick often enough and B: isn't really much. I'm sure another wizard or sorc could help me out but lets use the trolls. best example I can think of. you buff the party, they attack and you all go to town, how fast/high did your exhaustion get? I can say as a fighter, I've only ever bee exhausted during a fight once MAYBE twice, but that was due to the fight being dragged out as more kept coming. but meh what's exhaustion to a fighter of AC when it only effects AB. But lets focus on the caster.

edit: And by add to the exhaustion I mean [ casts spell] and you right there get 3-4 exhaustion
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 08:33:10 AM by Syl »

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Re: Timestop, and how it works on PotM
« Reply #63 on: December 29, 2019, 05:57:57 PM »
[Dusts off topic]

We will soon be implementing one more change to Time Stop, since we've had some time to evaluate its current effectiveness. During Time Stop, the caster will not be able to cast hostile spells at all. The caster will be able to cast buffs and summons though or use that time to escape.

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Re: Timestop, and how it works on PotM
« Reply #64 on: December 29, 2019, 06:26:24 PM »
Does planar binding count as offensive spell or a summoning spell?

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Re: Timestop, and how it works on PotM
« Reply #65 on: December 29, 2019, 06:44:09 PM »
Does planar binding count as offensive spell or a summoning spell?

If used on an outsider it'd be considered a hostile spell, otherwise a summon. The same will apply to healing spells cast on undead (or in reverse, inflict spells cast on undead).

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Re: Timestop, and how it works on PotM
« Reply #66 on: December 29, 2019, 06:50:05 PM »
Does planar binding count as offensive spell or a summoning spell?

If used on an outsider it'd be considered a hostile spell, otherwise a summon. The same will apply to healing spells cast on undead (or in reverse, inflict spells cast on undead).

What about summons that can employ hostile spells? Like the archon's lightning bolt?
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Re: Timestop, and how it works on PotM
« Reply #67 on: December 29, 2019, 06:56:53 PM »
What about summons that can employ hostile spells? Like the archon's lightning bolt?

Those are fine. If they become an issue we can just delay the summons so they appear at the end of the Time Stop.

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Re: Timestop, and how it works on PotM
« Reply #68 on: December 29, 2019, 07:42:11 PM »
What about summons that can employ hostile spells? Like the archon's lightning bolt?

Those are fine. If they become an issue we can just delay the summons so they appear at the end of the Time Stop.
To clarify, is hostile spell anything that would break invisibility? I.E. No grease or cloud spells? What about if the cloud is aimed so enemies wouldn’t be in the aoe?
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Re: Timestop, and how it works on PotM
« Reply #69 on: December 29, 2019, 07:51:34 PM »
No hostile spells can be cast at all, regardless of where or who they target.

APorg

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Re: Timestop, and how it works on PotM
« Reply #70 on: December 29, 2019, 08:08:17 PM »
It basically means that AoE attack spells can't be "stacked" to act after a Time Stop expires, which was the one viable tactic left to use Time Stop in a directly offensive capacity on PotM.
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Re: Timestop, and how it works on PotM
« Reply #71 on: December 29, 2019, 08:08:37 PM »
Good change. I like it.
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Re: Timestop, and how it works on PotM
« Reply #72 on: December 29, 2019, 08:53:02 PM »
It’s a much needed change in the interests of balance.  I like it.

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Re: Timestop, and how it works on PotM
« Reply #73 on: December 29, 2019, 09:27:37 PM »
Heck yes, great change.

Ken14

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Re: Timestop, and how it works on PotM
« Reply #74 on: December 29, 2019, 11:43:35 PM »
I mostly play spellcasters, but yeah, I can see why that might be needed.

Though, I'm not usually subject to Timestops, but I recall that you can still see the Caster. Has this been changed?

And if not, is it possible to make it so that the caster can't be detected/seen while Time Stop is running, per the spell's official description?