Author Topic: Brainstorming about an item wear system  (Read 10253 times)

emptyanima

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Re: Brainstorming about an item wear system
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2016, 03:35:11 PM »
(Shameless plug)

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=40142.0

Sure, crafting can be lonely! I apologise for any poor wording on my part, I just wanted to know more about its implementation, is all.

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Re: Brainstorming about an item wear system
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2016, 03:41:52 PM »
Yeah for the tutorials, I'm on the IC side of the stuff... sorry to be again on a strong disagreement on your view since I'd rather to do it all in game and IC, but maybe I'm the wrong side.
Sure it's useful but it completely destroys the IC part of crafting, and makes it too dangerously close to MMOs...
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 03:45:39 PM by +Ciaran+ »
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emptyanima

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Re: Brainstorming about an item wear system
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2016, 03:55:40 PM »
Which is why I only cover the basics in the tutorials. The crafting system is very weird and confusing to the uninitiated, and it's really helped cut down on the number of tells I get asking questions, which is just as OOC.

In any case, I am getting off-topic. Back to item wear we go, discuss!

DrXavierTColtrane

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Re: Brainstorming about an item wear system
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2016, 03:57:38 PM »
I disagree that the tutorials "completely destroy" the IC part of crafting because PCs don't have to watch them.

Also, consider that once you know how to craft, all of your subsequent characters start with that knowledge regardless of whether they should ICly.

It's been a long time since I watched emptyanima's tutorials, but as I recall they don't reveal very much about recipes and such. They mostly help with the mechanics of crafting, no?

To me that's helping to understand game mechanics more than giving away spoilers. IRL fundamentals like what the tutorials show would be observable from watching anyone else do the work or from asking the person running the shop. Wouldn't a shopkeeper be willing to explain these sorts of basics to create customers for his goods?

ETA: Yes, this is off topic.
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Re: Brainstorming about an item wear system
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2016, 04:21:35 PM »
Yush, the tutorials only show a basic recipe and walk you through the steps on how the craft is done. Which can be rather helpful for those who have never used one of the more complicated crafts. Like alchemy where it requires 2 stages, 2 different tools and 2 different materials you need in addition to the monster bits.

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Re: Brainstorming about an item wear system
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2016, 06:15:43 PM »
Would enchanted items be exempt?  They're already a massive time sink and I think it would be a bit strange that something you need to work that hard for and literally sink part of yourself in to wouldn't simply decay in quality, even after a long period of time.

I think the idea is intriguing but I'm not entirely sure I find it super necessary or that it adds something to the entire quality of roleplay on the server.  It might make things somewhat more interesting for crafters themselves, admittedly.



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Re: Brainstorming about an item wear system
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2016, 08:18:50 PM »
Would enchanted items be exempt?  They're already a massive time sink and I think it would be a bit strange that something you need to work that hard for and literally sink part of yourself in to wouldn't simply decay in quality, even after a long period of time.

I agree.
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Re: Brainstorming about an item wear system
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2016, 10:40:42 PM »
I'm going to go with a big huge no to this, but I'm at work.  I'll explain why when I get home.

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Re: Brainstorming about an item wear system
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2016, 11:40:42 PM »
After some consideration and not looking at it how it would benefit me as a crafter I would have to say degradation on hit would be actually rubbish and even monthly maintenance wouldn't be any fun for anyone but the elite crafter class.

Now you could give smithing relevancy through blacksmith-only consumables that could give the keen effect or enchanting cloths/armor reinforcement. Things only blacksmiths could apply and it would last for a RL day or two but as it stands all this does is take away and punishes the player.

This would also suck really badly for rogues who have four different sets of armor for situational purposes.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 11:48:23 PM by PmYourTarrasques »

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Re: Brainstorming about an item wear system
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2016, 12:13:37 AM »
Now you could give smithing relevancy through blacksmith-only consumables that could give the keen effect or enchanting cloths/armor reinforcement. Things only blacksmiths could apply and it would last for a RL day or two but as it stands all this does is take away and punishes the player.

Ha, I spent a good day thinking about this topic before I decided to post anything, and when I finally came up with an idea I wanted to share, you beat me to it.

I really like PmYourTarrasques' idea here. We don't have masterwork crafting, but we have master crafters who've stacked up levels in these crafts and aren't gaining any extra talent at the craft, past a certain point. Giving (master?) crafters a way to sharpen / reinforce weapons / armour temporarily seems like a good way to bring crafter relevancy back when there's nobody to sell to, and master crafters something more than just the satisfaction of being at the top levels of a craft. Degradation is a fun idea as well, but I can already imagine the flurry of panicked "I need my armour fixed!" tells and crafters getting bullied into running around and helping people out. For the majority of people I think degradation would simply be more of an annoyance than an opportunity.

Temporary enhancements wouldn't be necessary to get everything out of your character (like fixing degraded armour would have to be, and all the micromanaging involved with keeping an eye on your item quality) but they'd be a good option for characters to have. I don't know what would be balanced, I'd say anything less than half as powerful than what enchanting currently gives: an extra +1 to an AC type, or a +1 AB. It wouldn't have to be powerful. I couldn't imagine adding further benefit to enchanted items, they're already fine as it is, I think it should only be considered for mundane items.

DrXavierTColtrane

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Re: Brainstorming about an item wear system
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2016, 12:28:10 AM »
I agree that enchanted items are already nerfed enough (by not being transferable) that they not also be perishable. Plus, enchantment seems like something that could make weapons immune to regular wear and tear.

But regarding crafted weapons and armor, provided the change is not made retroactive, one cannot argue that it is "taking away" from players. That is, when a PC buys the weapon or armor, its limitations are known...and this should affect the price one is willing to pay for it. If you don't want items that might perish, go get them the old-fashioned way (through a loot drop).

In contrast to enchanted gear, it is not realistic that mundane gear once bought never needs maintenance.

Regarding the hassle of repair, contrast it to spell buffing, which players must do constantly. Put on your armor, and it never needs washing or ironing. Equip your weapon, it never needs sharpening. But spellcasters must relearn and reapply spells every rest.

Finally, if there is too much hassle the frequency is easily tweakable.

Another thought that just occurred to me that would accomplish yet a third goal recently discussed is that of making death more meaningful. Instead of tying the damage to critical hits or severe misses, tie it to death (or reaching zero hit points).

When a character is brought to fewer than zero hit points, check to see whether their armor is impaired. When the character drops a weapon, check to see whether the weapon is likewise damaged.
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Re: Brainstorming about an item wear system
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2016, 12:28:28 AM »
A blacksmith could ...

Polish your armor for extra influence/CHA.

Sharpen your blade for the keen effect so you can stab your dueling rival in the face.

A leatherworker could...

Add enchanted temporary padding that increases ms/give the armor an enchanted coating of paint that increase hide

Work on your boots to make you go a bit faster to make that Mist camp to barovia run less tedious.

A (master) tailor could...

Make magical bags, with 20% being the pinnacle of the craft.

Specially fit clothes so that nobody else could wear it but it gains an extra influence point or two.

An enchanter could...

Enchant aforementioned bag for 40%, with 60% or 80% being the pinnacle of the craft.

Add runes to a shield or something that gives a temporary but potent effect. Perhaps a fear aura?

... And more!

These could give these profession more relevancy beyond mastering it for the sake of mastering it.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 12:41:24 AM by PmYourTarrasques »

LeviShultz

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Re: Brainstorming about an item wear system
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2016, 06:54:11 AM »
Perhaps the ability to add a corrosion resistant varnish that could reduce the chance of armour/equipment degradation due to oozes or rust monsters or maybe resist acid damage might.

A bit off topic, but I'd like to see:
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the mines near the Gnomish village in Hazlan be expanded into a dungeon of some sort. I think the persistent acid damage is a really cool effect and add more to the area would be interesting. Introduction a method to mitigate the caves effects along with an the a new dungeon would make a degree of sense.

 

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Re: Brainstorming about an item wear system
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2016, 11:38:03 AM »
As long as the item doesn't break after it's worn out, I'm fine with the proposed system. Will there be a way to check durability on an item, such as if you examine it and get a message saying "This item is is in dire need of repair", "This item is looking somewhat worn", "This item is in perfect condition", etc?

As well, I think there's a lot of positive ideas coming from the thread for new items that crafters could create to help enhance items. It would be great for woodworking, smithing, tailoring, and leatherworking to be able to make some sort of consumable they could create and sell. I think that would help work towards the goal of giving those crafts something special that people would seek them out for.

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Re: Brainstorming about an item wear system
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2016, 12:29:00 PM »
I totally agree with the fact the item should not be completely destroyed, even after x hits, but a chance to recover it being possible. A gradual lessening in its strength would avoid things being used even if utterly not useable...
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Re: Brainstorming about an item wear system
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2016, 07:28:21 AM »
Item wear really seems like a mechanic more in line with a survival game than a RP based game to me.
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DrXavierTColtrane

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Re: Brainstorming about an item wear system
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2016, 12:55:25 PM »
Item wear really seems like a mechanic more in line with a survival game than a RP based game to me.

Why so?

The mechanic doesn't seem qualitatively different from:

* Launchers using up ammunition

* Wands and staves exhausting charges

* Characters becoming exhausted

* Characters needing to eat

Etc., etc.

It demonstrably can increase RP through interaction between non-crafting and crafting characters. I can't think of a way in which it would lead to decreased RP.
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Re: Brainstorming about an item wear system
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2016, 01:25:45 PM »
I get a lot of RP from crafting, and this what keeps me doing it...
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NecropolisV

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Re: Brainstorming about an item wear system
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2016, 09:25:39 PM »
Firstly, I read every single post in this thread and I have to say I agree with some, and disagree with others (naturally being a flawed human being), But I'd like to take a bit from everyone, and such to make my own suggestion that I think would be pretty cool for a degradation system AND add to the benefits of having a skilled crafter around to actually work on things to make them better. My idea would require some revision of the current crafting system as it will require adding new DC's, and such but it would be quite wonderful to see in the long run once its finished.

For Degradation:

All items have a 100/100 durability (sort of like in diablo or such, or many other games), extensive travel, maybe a timer that triggers and deactivates everytime a character moves or stops moving, and for four every 30 min-full irl hour of travel durability is reduced by 1 to account for weather wear on equipment and overall travel wear

In combat, every 100 total points of damage recieved (debatable on the damage amount) reduces the durability by 1-2, maybe more, and upon receiving a critical hit 1-5 durability damage is received instantly (low amount as we all know we get crit more often than we would like here on potm), the damage total for durability damage would be nice as it would make sense for weaker creatures who do less damage to do less damage to your armor, and while powerful creatures like oozes and demons that hit you for a lot would do substantially more damage to your equipment, would define the difference between getting hit by a crypt skeleton with a rusted weapon for like 5 points as opposed to a demon with huge supernatural claws ripping into you and your armor for 30+ damage dealing likely a lot more damage to your armor than some weak skelly.

At about milestones of 50 and 25 your armor starts to show significant signs of wear and damage that incur penalties of -2 to AC and then -3, upon reaching 0 the armor is considered too damaged to be worn and is non-equippable (maybe all the straps are severed, leather is shredded in two, armor is dented to the point of being un-wearable).

As for weapons, 100/100 durability and every hit scored performs a DC check of 10 (or whatever you prefer) with no bonuses or penalties, and every time it fails the DC 1 point of durability damage is sustained, this would make sense as weapons make impacts a whole lot more than your armor receives them in most cases, and the durability check is only required upon scoring a successful hit or critical hit. Upon reaching durability of 50 a -1 damage and -1 AB penalty is recieved, and then at 25 further to -2/-2 (maybe even -3/-3 as its pretty worn and dulled at this point), and at 0 the weapon is as dull as a spoon and receives the no damage property until repaired.

However, enchanted, items no longer have to worry about durability as their strength is magical and should no longer suffer wear and tear, this would also increase the value of enchanted items beyond being the superior gear.

For Repair:

Depending on your armor and the corresponding crafter, they can use materials that were used for crafting your particular set of armor to repair the armor, maybe 1 ingot of the metal used in its making, and 1 bit of leather or such, wood, ect. to make a easy DC check to repair the armor, and I encourage that NO NPC's are made to be able to do this, as most crafting NPC's make mundane equipment and are not skilled enough to work on your beautiful exotic armor, with the exception of being able to repair non-crafted mundane equipment. This would encourage the value of finding people who have dedicated to the craft, as well as encourage PC's to pick up the trade at least mildly to be able to maintain their own equipment as many adventurers honestly would, or would at least have someone in their squad of friends who can do this for them when they need.

Repairing instantly boosts durability back up to 100/100.

This would all be done upon the proper crafting station that was used to make their particular type of armor/equipment

However for weapons, I'd suggest that for edged weapons there be made a "whetstone" item that can be used to increase durability of a weapon by 10 up to 75/100 durability as a whetstone can't fix everything, but in the hands of even the mildest experience can be used to at least somewhat maintain your weapon.

Additional For Crafters:

I definitely agree that -real- dedicated crafters should have some love in this system for their dedication, hard work, and experience in their crafting. As such I propose the following:

Upon crafting a piece of equipment initially there is a DC depending on the type of material and type of armor/equipment they are trying to make (DC depends on type of material, as materials for the more experienced will have a higher DC, and working on a suit of fullplate requires much more skill than a suit of chainmail), and with their full crafting capability can attempt to pass that check to determine whether an item is "masterwork" or not, masterwork items would receive 120/120 durability and have a minor boost to their stats depending on the item, maybe a +1 AB, or massive crit, small damage bonuses (maybe depending on the material used, like silver an extra +1d4 damage vs lycanthropes rather than just AB, or steel just receiving the next damage bonus level of their weapon, such as how longswords get 1d6 i think, its been a while idk, instead becoming 1d8, or 1d10's becoming 1d12 bonus, 1d4's becoming 1d6, ect. ect.) idk some type of minor bonus to reflect the item is indeed masterwork, and as such -only- those masterwork items can be enchanted, as it requires a weapon of master quality to enchant, making the need for a greatly skilled smith needed all the more to provide an item worthy of being enchanted, and yes I know this would result in a massive waste of materials for those trying to get masterwork to enchant- but, that is why you would want to find a person who has mastered their craft who can make the masterwork item to begin with.

As to reinforcements I don't think that is a very good idea, maybe a variety of "styles" a person can do upon crafting the item would be nice (serrated blade for wounding or massive crit for example).

This would indeed require a revision of enchanted items to take into account the masterwork bonuses so enchanting doesn't become null, but its only a small boost in power in return for greater challenge of receiving the items to begin with.

A minor suggestion to add to this, some variety in enchantments would be great to see as well! Maybe able to choose different damage types on enchantment (negative, fire, cold, positive, divine, acid, ect. ect.).

Anyways thats my two cents, not sure if my idea is desirable, but I think it would work quite well and satisfy all in the end, I think its worth pointing out that no matter what system is come up with the degradation system is going to be a hassle and annoyance no matter what, but that's realism for you, and it would be nice to see some realism in this particular fashion, even in a fantasy game.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 09:27:38 PM by NecropolisV »
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Re: Brainstorming about an item wear system
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2016, 10:29:38 PM »
I'm going to play the other side of the coin here and postulate a few ideas.

First of all, I want to know one rather important thing - how is this supposed to be enjoyable for the players?

Lets look at it.  You manage to get a group together, and you've got a couple of frontliners.  However, after a short stint, you have to stop.  Why?

-The front players gear has reached -1 or even -2, or broken, if we're going off the above suggestion.  This means that the weapons no longer penetrate Damage Reduction or cannot damage or protect effectively.  They must turn around, the dungeon immediately must stop, and everyone misses out, because they no longer have front line fighters who can contribute.  If they choose not to, they will soon be in a similar position (or worse) when they start getting struck themselves.

-They then go to get the gear repaired.  This means three options take place.  First, there is someone in the party who 'can' do it.  But they need to get the materials.  They then then need to go to a place where the repair can happen.  They can then ask for an amount of gold for the gear to be fixed.  Second, that person does not have that sort of gold.  Low levels in particular are not wealthy.  High levels aren't necessarily either, and thus nothing is done and the player misses out - but is unable to make gold because all their equipment is broken.  They have to beg players for what is probably an ooc loan.  Third option, and this is going to be the norm, there is no on in the party who can fix the gear.

-With no one in the party who can fix the equipment, what next?  Do the players either a) stand around and wait and hope that in character that someone is a crafter and they can ask for their help.  Or b) do they start spamming tells on the player list and hoping - while going incredibly ooc about it.  This isn't expanding RP opportunities, its -definitely- increasing tell spam for OOC help.  And here's the key thing about this, the players who are doing it don't have any choice.  They are literally unable to engage in any activity but RP, but they can't go looking for help because its just too dangerous to travel about when none of your equipment is working.   Spare sets?  Carrying spare sets of full plate is a bit of a laughable concept.  Imagine the rogues who do, as stated above, carrying extra gear, how much they'd need to spend.

-Now, imagine you are a blacksmith, and you are a crafter, and suddenly... three whole quarters of the server (maybe more!) needs you to be on, and repairing, and fixing things, all the time.  Not every now and then but all the time.  -ALL- the time.  You are going to be chained to your anvil, and its by people who don't 'want' your help but actually 'have' to have it.  They can't do anything unless they've got it.  So if that person gets annoyed and decides not to log in, and other people see the experience and decide that they'd rather do something other than be asked 'please come to Vallaki', 'please come to Port, etc' with their time, then three whole quarters of the server grinds to a complete halt.

At which point is any of this, -any- of it, fun and not actually a complete chore and a burden on everyone involved?  Close combat classes are horribly punished by this concept, low level all the way to high, and you are effectively making sure that for enormous chunks of time they cannot do anything at all in game except stand around shouting out for a repair.  At no point should a characters entire playability rely on someone else, and to the degree you are talking about.  Yes, an archer needs to craft arrows, but they can craft - or buy - a thousand of them at a time.  You cannot carry three sets of full plate - you can't even generally carry two.  Every single dungeon would be a 'low ammunition' scenario and there isn't much you can do about that.  An archer can also buy plain old mundane arrows from a store.  If you even remove NPC's who can do this (and I don't even think they are a good idea, to be honest, as an alternative) you are taking away any possible alternative except to struggle along on shop bought gear all the time which is probably not feasible in the first place - especially at low levels - for terms of both effectiveness and cost.

I like money sinks - tend to love them in fact - and would like to see crafters have a bit more to do that doesn't make them overpowered or skew the balance of things.  But a forced punishment method isn't my idea of doing that at all.

EDIT - Also, I disagree on realism.  I've said it many times, if you start shoving realism into NWN (Or DnD at all for that matter) you are going to have a rather bad time.  Realism is just another name for tedious.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 11:14:08 PM by Nemesis 24 »

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Re: Brainstorming about an item wear system
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2016, 10:53:39 PM »
An item being worn out wouldn't be a common occurrence. It might even take as long as a month even if the item is in continuous, daily use and several times longer if it's only used rarely. Therefore, new characters and characters during the NCE would not face item degradation at all.

Some of the proposed ideas in here would not last anywhere near as long as Exo has suggested. I think that a degradation transition that lasts a shorter time than a month is just going to annoy people.

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Re: Brainstorming about an item wear system
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2016, 11:11:41 PM »
+1

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Re: Brainstorming about an item wear system
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2016, 11:12:52 PM »
why i liked my idea, having 100 points of durability and only losing 1 point after every 100 damage means you have 10,000 damage sustainable before your equipment is broken, 5,000 before it really needs to be repaired, and i dont think i've ever taken 5,000 damage in one adventure o.o, and if thats still too little, bump up the damage needed before you take that 1 durability point damage
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NecropolisV

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Re: Brainstorming about an item wear system
« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2016, 11:13:50 PM »
maybe make it 1000 damage instead of 100? that would make it last -signifigantly- longer
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Re: Brainstorming about an item wear system
« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2016, 11:33:09 PM »
Im rather torn on the idea, while i want more love for the other craft skills that fall short of being constantly in demand. The idea of having to monitor item durability reminds me more of a MMO like style, where we become more concerned about mechanics and the like.

It feels like a step away from rp, and more towards a mmo mentality where you focus more on gear, builds and optimization rather then role play.