Brainstorming about an item wear system

[Exordium]

Hello folks. Recently, I've liked to muse about a system relating to the wearing/degradation of items. At this stage I'd be curious to hear some wider feedback (and, possibly, further ideas) regarding such a hypothetical system.

Essentially, I've thought about a system that aims to be non-intrusive and to promote interaction with the various crafting professionals. When an item wears out, it wont be rendered unusable; Instead it might gain a minor negative effect, such as -1 AB or -1 AC. This would be fixable by a crafter for either a fixed fee, or a fee that scales with the item value.

An item being worn out wouldn't be a common occurrence. It might even take as long as a month even if the item is in continuous, daily use and several times longer if it's only used rarely. Therefore, new characters and characters during the NCE would not face item degradation at all.

The primary goal would be to offer wood, leather and metal crafters an occasional, but continuous job to fill.

What I described above are my own personal ideas on the subject and no system like this is currently in the works, but I'd love to hear some feedback and alternate ideas regarding this! Questions such as if a NPC could offer the service at a greater price than PCs and so are completely open to me.

[DM Tarokka]

The primary goal would be to offer wood, leather and metal crafters an occasional, but continuous job to fill.

What I described above are my own personal ideas on the subject and no system like this is currently in the works, but I'd love to hear some feedback and alternate ideas regarding this! Questions such as if a NPC could offer the service at a greater price than PCs and so are completely open to me.

As a crafter I realise some items, especially in those crafts you mentioned, are not in any way consummables, as for instance potions or varnishes, the exception being projectiles (arrows, bolts, bullets), while to make a proper new leather or metal or chitin armour, a weapon, a bow, a crafter needs just to hope for NCEs or someone rolling a new character. I'd welcome a system like this, in the limits, though, it won't cripple players too much whether no crafter to fix their gear being available.

[DrXavierTColtrane]

I think it's an excellent idea.

As you say, it should be non-intrusive and as simple as possible while achieving the desired functionality. Here's a possible implementation that would also incorporate skullmonkey's recent request about making the experience level of the crafter more important. (I have no idea how doable this is.)

1. Crafted weapons and armor receive a "quality" DC as some function of the level of the crafter making it.

2. If the wearer of the armor receives a critical hit, a check is made using the quality DC of the armor to see whether the armor is impaired or destroyed (sort of like puddings now).

3. If the wielder of a weapon rolls a natural 1 when attacking, a check is made using the quality DC of the weapon to see whether the weapon is impaired or destroyed.

This also allows easy tweaking if things get unbalanced one way or the other (just adjust the probability-of-impairment function).

[DrXavierTColtrane]

As far as new characters, I wouldn't worry too much about that.

New characters *should* have crappy gear. That's just realistic. But it's also much easier to replace than something a high-level has commissioned.

[Syl]

here is my question, when it is marked " destroyed" does the item actually vanish? because if that is the case I would have to argue a no for destroyed.. maybe more broken and just needs to be repaired since it is a armor and or a weapon which are meant for battle.

Or just have them slowly degrade with battle say 100 durability and they lose 1 point every hit delivered or received, depending on what it is. and a taking a critical hit maybe would remove 10 durability to the armor.

[DrXavierTColtrane]

That's another way the level of the crafter could affect it: the quality DC is what is degraded as the impairment.

Example: skullmonkey crafts armor that receives a quality DC of (I don't know) 20.

The armor takes a critical hit and fails the quality DC check. Its quality DC is 19 until it's repaired.

If it's not repaired and allowed to reach 0, it's permanently destroyed.

[DrXavierTColtrane]

As a crafter I realise some items, especially in those crafts you mentioned, are not in any way consummables, as for instance potions or varnishes, the exception being projectiles (arrows, bolts, bullets), while to make a proper new leather or metal or chitin armour, a weapon, a bow, a crafter needs just to hope for NCEs or someone rolling a new character. I'd welcome a system like this, in the limits, though, it won't cripple players too much whether no crafter to fix their gear being available.

The weapon shop and armor shop NPCs in Vallaki (and elsewhere) could also perform this function at a price reflective of the item's value, the amount of damage it has incurred, and the appraisal skill of the PC requesting the repair, whereas PC crafters could offer the service for whatever they like.

[booksarefun666]

This would actually fix a problem blacksmiths been having for awhile and that's not having a purpose after a month or two of toil once a newbie gets his suit of armor. Could there also be an excellent quality to the weapons that'd give it a minor buff like +2 to damage or maybe even keen for a short period like one-two RL days? This exclusive buff could be given by player smiths and give other players more incentive beyond gold price to actually find a player smith.

Keen is actually not a big deal either beyond PvP as most of the mobs are just undead anyway and crits don't matter too, too much. This could also open up smiths to be able to have consumables items blacksmiths can only apply such as a whetstone and more in the future.

[Skullmonkey]

All the ideas here seem good.

Although we should be careful, as critical hits are kind of common if you face multiple opponents with many attacks per round. The quality DC should be, of course, hard to fail if the armor has been made by a very good crafter...but like, very hard to fail. That would make a difference between a very good crafter and a crafter that can barely make the armor ( or whatever).

Of course though, if the DC is too hard to fail it would eliminate the purpose of this change, but i'm sure the developers know how to balance the system properly.
Another good idea to give some work to crafters is :

This would actually fix a problem blacksmiths been having for awhile and that's not having a purpose after a month or two of toil once a newbie gets his suit of armor. Could there also be an excellent quality to the weapons that'd give it a minor buff like +2 to damage or maybe even keen for a short period like one-two RL days? This exclusive buff could be given by player smiths and give other players more incentive beyond gold price to actually find a player smith.

Keen is actually not a big deal either beyond PvP as most of the mobs are just undead anyway and crits don't matter too, too much. This could also open up smiths to be able to have consumables items blacksmiths can only apply such as a whetstone and more in the future.

it would be nice to be able to "sharpen" the weapon, or "reinforce" the armor for a temporary boost (like he said, two days IRL sounds good).

[Skullmonkey]

That's another way the level of the crafter could affect it: the quality DC is what is degraded as the impairment.

Example: skullmonkey crafts armor that receives a quality DC of (I don't know) 20.

The armor takes a critical hit and fails the quality DC check. Its quality DC is 19 until it's repaired.

If it's not repaired and allowed to reach 0, it's permanently destroyed.

The armor should also progressively get some malus on the stats, to give an incentive for people to go and get it repaired.
We could make it give a higher armor penalty check at first, then we can decrease the DEX bonus to the armor class, and at last, when it's very badly damaged, make it give less protection.

But again, it should work so that it doesn't impair the gameplay experience of people too much.

[emptyanima]

My only concern is that if people know they are going to need a smith/leatherworker etc, they may not want to have to rely on others for their skills and take them up themselves. This is fine up to a point, but if most people become crafters then their skills will end up being less in demand, not more.

[Syl]

My only concern is that if people know they are going to need a smith/leatherworker etc, they may not want to have to rely on others for their skills and take them up themselves. This is fine up to a point, but if most people become crafters then their skills will end up being less in demand, not more.

Well good thing leather working is so bothersome to level lol tan the hide work the leather... boil the hide.. work the leather..

[DrXavierTColtrane]

You can't fight the laws of supply and demand, but look at it this way:

1) Crafting will be a better experience for all crafters.

2) Those who have devoted the most time to crafting will be rewarded more than those who just decide to take it up (because of crafting higher quality stuff).

You don't have to worry too much about supply outstripping demand worse than it already does for several reasons. To name one, limited raw materials.

[Skullmonkey]

My only concern is that if people know they are going to need a smith/leatherworker etc, they may not want to have to rely on others for their skills and take them up themselves. This is fine up to a point, but if most people become crafters then their skills will end up being less in demand, not more.

If you are a very high level crafter, with this system, you will have lots of requests rest assured. It only stimulates people to become master crafters in my opinion.

[booksarefun666]

My only concern is that if people know they are going to need a smith/leatherworker etc, they may not want to have to rely on others for their skills and take them up themselves. This is fine up to a point, but if most people become crafters then their skills will end up being less in demand, not more.

Most people need potions but herbalists still make some serious cash from customers.

Smithing is a bigger slog than herbalism is. As long as there is an NPC alternative (even though it's expensive) the people will sooner defer to the lazier option most of the time.

[DM Tarokka]

My only concern is that if people know they are going to need a smith/leatherworker etc, they may not want to have to rely on others for their skills and take them up themselves. This is fine up to a point, but if most people become crafters then their skills will end up being less in demand, not more.

Ever tried? You are an expert player and seem to know not a lot about the difficulty of crafting

[Jeebs]

The way I see it, it's likely that you'll need to be able to successfully craft the item you want to repair if you want to have a reasonable chance at success. So it wouldn't be practical to grind all those crafts for ages just to be able to avoid having to find/pay someone else to do it. You'd literally spend more money to build the skill than you would just paying someone who already has it.

Arelith had an item-wear system. I didn't care much for it but only because it seemed to degrade too fast and you didn't need any real skill to fix them, just a crafting station (from what I recall anyway). If it takes a month or two before you start needing to repair your items, that's more reasonable. My question is: how will the system work exactly? Will you need materials to repair the items, or is it just a "throw it in the crafting station and fix it" type of deal?

[emptyanima]

My only concern is that if people know they are going to need a smith/leatherworker etc, they may not want to have to rely on others for their skills and take them up themselves. This is fine up to a point, but if most people become crafters then their skills will end up being less in demand, not more.

Ever tried? You are an expert player and seem to know not a lot about the difficulty of crafting

I am aware of the dedication needed to master a skill, (one of my characters is doing all but two of the crafts but that may change, I also had a skilled smith) but all I am saying is that if a system is introduced whereby armour and weapon upkeep becomes important, more people will take up the crafts.

[DM Tarokka]

And how do you find it bad?

[Penguin Warlord]

And how do you find it bad?

+1

[Skullmonkey]

And how do you find it bad?

+2

[Jeebs]

I still think most players will opt for the convenience of just paying someone else who's spent the countless hours required to build up the craft rather than grinding it themselves. Maybe a few more people will take up crafting, but that's not really a bad thing.

[emptyanima]

It depends on how much investment will be needed to repair things effectively. If you can do a decent job with little effort, people will dip in and keep to themselves, but if you need to be skilled to repair stuff properly it'll make it a more valuable skill. I am not saying I don't want more people to take up crafting, I think a few more around would be no bad thing, but I simply want to know if the intended result to make dedicated crafting more useful would be reflected in its implementation.

I wouldn't have made the crafting tutorials if I didn't want people to craft, I just want to see how it will be balanced.

[Syl]

Well I can say I'll probably be lazy and pay to have someone else fix my things unless finding someone to fix leather becomes to difficult.

[DM Tarokka]

I am sorry I have not seen your tutorials (where are they?)

I think it was mentioned already that this should not be any deep damage on the players/characters. I believe the fact more people could decide to take a craft, or more, is not detrimental
to RP, in fact it can create more situations and collaborations, and being a "loner" crafter is tendencly a harder work (which I don't wish anyone to pursue)...