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Author Topic: Let's discuss the meta of summoning wiz/sorc familiars.  (Read 7104 times)

Syl

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Re: Let's discuss the meta of summoning wiz/sorc familiars.
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2016, 10:51:23 AM »
I work with a shadow that has a mind of it's own. :P sometimes I RP her raising on her own, or me calling her from the ground.

sometimes the shadow will move along the ground still attached.

either way.. working with shadows... #ShadowDancer Life.

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Merry Munchkin

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Re: Let's discuss the meta of summoning wiz/sorc familiars.
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2016, 10:34:01 PM »
I really wish that we didn't have the summoning circle effects present. Animal companions certainly shouldn't appear with such a magical looking visual, and I think to a lesser degree, that familiars should not have it either.

I would think it should be possible to remove the visual effect, since you can alter the visual effects of spells and even do custom spells.  Although if the visual effect is generic to all summons, then it might be removed for all summons.  Perhaps a developer can chime in on whether this is feasible, or just not worth the effort.


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Vel Karsh

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Re: Let's discuss the meta of summoning wiz/sorc familiars.
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2016, 11:48:02 PM »
In reading about witchcraft, I see that some believed familiars were non-corporeal spirits that could become corporeal only by drinking the blood of their witch. This is why moles and such were viewed as signs of witchcraft: they were the spot where the familiar suckled. Therefore, one reasonable interpretation would be that at least some supernatural-type familiars when unsummoned go to the near ethereal plane, much like other spirits.

On a completely unrelated question, other than buffing dexterity, is there any way to raise a pixie familiar's pick lock skill?

That is, regardless of which items you have such as thieves' tools, you cannot transfer any inventory bonuses to a pixie.

Miuo

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Re: Let's discuss the meta of summoning wiz/sorc familiars.
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2016, 12:39:50 AM »
Casting knock on them helps as well.

But yush, it tends to depend where i am for how i treat my familairs appearence. More often then not it is a summoned into being, given its used mostly in dungeons and it just makes more sense that way then a worg some how walking through the ML temple and going into the crypts alone to seek out my char who has need of them.

dark_majico

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Re: Let's discuss the meta of summoning wiz/sorc familiars.
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2016, 01:18:54 PM »
There's no ruling; it's one of those things that are up to players to RP.

Well seeing as the game engine does not support your familiar or animal companion being present at all times, I don't think you should roleplay something that isn't supported as that is cheesing. The familiar or animal can only be summoned once per rest and it uses a summoning visual, and requires an action, so if you follow the WYSIWYG rule (this is magic) you should take it how it is. These are summons. They are also affected by Dismissal and Unsummon, so they have mechanics that further cement summoning.

Exordium

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Re: Let's discuss the meta of summoning wiz/sorc familiars.
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2016, 01:30:45 PM »
I think that we shouldn't be too absolute in the WYSIWYG ruling when it goes to regarding things which do not directly affect other PCs or make you have powers which you shouldn't have.

For example, it would be cheesing to claim that your familiar cat is always around and since they have a good hearing, they heard what PCs whispered away from you.

Or, it would be cheesing to emote that your imp just attacked from the shadows even if it actually didn't attack anyone.

However, if you have your familiar interact with the world when it is actually summoned, I do not see a problem.

Vlax

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Re: Let's discuss the meta of summoning wiz/sorc familiars.
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2021, 03:05:22 AM »
I just rp it as my familiar is in some pocket dimension just chilling out. Kind of like a bag of holding.

DaloLorn

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Re: Let's discuss the meta of summoning wiz/sorc familiars.
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2021, 03:30:44 AM »
I just rp it as my familiar is in some pocket dimension just chilling out. Kind of like a bag of holding.

My take on it is similar, but with a decidedly negative slant. Most familiars probably aren't going to like being set adrift in a void, and Aela has had to make concessions to allow Hyla to fly over to Degannwy (the only place they know that accepts her) whenever it was feasible instead of properly unsummoning her.
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BraveSirRobin

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Re: Let's discuss the meta of summoning wiz/sorc familiars.
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2021, 10:27:16 AM »
I feel the urge to make a joke about Necromancers for some reason, but I can't put a decent one together. Four years dead, little Timmy, and you doth rise again.

Familiars are WYSIWYG. They aren't there, unless they're there. If they're claimed to be elsewhere, it must be on the person. I've seen snakes played that way before, like Shadow Asps, where they are within the jacket/robes/coat of a person, but for things that aren't a coiling serpent, there's really no realistic way to go about it. A Hellhound, Beholder, or otherwise do not have a way to be. Even having a set of Bat bones in your inventory would not constitute the correct rules, as summoning a familiar is summoning them to you, not re-animating a set of bones constantly.

It's among the mechanics not worth overthinking too much.

JustMonika

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Re: Let's discuss the meta of summoning wiz/sorc familiars.
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2021, 01:01:09 PM »
I feel the urge to make a joke about Necromancers for some reason, but I can't put a decent one together. Four years dead, little Timmy, and you doth rise again.

Familiars are WYSIWYG. They aren't there, unless they're there. If they're claimed to be elsewhere, it must be on the person. I've seen snakes played that way before, like Shadow Asps, where they are within the jacket/robes/coat of a person, but for things that aren't a coiling serpent, there's really no realistic way to go about it. A Hellhound, Beholder, or otherwise do not have a way to be. Even having a set of Bat bones in your inventory would not constitute the correct rules, as summoning a familiar is summoning them to you, not re-animating a set of bones constantly.

It's among the mechanics not worth overthinking too much.

What are the logistics of having a Hellhound on your person, exactly?

BraveSirRobin

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Re: Let's discuss the meta of summoning wiz/sorc familiars.
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2021, 01:07:15 PM »
I feel the urge to make a joke about Necromancers for some reason, but I can't put a decent one together. Four years dead, little Timmy, and you doth rise again.

Familiars are WYSIWYG. They aren't there, unless they're there. If they're claimed to be elsewhere, it must be on the person. I've seen snakes played that way before, like Shadow Asps, where they are within the jacket/robes/coat of a person, but for things that aren't a coiling serpent, there's really no realistic way to go about it. A Hellhound, Beholder, or otherwise do not have a way to be. Even having a set of Bat bones in your inventory would not constitute the correct rules, as summoning a familiar is summoning them to you, not re-animating a set of bones constantly.

It's among the mechanics not worth overthinking too much.

What are the logistics of having a Hellhound on your person, exactly?

You've misread the context of my post.

Quote from: My Quote
I've seen snakes played that way before, like Shadow Asps, where they are within the jacket/robes/coat of a person, but for things that aren't a coiling serpent, there's really no realistic way to go about it. A Hellhound, Beholder, or otherwise do not have a way to be.

That is to say, Hellhounds, Beholders, or otherwise do not have a way to be [on your person.]

Wilkins1952

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Re: Let's discuss the meta of summoning wiz/sorc familiars.
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2021, 01:47:11 PM »
For my self personally I have A hellhound Familiar who for RP reasons is not summoned but instead Hiding in the woods and surrounding area of where my PC is at the time. And Summoning her is just calling her to me.
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JustMonika

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Re: Let's discuss the meta of summoning wiz/sorc familiars.
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2021, 01:51:13 PM »
For my self personally I have A hellhound Familiar who for RP reasons is not summoned but instead Hiding in the woods and surrounding area of where my PC is at the time. And Summoning her is just calling her to me.

Was that not the very thing BSR was suggesting was improper?

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Let's discuss the meta of summoning wiz/sorc familiars.
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2021, 02:22:58 PM »
I don't see what's so wrong about calling the familiar or companion to you if you're not cheesing that it's on lookout when it's not even summoned. If you make the concession that it doesn't come back with any (metagamed) information, and don't overthink that part too much, you're fine. There is no need to look further into the 3e/3.5 rules about this, because the way we do familiars is already against the tradition of the tabletop game. We also see very little roleplay concerning familiars because they are a hassle to control, keep alive, roleplay simultaneously with your own character, and they are possessed of numerous glitches, so disincentivising it more by putting them in a box is not a pro-roleplay move. The server's no metagaming rule is easy to understand, this doesn't cross that line. When it does, it's because of a bad faith player, who should be handled on an individual basis.
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tylernwn

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Re: Let's discuss the meta of summoning wiz/sorc familiars.
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2021, 03:01:29 PM »
I've been reading a little here and there, and nowhere have I seen explained exactly HOW you bring forth your familiar.
Where are they meantime, when not summoned?

If we go by the WYSIWYG rule of NWN and PoTM overall, then they are clearly being 'summoned' into existence.
But, what I want to know is; what happens really? Is there any source for this?

What I have always been told, is they are following you and hiding nearby. Hence no summoning. They are just hiding (in your pocket, behind a tree, whatever)

Wilkins1952

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Re: Let's discuss the meta of summoning wiz/sorc familiars.
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2021, 03:28:16 PM »
For my self personally I have A hellhound Familiar who for RP reasons is not summoned but instead Hiding in the woods and surrounding area of where my PC is at the time. And Summoning her is just calling her to me.

Was that not the very thing BSR was suggesting was improper?

That is what I was arguing against summoning seems like it is just a mechanic thing and perhaps in some cases that happenes but then the question becomes where do they go when you unsummon them? And that opens up even more inconsistancys with the lore.
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Marcus Weyland

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Re: Let's discuss the meta of summoning wiz/sorc familiars.
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2021, 01:36:41 PM »
Thread necromancy revived this discussion, but it's one that hasn't come up for a little while, at least.

The ability to instantaneously conjure and dismiss your familiar or animal companion precisely once per rest cycle is a convention of Neverwinter Nights. If you don't elaborate IC on where the creature came from, everyone else has to find ways to rationalize how it got there.

If you have to explain IC where your familiar came from/is/went, just make sure the explanation doesn't rely on anything that can't be true, like that your death dog has its own room at the Governor's Hotel, your raven is in an area where other players actually are, or your beholder left Vallaki through streets that have NPCs who would've attacked it in them.

If you want to be a champ, you'd also restrict your use of familiar summoning/dismissal to when you aren't in a scene with other players at all.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 01:46:17 PM by Marcus Weyland »

Profezzor_Darke

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Re: Let's discuss the meta of summoning wiz/sorc familiars.
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2021, 04:29:52 PM »
I feel the urge to make a joke about Necromancers for some reason, but I can't put a decent one together. Four years dead, little Timmy, and you doth rise again.

Familiars are WYSIWYG. They aren't there, unless they're there. If they're claimed to be elsewhere, it must be on the person. I've seen snakes played that way before, like Shadow Asps, where they are within the jacket/robes/coat of a person, but for things that aren't a coiling serpent, there's really no realistic way to go about it. A Hellhound, Beholder, or otherwise do not have a way to be. Even having a set of Bat bones in your inventory would not constitute the correct rules, as summoning a familiar is summoning them to you, not re-animating a set of bones constantly.

It's among the mechanics not worth overthinking too much.

Wow, I become a co-necromancer...

BSR, farther back in this thread it was quoted by Exordium that there is no hard ruling to familiars. While they are constantly bound they can be wherever the player wants them to be as long as it wouldn't break other rules as Marcus said.

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BraveSirRobin

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Re: Let's discuss the meta of summoning wiz/sorc familiars.
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2021, 09:32:35 PM »
For my self personally I have A hellhound Familiar who for RP reasons is not summoned but instead Hiding in the woods and surrounding area of where my PC is at the time. And Summoning her is just calling her to me.

Was that not the very thing BSR was suggesting was improper?

Correct.

I feel the urge to make a joke about Necromancers for some reason, but I can't put a decent one together. Four years dead, little Timmy, and you doth rise again.

Familiars are WYSIWYG. They aren't there, unless they're there. If they're claimed to be elsewhere, it must be on the person. I've seen snakes played that way before, like Shadow Asps, where they are within the jacket/robes/coat of a person, but for things that aren't a coiling serpent, there's really no realistic way to go about it. A Hellhound, Beholder, or otherwise do not have a way to be. Even having a set of Bat bones in your inventory would not constitute the correct rules, as summoning a familiar is summoning them to you, not re-animating a set of bones constantly.

It's among the mechanics not worth overthinking too much.

Wow, I become a co-necromancer...

BSR, farther back in this thread it was quoted by Exordium that there is no hard ruling to familiars. While they are constantly bound they can be wherever the player wants them to be as long as it wouldn't break other rules as Marcus said.

The rule is that it's WYSIWYG, it's technically not illegal at all to roleplay summoning them. Trying to overcomplicate and explain the convention of where they are is a slippery slope at best. Simultaneously, nobody can punish you for just saying you're literally summoning them, because it's a NWNism until the mechanics change.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 09:35:19 PM by BraveSirRobin »

Glass Cannon

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Re: Let's discuss the meta of summoning wiz/sorc familiars.
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2021, 05:47:24 AM »
WYSIWYG is mainly for spells and spell-like abilities.  https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=22855.msg274799#msg274799

Summoning your familiar isn't really such thing, so WYSIWYG doesn't really apply, hence why the DM team haven't made any hard rules about it.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 05:49:08 AM by Glass Cannon »
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