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Author Topic: Rules  (Read 8084 times)

--GlamRock--

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Rules
« on: May 18, 2016, 09:31:17 AM »
I will write this and not answering to it, just letting the debate flow and developers make decisions if they deem it worth. In my opinion, the rule that what's dropped from the body of a killed character (even when killed by someone else) can be taken is outdated, maybe just a memento of something of some 7-8 years ago, when money was quite hard to earn (as a matter of fact one of the main issues nowadays is creating moneysinks) and when some weapons could be greatly rare. These days when characters have the chance to have enchanted weapons, which are linked to characters, and are looted of them, are simply crippled (of time, of xp, of an item on which tehy invested both), so in the case of the loot of those I believe it'd be good form an ooc agreement before proceding to an actual loot.

My two cents. I've no enchanted weapon to lose, I don't care about money.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 09:33:49 AM by --GlamRock-- »
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HellsPanda

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Re: Rules
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2016, 10:08:19 AM »
The problem is then there would be little to no mechanical risk to pvp conflict, personally i think we have already gone to much towards the little risk factor, and what originally drew me to this server

Nemesis 24

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Re: Rules
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2016, 10:19:55 AM »
The problem is then there would be little to no mechanical risk to pvp conflict, personally i think we have already gone to much towards the little risk factor, and what originally drew me to this server

Agreed.  If anything I think the risk factor should be higher somehow.

Ehver

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Re: Rules
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2016, 10:35:22 AM »
The problem is then there would be little to no mechanical risk to pvp conflict, personally i think we have already gone to much towards the little risk factor, and what originally drew me to this server

Agreed.  If anything I think the risk factor should be higher somehow.

Agreed! I'm almost surprised that we don't have a system in place to loot a corpse for all of their inventory... Though I think that kind of thing would be far too easily abused by people looking to get their hands on nice equipment, so it might be for the best.

That being said, I don't think the rule should change, but I would feel really bad for anyone who gets ganked with little to no RP involved. :/
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dark_majico

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Re: Rules
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2016, 11:57:48 AM »
The problem is then there would be little to no mechanical risk to pvp conflict, personally i think we have already gone to much towards the little risk factor, and what originally drew me to this server

Agreed.  If anything I think the risk factor should be higher somehow.

I agree too, although I don't think that loosing all items is the answer, it will just ensure that people run out kill monsters to get gold, buy an invis potion, drink it and run back to get all their gear as soon as possible, i'd probably do that if I lost hundreds of items lol.

Mereyn

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Re: Rules
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2016, 12:20:00 PM »
I feel like it should be noted that things which have been enchanted are quite literally useless to the person who hasn't made them.
So, if we go a pessimistic route, it would just be used as leverage in an almost OOC fashion against a player. And if not, then the question arises, why one would pick up junk.
I'm not interested nor do I really care enough to subscribe to one side or the other of this discussion, seeing how I've no past involvement in the topic.

Or in other words, I don't think the topic at hand is about consequences of death, which I find funny that losing the stuff you lug around all day is the worst consequence imaginable,
but that losing something that is of no worth to anyone else, but still kept away from you is utterly pointless in the grand scheme of things.

Iconoclast

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Re: Rules
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2016, 01:15:01 PM »


As to the enchanted gear that can't be used by others, it pretty much reduces the gear to plot items at that point, if they are taken by another. Not wanting to upset players in the past, I chose to not take the enchanted weapons after pvp. I did have that oddly backfire once, leaving a very nice enchanted axe behind after pvp with my character's nemesis at the time. Few months later, another character boasted having taken the special axe from this nemesis, and was trying to sell the axe to my character, who could have taken it for herself, for a lot of coin. 

However, if it is within the alignment of the character, holding onto the items for ransom or some other form of leverage is at least furthering the story in a meaningful way, so long as players can avoid getting bent out of shape over it.


FinalHeaven

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Re: Rules
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2016, 01:17:36 PM »
I feel like it should be noted that things which have been enchanted are quite literally useless to the person who hasn't made them.
So, if we go a pessimistic route, it would just be used as leverage in an almost OOC fashion against a player. And if not, then the question arises, why one would pick up junk.
I'm not interested nor do I really care enough to subscribe to one side or the other of this discussion, seeing how I've no past involvement in the topic.

Or in other words, I don't think the topic at hand is about consequences of death, which I find funny that losing the stuff you lug around all day is the worst consequence imaginable,
but that losing something that is of no worth to anyone else, but still kept away from you is utterly pointless in the grand scheme of things.

Personally I'd think having leverage over a character is a very legitimate in-character roleplay oppurtunity.  There are evil factions and individual characters on the server that thrive on manipulation and getting others to do their dirty work for them.  Acquiring someone's enchanted item and holding it ransom is no different than acquiring someone's purely personal, no value "RP item" like a mother's necklace.  It's the player of the item that attaches the value, all the evil character does is take the item that has the most value to that character.  The 'use' as you put it to the character who picks up the item is this leverage.  Whether or not someone chooses to claim it is oocly motivated is irrelevant, I'd think, and a matter to be discussed with the CC or DM team if it could be proven.



--GlamRock--

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Re: Rules
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2016, 01:27:19 PM »
I feel like it should be noted that things which have been enchanted are quite literally useless to the person who hasn't made them.
So, if we go a pessimistic route, it would just be used as leverage in an almost OOC fashion against a player. And if not, then the question arises, why one would pick up junk.
I'm not interested nor do I really care enough to subscribe to one side or the other of this discussion, seeing how I've no past involvement in the topic.

Or in other words, I don't think the topic at hand is about consequences of death, which I find funny that losing the stuff you lug around all day is the worst consequence imaginable,
but that losing something that is of no worth to anyone else, but still kept away from you is utterly pointless in the grand scheme of things.

Personally I'd think having leverage over a character is a very legitimate in-character roleplay oppurtunity.  There are evil factions and individual characters on the server that thrive on manipulation and getting others to do their dirty work for them.  Acquiring someone's enchanted item and holding it ransom is no different than acquiring someone's purely personal, no value "RP item" like a mother's necklace.  It's the player of the item that attaches the value, all the evil character does is take the item that has the most value to that character.  The 'use' as you put it to the character who picks up the item is this leverage.  Whether or not someone chooses to claim it is oocly motivated is irrelevant, I'd think, and a matter to be discussed with the CC or DM team if it could be proven.

So you say it's not a rule, since it's decided on an invidual basis.

OOC is anyway always there, especially when there are things which can be easily in camouflage as you say "because I'm evil".

Sorry, I told I wasn't going to reply, and it's not even a matter, this specifically, I care a lot of, but somehow I feel it as  Pandora's box for other issues... (and the replies I read so far are proving my point intimately).
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Norture

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Re: Rules
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2016, 01:39:34 PM »
I agree with HellsPanda and FinalHeaven.

I also don't see how enchanted weapons could be used primarily as an OOC leverage, holding a weapon hostage sounds like an IC thing to me. And doing that kind of thing gets players on so many blacklists it's not worth it most of the time. Hmm, which is making me think, it might be fun to play a player fence.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 01:44:08 PM by Norture »

Dumas

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Re: Rules
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2016, 01:44:41 PM »
Isn't there a possibility that personal enchanted weapons that are stolen or captured can be used for RP developments such as disenchanting, cursing, sapping the strength from, melting down, etc? There's plenty of RP that can revolve around the actual enchanted item even if the thief or looter can't technically equip it in the first place. Obviously, what I mentioned above would need a DM, but it certainly adds  even more to the IC leverage/fencing RP routes that exist.

Arawn

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Re: Rules
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2016, 01:57:29 PM »
There is plenty of RP in almost every situation, with a little imagination. Just treat it as your character would.
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--GlamRock--

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Re: Rules
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2016, 02:18:09 PM »
Last reply on my term, and it's even one more than I wished.

All you say depend on DMs's decisions. DMs are free to play with whom they want, as I was told (if contraddicted on this I'd rather have a separate thread or a PM) . And most DMs play in Northamerican timezone even when Europeans. Maybe it all can be dealt with more easily if in the same timezone, and this is can be done and fairly if that be the case. I let any interpretation to the simple statements.

I started the topic only because here the only mechanical way to get the loot of someone who's been killed is for what he's dropped (coins and weapons equipped), if not a DM present on the scene. But mechanical doesn't mean it's fair always, even within the rules. Unless for years I have misunderstood this is a PVP server and not a permanent world/story-driven one. And not always mechanical means story or RP.

Anyway if the rule it's fine as it is for the majority, that is fine, not going to express anything on the matter anyway.



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Arawn

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Re: Rules
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2016, 02:21:27 PM »
I started the topic only because here the only mechanical way to get the loot of someone who's been killed is for what he's dropped (coins and weapons equipped), if not a DM present on the scene. But mechanical doesn't mean it's fair always, even within the rules. Unless for years I have misunderstood this is a PVP server and not a permanent world/story-driven one. And not always mechanical means story or RP.

No, this simply isn't true. If there's an important quest, story, or personal item you want the other person to find on your body, your ghost can drop items next to your corpse. Inventory-dumping is generally taken to be OOC item transfer and not allowed, but a few items relevant to the situation or the story is fine. Yes, it requires OOC accord between the players involved, and if there is discord, you need a DM. But in general, we'd like to think most PvP happens with some level of understanding and acceptance on both sides.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 02:23:01 PM by Arawn »
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Hatsune

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Re: Rules
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2016, 04:13:09 AM »
Its all about respect, really. Showing respect for your fellow players, in whatever situation it is, PVP, or whatever. If you take the weapon, have an IC REASON for it. Be respectful in knowing that they will come looking for it later (if you leave them to be raised or healed or whatever). Don't just take it "just because". Don't just take it to be an OOC  a-hole.

My most Recent AMPC had an obnoxious AB, so I disarmed people all the time. I got ahold of 3-4 enchanted weapons. But I had no IC reason to keep them, so made sure I dropped them after encounters or if I was fleeing. Sure, I could have kept them, but ICly wasn't really any reason to, and I showed respect for their time and effort in aquiring the item.

All about respect. Respect others time, RP, and efforts, and hopefully in the end you'll be shown the same respect when tables turn. (Of course won't ALWAYS happen, but we can hope!)
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DM Brimstone

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Re: Rules
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2016, 04:24:32 AM »
Its all about respect, really.

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noah25

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Re: Rules
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2016, 05:24:09 AM »
Speaking of death penalties, is there any mechanical way or interest in a certain number of raises having a severe mechanical effect on your character. Obviously you can RP it and many do very well, however others hop up like all is good and dandy. Especially once a corpse has been badly mutilated in excess I personally would love to see mechanical minuses with anything from skill deductions to ability score decreases that are permanent etc. Just a thought :)

Iluvatar / Madness

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Re: Rules
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2016, 12:54:00 PM »

Speaking of death penalties, is there any mechanical way or interest in a certain number of raises having a severe mechanical effect on your character. Obviously you can RP it and many do very well, however others hop up like all is good and dandy. Especially once a corpse has been badly mutilated in excess I personally would love to see mechanical minuses with anything from skill deductions to ability score decreases that are permanent etc. Just a thought :)

Permanent decrease of skill/ability would be way to severe considering the number of time a character dies. People would just stop playing their character after too much death because they wouldn't be able to dungeon anymore. Permanent stuff like that should only be given by DM because it has a lot of influence on a character.

A temporary decrease could be good though. I know that when a character is raised ability score is reduced until next rest, but something that would last longer could be interesting. You would need to wait longer before going dungeon again. I think while something like that is not too severe, it reflect well the fact that after dying and being raised a person can't just wait a few hours then go back to fighting has if nothing happened.
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noah25

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Re: Rules
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2016, 10:20:28 PM »
In practice though if someone is dying an obscene number of times in their character span there should be something wrong with them though. Whether its charisma, int, etc. that many deaths should have a severe impact, at least in my opinion.

DrXavierTColtrane

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Re: Rules
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2016, 11:56:44 PM »
In practice though if someone is dying an obscene number of times in their character span there should be something wrong with them though. Whether its charisma, int, etc. that many deaths should have a severe impact, at least in my opinion.

Well, it is just an opinion, and so you can play your character that way, but "should" a person be raised from the dead at all? How many deaths constitute an "obscene" number?

In point of fact, if a character dies a lot--especially a low-level character--I give props to the person playing that character for staying power. I certainly wanted to quit a couple of times back when I started here because death was such a frustrating experience. Wandering around the Near Ethereal waiting for help is not anything I find enjoyable.

One problem with making death worse is it makes characters more risk averse. If the penalties for dying are increased, then in the interest of game balance the rewards for risking death also have to be increased, or players will tend to hang around and chat more--especially at high levels. That is, gimping a low-level can be mitigated by rolling up a new one. But if you start permanently maiming high levels each time they're raised, high levels will fight true challenges less and less.

High levels tend to have good gear and lots of money already. If they can get XP through roleplay, why risk permanently losing abilities to get the same quality of gear and unneeded gold?
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Norture

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Re: Rules
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2016, 12:31:17 AM »
The last time this discussion came up, people mentioned other servers where there are more risks to death, and that it actually does make players not do anything risky at all. A character is a big time investment, especially getting geared up enough to compete. I think things are fine how they are, it's a balance between death and the risks of dying and losing a char vs not going out and doing anything because you're too scared that your character will die.

noah25

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Re: Rules
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2016, 12:50:31 PM »
It's supposed to be a roleplay server. I don't see a mechanism which further encourages people to roleplay instead of dungeon crawl doesn't seem negative to me.

Arawn

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Re: Rules
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2016, 12:55:30 PM »
Just for the sake of argument, what would you guys think about applying the strict PnP death rules? Immediate loss of one level, or two points of CON if you're level 1, even on a Resurrection.
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Exordium

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Re: Rules
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2016, 12:57:49 PM »
It's supposed to be a roleplay server. I don't see a mechanism which further encourages people to roleplay instead of dungeon crawl doesn't seem negative to me.

Dungeoning and roleplaying are not mutually exclusive, though. A lot of really awesome roleplay has occurred and keeps occurring during adventures.

As Norture mentioned, I'm one of the people who has played some time on servers where death is either permanent or there's a maximum amount of raises (such as 10) a character can have. In my opinion, it really does lead to people avoiding not only adventuring trips, but also RP that could potentially lead to PvP. Conflict, danger and risk are great for roleplay.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2016, 01:04:39 PM by Exordium »

Dumas

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Re: Rules
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2016, 01:22:42 PM »
I would say death rules are just fine. This is a computer game, played through what for some people might be an instable internet connection. A lag death or a mis-click that's going to result in a permanent level drop is not something that I see adding significant enjoyment to anyone's play time.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2016, 01:25:53 PM by Dumas »