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Author Topic: Gundarak history  (Read 3795 times)

herkles

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Gundarak history
« on: May 06, 2016, 10:23:13 PM »
Hello,

chatting on the discord chat with Ezlin/Olywynn and he stated that Gundarak was founded as horde that settled Gundarak, like the Magyars that founded Hungary.

However while I am not sure if he is correct or not, it did make me wonder about Gundarak history. Since there is barely anything on Gundarak particularly gundarak when it was indepedent. there is some in the Gazeteers mostly 1 and 4 and some in the realm of Terror, but over all there is not that much information. So I am curious where is the info on this domain :)

He also stated that the Nerull faith is more like tengrism. Which admitably I like more then the crazy death cult that is filled with necromancers and that I doubt any magic fearing gundarakite would join. He did say that Nerull is rather different in Ravenloft compared to Greyhawk. The only real info I can find is in Gaz 1, but doesn't really say if he supports having a bunch of necromancers of doom or not.

This made me curious what Nerull is truly like in ravenloft. Is it a cult that adores necromancers or not? I am wondering what the all wise Bluebomber has to say on this as well.  :)

Spoiler: Ezlin on Discord • show


This Gundarakite death god was both sanctioned and encouraged by Duke Gundar when he ruled the lands that were once Gundarak. He is believed to be a very ancient deity, perhaps a corruption of Irlek-Khan, the demonic entity worshipped by the Neureni hordes who once conquered Barovia eons ago. He is portrayed as a trickster who created death as a deception, and delegated his duties to a host of demons. His neglect of his duties allows the dead to escape, thus creating the undead.

The evil spirits created by Erlik cause misfortune, sickness, and death to mankind. These spirits are imagined as Erlik's assistants. Erlik gives all kinds of sickness and wants sacrifices from the people. If they do not sacrifice to him, he catches the dead bodies of the people that he killed and takes them away to this lower world and then makes them his slaves. So, especially in the Altays, when sickness appears, people become scared of Erlik and make many animal sacrifices to him.


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Re: Gundarak history
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2016, 03:06:57 AM »
Hello,

chatting on the discord chat with Ezlin/Olywynn and he stated that Gundarak was founded as horde that settled Gundarak, like the Magyars that founded Hungary.

However while I am not sure if he is correct or not, it did make me wonder about Gundarak history. Since there is barely anything on Gundarak particularly gundarak when it was indepedent. there is some in the Gazeteers mostly 1 and 4 and some in the realm of Terror, but over all there is not that much information. So I am curious where is the info on this domain :)
The Gazetteers are the most comprehensive books about the Core domains that are available; if there's no info on a Core domain (minus the Seas and islands in them) in the Gazetteer, it's not going to be found anywhere else.

Quote
He also stated that the Nerull faith is more like tengrism. Which admitably I like more then the crazy death cult that is filled with necromancers and that I doubt any magic fearing gundarakite would join. He did say that Nerull is rather different in Ravenloft compared to Greyhawk. The only real info I can find is in Gaz 1, but doesn't really say if he supports having a bunch of necromancers of doom or not.

This made me curious what Nerull is truly like in ravenloft. Is it a cult that adores necromancers or not? I am wondering what the all wise Bluebomber has to say on this as well.  :)
Again, the Cult of Erlin is detailed in Gazetteer I and nowhere else. I don't know where Olwynn got the idea that it's like tengrism from, but that's wrong. I don't know why people think they "adore necromancers" either. They're a cult of a death god, so they'd have clerics. Necromancers are wizards.

Quote
Spoiler: Ezlin on Discord • show


This Gundarakite death god was both sanctioned and encouraged by Duke Gundar when he ruled the lands that were once Gundarak. He is believed to be a very ancient deity, perhaps a corruption of Irlek-Khan, the demonic entity worshipped by the Neureni hordes who once conquered Barovia eons ago. He is portrayed as a trickster who created death as a deception, and delegated his duties to a host of demons. His neglect of his duties allows the dead to escape, thus creating the undead.

The evil spirits created by Erlik cause misfortune, sickness, and death to mankind. These spirits are imagined as Erlik's assistants. Erlik gives all kinds of sickness and wants sacrifices from the people. If they do not sacrifice to him, he catches the dead bodies of the people that he killed and takes them away to this lower world and then makes them his slaves. So, especially in the Altays, when sickness appears, people become scared of Erlik and make many animal sacrifices to him.


~herkles~
I don't know what this is or where it came from, but it's all wrong.

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Arawn

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Re: Gundarak history
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2016, 03:10:53 AM »
Quote
Again, the Cult of Erlin is detailed in Gazetteer I and nowhere else. I don't know where Olwynn got the idea that it's like tengrism from, but that's wrong. I don't know why people think they "adore necromancers" either. They're a cult of a death god, so they'd have clerics. Necromancers are wizards.

It's an unsubstantiated extrapolation from the 'false history' of the Gundarakite people. Though, for anyone reading, here's what our Religion Resource Thread says on the subject:

Notes: This Gundarakite death god was both sanctioned and encouraged by Duke Gundar when he ruled the lands that were once Gundarak. He is believed to be a very ancient deity, perhaps a corruption of Irlek-Khan, the demonic entity worshipped by the Neureni hordes who once conquered Barovia eons ago. He is portrayed as a trickster who created death as a deception, and delegated his duties to a host of demons. His neglect of his duties allows the dead to escape, thus creating the undead. Outlanders claiming to be from a world called “Oerth” paint a very different picture of the god: they claim on their world, Nerull is a widely known and widely feared deity who finds all living things an affront to his being, and his worshippers murder and slay as many as possible to appease the fearsome reaper. Worship of Nerull (mispronounced as “Erlin” by Barovians, due to their erroneus belief that he is the same as the ancient Neureni demon Irlek-Khan) nearly disappeared when Strahd von Zarovich annexed Gundarak in the aftermath of the Great Upheaval, but has recently been cast by the Gundarakite rebels as just one more element of Gundarakite culture being systematically crushed by Barovian oppression. Nerull might have only served as a political symbol if not for the rebel Emanuel Maryszkas who, in 754 BC called upon the power of Nerull to save him from the Barovian militiamen giving him chase. His calls were answered when waves of unholy fear swept over his pursuers. Emanuel is now the leader of the cult of Nerull in Barovia, and is seeking an alliance with the greater Gundarakite rebellion movement.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2016, 03:52:34 AM by Arawn »
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Re: Gundarak history
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2016, 04:04:20 AM »
Right, I remember writing that. But it's important to remember that the stuff about Irlek-Khan and the Neureni is only what the ethnic Barovians believe about the religion, not what the Gundarakites believe.

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Arawn

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Re: Gundarak history
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2016, 04:14:14 AM »
Right, I remember writing that. But it's important to remember that the stuff about Irlek-Khan and the Neureni is only what the ethnic Barovians believe about the religion, not what the Gundarakites believe.

Yeah. I think we should be careful not to extrapolate much if anything from this, because it's, well, false.
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Re: Gundarak history
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2016, 08:08:34 AM »
There are some very minor references to Gundarak in one of those Lord Soth novels but yeah, it's poorly detailed.

herkles

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Re: Gundarak history
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2016, 11:48:52 AM »
Hello,

chatting on the discord chat with Ezlin/Olywynn and he stated that Gundarak was founded as horde that settled Gundarak, like the Magyars that founded Hungary.

However while I am not sure if he is correct or not, it did make me wonder about Gundarak history. Since there is barely anything on Gundarak particularly gundarak when it was indepedent. there is some in the Gazeteers mostly 1 and 4 and some in the realm of Terror, but over all there is not that much information. So I am curious where is the info on this domain :)

The Gazetteers are the most comprehensive books about the Core domains that are available; if there's no info on a Core domain (minus the Seas and islands in them) in the Gazetteer, it's not going to be found anywhere else.

Aww. I was hoping that there was going to be another book that I missed that would have more information on Gundarak. For a domain that is the source of plots for two domains since it was conqurered there is little to find on Gundarak itself.

Quote
He also stated that the Nerull faith is more like tengrism. Which admitably I like more then the crazy death cult that is filled with necromancers and that I doubt any magic fearing gundarakite would join. He did say that Nerull is rather different in Ravenloft compared to Greyhawk. The only real info I can find is in Gaz 1, but doesn't really say if he supports having a bunch of necromancers of doom or not.

This made me curious what Nerull is truly like in ravenloft. Is it a cult that adores necromancers or not? I am wondering what the all wise Bluebomber has to say on this as well.  :)

Again, the Cult of Erlin is detailed in Gazetteer I and nowhere else. I don't know where Olwynn got the idea that it's like tengrism from, but that's wrong. I don't know why people think they "adore necromancers" either. They're a cult of a death god, so they'd have clerics. Necromancers are wizards.

Mostly due to how the Cult has been portrayed in the past. probaly due to people mixing up Greyhawk Nerull and Ravenloft Nerull. Where necromancers and clerics who raised the undead were part of the cult and all sorts of necromantic shenanigans went down in the past. Thus they are thought of as a cult that loves undeath and necromancy.

It doesn't seem like something that the Gundarakites themselves would be a part of since they do seem to fear magic just as much as barovians. But the above is pretty much how it has been portayed from what I can tell.

Quote
Again, the Cult of Erlin is detailed in Gazetteer I and nowhere else. I don't know where Olwynn got the idea that it's like tengrism from, but that's wrong. I don't know why people think they "adore necromancers" either. They're a cult of a death god, so they'd have clerics. Necromancers are wizards.

It's an unsubstantiated extrapolation from the 'false history' of the Gundarakite people. Though, for anyone reading, here's what our Religion Resource Thread says on the subject:

I did notice that Gazetter 1 does state: "Legends of the Gundars leading their barbarian people to settle in gundarak are of course false history, and therefore Erlin is not truly the bastardization of an ancient tribal god." Which might lead some credence to Ezlin's interpertation.  As IMO even if it is false history that doesn't mean natives would believe that it is not real history; especially in a culture like the Gundarakites.

Still though, you are right that there shouldn't be much drawn from the idea of Irlek and Erlik are similar.


modderpunk

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Re: Gundarak history
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2016, 11:53:34 AM »
There are some very minor references to Gundarak in one of those Lord Soth novels but yeah, it's poorly detailed.

Isn't there not also an adventure where the heroes can can kill duke Gundar? I haven't read it yet but maybe that has some info too

Edit: ok i found the adventure i meant: Feast of Goblins. The killing of Gundar isn't in it and there isn't much info on Gundarak either :(
« Last Edit: May 07, 2016, 12:48:13 PM by modderpunk »



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Re: Gundarak history
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2021, 04:50:04 PM »
Are the Gundarkites descended from the Flan of Greyhawk?  This would make them very similar to the migrant horde of the Magyars.  Obviously similar in design and function but are they canonically the same?  Nerull comes from the Flan's Old Faith pantheon.

https://greyhawkonline.com/greyhawkwiki/Flan#:~:text=Greyhawk%20creature%20Flan%20is%20generally%20used%20in%20reference,to%20the%20language%20and%20culture%20of%20said%20people.

ladylena

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Re: Gundarak history
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2021, 05:18:09 PM »
Are the Gundarkites descended from the Flan of Greyhawk?  This would make them very similar to the migrant horde of the Magyars.  Obviously similar in design and function but are they canonically the same?  Nerull comes from the Flan's Old Faith pantheon.

https://greyhawkonline.com/greyhawkwiki/Flan#:~:text=Greyhawk%20creature%20Flan%20is%20generally%20used%20in%20reference,to%20the%20language%20and%20culture%20of%20said%20people.

I believe the domain was inspired by greyhawk, but keep in mind that the description of the ravenloft version states that while that nerull and the nerull of gundarak have the same name they are not the same diety. The ravenloft one is described as a lazy trickster who created death as a deception.
https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=60399.0
This is a pretty good source for the material, however, I can not seem to find any information pertaining to the lists of the fiends that serve him. I'm currently running a in character events mutated version of the cult if you're interested you can check here: https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=17133.msg696517#msg696517 or messege me. I'm always looking for lore on this stuff
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Re: Gundarak history
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2021, 01:51:33 PM »
Incorrect the Nerull of Greyhawk and the one from Ravenloft are one and the same. The faith may have changed slightly, but it is definitively the same god.
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ladylena

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Re: Gundarak history
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2021, 02:07:44 PM »
Incorrect the Nerull of Greyhawk and the one from Ravenloft are one and the same. The faith may have changed slightly, but it is definitively the same god.

Quote
https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=18979.msg221122#msg221122
He is portrayed as a trickster who created death as a deception, and delegated his duties to a host of demons. His neglect of his duties allows the dead to escape, thus creating the undead. Outlanders claiming to be from a world called “Oerth” paint a very different picture of the god: they claim on their world, Nerull is a widely known and widely feared deity who finds all living things an affront to his being, and his worshippers murder and slay as many as possible to appease the fearsome reaper.

What I meant by not being the same diety was based on this. The descriptions of the two are rather different, so I always interpreted that as it being the same god but not the same since most dieties in the mists are versions of their source ones. So here we're going definitively that they are the same diety despite the descriptions varying so drastically?
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MAB77

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Re: Gundarak history
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2021, 03:42:37 PM »
Except here that the Gundarakite description is not contradicting the Oerthian description. They need not be mutually exclusive. Nerull, as he is on Oerth certainly has a sick twisted sense of humor, it's no surprise that he can be perceived as a trickster, he relishes anything that causes mayhem and death.

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