Enchanting and Dementlieu

[herkles]

Hello,

I have a question for the Devs and DMs, but is the Enchanting craft necromancy? It seems to be portrayed as a soul sucking or soul draining experience which screams necromancy to me. Necromancy is one of the High crimes that results in death. Now the device isn't in a hidden location, like the necromancy shop, but it is out in the open at the prestigious University of Dementlieu.

Now if it is Soul-Sucking, Soul Draining or anything like that, then shouldn't their be a huge court case where ever enchanting person is executed for the High Crime of Necromancy. So what exactly does the enchanting process do?

~herkles~

[Norture]

I've actually seen a number of people RP it as taking part of someone's soul and putting it into an item, so there are people out there who RP it as necromancy. Especially evil characters or people specializing in necromancy, they very much like to RP it as being a necromantic process.

Would it make more sense to be transmutation where you transmute bodily energy into magical power that enhances an object?

[FinalHeaven]

I'm fairly certain what is actually happening during the process is meant to be mysterious but that it is obviously not Necromancy, because of the laws of the country the machine is in.

There is also some interesting information you can find out by talking to the right people to indicate the machine likely isn't taking a part of your soul.

[Syl]

The whole Enchanting is necromancy thing has been brought up before.. But I don't believe it would be.

[MAB77]

To be honest, as a dev, I have way too much fun to watch these in-game debates, so I will not be the one who would give you an OOC anwser that would ruin it all. The bottom line is that the answer to your question is not even important OOCly. Roleplay it out. Take part in the in-game debates and have your characters make an opinion for themselves. It will be a far more rewarding process than knowing an OOC answer that might stymied your creativity and how you RP around it.

[booksarefun666]

The laws in Dementlieu is so vague that they probably could bust you for necromancy if one held up a good enough argument for it in court using the enchanting shtick.

[ZachSmack]

To be honest, as a dev, I have way too much fun to watch these in-game debates, so I will not be the one who would give you an OOC anwser that would ruin it all. The bottom line is that the answer to your question is not even important OOCly. Roleplay it out. Take part in the in-game debates and have your characters make an opinion for themselves. It will be a far more rewarding process than knowing an OOC answer that might stymied your creativity and how you RP around it.

I really like this response to it, look forward to seeing the debates continue to rage on ic

[Bluebomber4evr]

Enchantment and necromancy are two different schools of magic, so no.

All magic item creation in D&D requires spending XP to create an item, all we've done is made it so that it doesn't necessarily have to be the caster's XP.

[herkles]

To be honest, as a dev, I have way too much fun to watch these in-game debates, so I will not be the one who would give you an OOC anwser that would ruin it all. The bottom line is that the answer to your question is not even important OOCly. Roleplay it out. Take part in the in-game debates and have your characters make an opinion for themselves. It will be a far more rewarding process than knowing an OOC answer that might stymied your creativity and how you RP around it.

I do generally agree with you.

But just to make sure I get it correct if someone is rping that the enchantment process Literally drains the soul of someone, not their belief but rping that is actually what happens, is cheesing right?

thanks for the responses so far.

[Kendric98]

All i know is that sounds like a good event. I would come to see a trial of someone charged with necromancy over its use for sure.

[ThePwush]

So here's the question...

Who's going to bring up the accusation against whom?

[booksarefun666]

Enchantment and necromancy are two different schools of magic, so no.

All magic item creation in D&D requires spending XP to create an item, all we've done is made it so that it doesn't necessarily have to be the caster's XP.

It seems a bit simplistic of an answer because the schools of magic are things devised by mortal scholars and wizards so I could see them relabeling the process that gets the +2 sword to make it more palatable for paladins and adventurers. It would really depend wholly on the process enchanting goes through and from going off what I've seen it does the following:

Transfer some ambiguous substance (exp) from one person to an item.

Person ends up weaker afterwards, not dissimilar to effects like level drain but more lasting.

[ThePwush]

Aren't some healing spells part of the necromancy school? So wouldn't, under the logic presented here, mean that priests would also have to be charged with necromancy?

Also, looking over the description of necromancy spells via the NWN wikia, the impression and descriptions deal with life force, not souls, per say.  An argument could be made, in this setting, that souls and life-forces aren't inexorably linked.  It may be possible to have one without the other i.e. undead or constructs. 

So my question, under this reasoning, would be if souls are considered exclusively part of the life-force in the Ravenloft setting? If so, then I could see an argument for enchanting and necromancy perhaps being linked. But if the answer is that they may be separated, then perhaps, soul affecting magic may actually be considered part of another school altogether? 

Mind you, I'm not really that versed in the magic-inspired mechanics of the game, so if I'm off the rails, forgive my opinion.  

PS:  If someone is going to charge someone with necromancy for enchanting, I reaaaallllyyyy want in for the defense on this one. LOL. I call dibs. LOL.

[FinalHeaven]

Guys I think the point is it is supposed to be found out in-character, if it can be found out at all.  But logically, it is very clearly not considered necromancy by the authorities and those in charge of governing the country it is in or it wouldn't be available for use in a reputed academy in said country.

No one knows what it does, that is the lore behind it.  So people are free to interpret that how they'd like ICly.  If someone truly believes it sucks out your soul then that is their prerogative but you aren't forced to believe them or roleplay a certain way because of their belief.

[Bluebomber4evr]

Enchantment and necromancy are two different schools of magic, so no.

All magic item creation in D&D requires spending XP to create an item, all we've done is made it so that it doesn't necessarily have to be the caster's XP.

It seems a bit simplistic of an answer because the schools of magic are things devised by mortal scholars and wizards so I could see them relabeling the process that gets the +2 sword to make it more palatable for paladins and adventurers. It would really depend wholly on the process enchanting goes through and from going off what I've seen it does the following:

Transfer some ambiguous substance (exp) from one person to an item.

Person ends up weaker afterwards, not dissimilar to effects like level drain but more lasting.

It's not necromancy

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#prerequisites

It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.

If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.

XP is the accumulation of knowledge, power and experience your character has. By spending XP to make an item, you are essentially imbuing it with a part of yourself. This isn't really your soul (and necromancy is more about the manipulation of death, undeath, and the life force rather than souls) and the process is the same for all schools of magic, from necromancy to enchantment to transmutation to divination and so on.

[McNastea]

To be honest, as a dev, I have way too much fun to watch these in-game debates, so I will not be the one who would give you an OOC anwser that would ruin it all. The bottom line is that the answer to your question is not even important OOCly. Roleplay it out. Take part in the in-game debates and have your characters make an opinion for themselves. It will be a far more rewarding process than knowing an OOC answer that might stymied your creativity and how you RP around it.

I do generally agree with you.

But just to make sure I get it correct if someone is rping that the enchantment process Literally drains the soul of someone, not their belief but rping that is actually what happens, is cheesing right?

thanks for the responses so far.

I don't really understand how you can cheese a belief. What your character says, says is happening, or believes is happening, can always be wrong. There's no discernible difference ic between someone believing and rping that that is what's happening. All they can do is act do and say things that would indicate it, but the only thing they are rping is themselves and how they react so-what's the difference? The only way you could know is if you started chatting ooc about it and that would be pointless anyway, who cares if someone ooc believes that, they're still wrong ic and haven't actually cheesed anything.

[Norture]

The cheese part is in what people are emoting is happening. It's like if you start smithing, and emote [holds a fireball in his hand and forges the sword using his hands]. That's not what's actually going on.

But yeah, if people want to believe something or discuss something, they can.

[ThePwush]

The interesting part is, as pointed out several times, it's not necromancy but yet someone in-game may still pursue it as such, causing a ruckus.  So in-game, this may turn into a really interesting debate if the right situation occurred. 

[Yamatona]

I'd say the main part of necromancy that is banned would be the act of raising the dead. This is because undead can potentially break free of their master's control (according to pnp and lore, but not represented in game mechanics). Furthermore, the act of creating an undead can be seen as a desecration of the dead, which, in itself, can potentially be a serious crime. Certain necromatic spells, such as "Undeath to Death," are not at all forbidden due to the effects they have. Since the act of enchanting is concentual on ALL ends, I would argue that even if it is a form of necromancy, it would fall under exceptions to the law.

[Bluebomber4evr]

I'd say the main part of necromancy that is banned would be the act of raising the dead. This is because undead can potentially break free of their master's control (according to pnp and lore, but not represented in game mechanics). Furthermore, the act of creating an undead can be seen as a desecration of the dead, which, in itself, can potentially be a serious crime. Certain necromatic spells, such as "Undeath to Death," are not at all forbidden due to the effects they have. Since the act of enchanting is concentual on ALL ends, I would argue that even if it is a form of necromancy, it would fall under exceptions to the law.

Well that, and many necromancy spells actively harm or even outright kill people.