Author Topic: New herbalism potions  (Read 20182 times)

Bad_Bud

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 4576
Re: New herbalism potions
« Reply #75 on: October 19, 2015, 04:21:57 PM »
There is a matter of inventory space, and in that regard a potion that heals ten times the amount is much more effective to carry and use. You also presume, for some reason, that only casters are herbalists.

Syl

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2592
Re: New herbalism potions
« Reply #76 on: October 19, 2015, 04:25:18 PM »
thats like saying only rogues and druids are Leather workers and fighters are smiths...hehehe SO stereotypical

Monica O'Sullivan: Master explorer
Tsubaki Yamamoto: Shadow Thief
Roesor Cryso: A slave for the Masters.
Sokol: An Unlikely Hero

Merry Munchkin

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 934
Re: New herbalism potions
« Reply #77 on: October 19, 2015, 04:40:52 PM »
MAB is right there. It's a matter of balance at this point. When I added the Scarab Caps to Har'Akir, I made sure to make them super rare and scattered so that people couldn't make unlimited Raise Dead potions. As far as I know, no one has stacked Raise Dead potions.

I had Burleigh up to lvl 30 in herbalism, and after extensive trips to the desert specifically to hunt scarab cap, I think the most I ever had at one time was 4 or 5 raise dead potions.  By that point, it was just as easy to buy mist globes, as I had a lot of gold in the bank.


Burleigh Burrowell - RIP

EO

  • Assistant Head DM/Developer
  • Head DMs
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 22399
  • The one and only, the one everyone wants to be!
Re: New herbalism potions
« Reply #78 on: October 19, 2015, 04:44:47 PM »
Quote
I had Burleigh up to lvl 30 in herbalism, and after extensive trips to the desert specifically to hunt scarab cap, I think the most I ever had at one time was 4 or 5 raise dead potions.  By that point, it was just as easy to buy mist globes, as I had a lot of gold in the bank.

Yup, so it's definitely possible to bring in powerful things yet make them rare. I mean, we have the 1% Treasury for that too. Introduce more powerful items but keep them super rare.

TheGrinningHound

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 521
  • That's Mr. TheGrinningHound to you
Re: New herbalism potions
« Reply #79 on: October 19, 2015, 04:48:36 PM »
..Ooh, haha. Well-- if Heal is going to be modified, and we don't know how yet, we're in no position to adequately judge what this herbalism change is actually doing in the first place. It's like debating about the dangers of what could be inside a cardboard box, when we have no idea what's actually inside.

My original opinion was based on the potential prevalence of vanilla heal potions that could come out of them being craftable, all within the framework of current NWN mechanics. The Hak update offers a huge potential for shifts in PoTM's balance, so we should all reserve our opinions of balance until the Hak actually comes out.

The only thing that can be taken from this thread is that the introduction of craftable, powerful healing devices frightens enough (but not all) players that it's caused this much of a reaction. So that should say something about how PoTM players enjoy their combat experiences.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2015, 04:53:18 PM by TheGrinningHound »

Satyricon

  • Outlander
  • **
  • Posts: 64
Re: New herbalism potions
« Reply #80 on: October 19, 2015, 04:54:40 PM »
Gah.. I can't be only one in love with all these new potions? :P

I really like the full heal potions and their new recipe requiring 2 instead of just 1 herb each may be a little more balanced, yes. I believe they are good as they are now!!

EO

  • Assistant Head DM/Developer
  • Head DMs
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 22399
  • The one and only, the one everyone wants to be!
Re: New herbalism potions
« Reply #81 on: October 19, 2015, 04:57:14 PM »
..Ooh, haha. Well-- if Heal is going to be modified, and we don't know how yet, we're in no position to adequately judge what this herbalism change is actually doing in the first place. It's like debating about the dangers of what could be inside a cardboard box, when we have no idea what's actually inside.

My original opinion was based on the potential prevalence of vanilla heal potions that could come out of them being craftable, all within the framework of current NWN mechanics. The Hak update offers a huge potential for shifts in PoTM's balance, so we should all reserve our opinions of balance until the Hak actually comes out.

The only thing that can be taken from this thread is that the introduction of craftable, powerful healing devices frightens enough (but not all) players that it's caused this much of a reaction. So that should say something about how PoTM players enjoy their combat experiences.

Fyi; Heal will be closer to its 3.5 counterpart. It will now heal a flat 10HP per caster level, so it'll be a lot less powerful. I think currently the potions are set at a caster level 10, so right now it'd be 100HP healing.

herkles

  • Society of the Erudite
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 7310
Re: New herbalism potions
« Reply #82 on: October 19, 2015, 05:07:29 PM »
..Ooh, haha. Well-- if Heal is going to be modified, and we don't know how yet, we're in no position to adequately judge what this herbalism change is actually doing in the first place. It's like debating about the dangers of what could be inside a cardboard box, when we have no idea what's actually inside.

My original opinion was based on the potential prevalence of vanilla heal potions that could come out of them being craftable, all within the framework of current NWN mechanics. The Hak update offers a huge potential for shifts in PoTM's balance, so we should all reserve our opinions of balance until the Hak actually comes out.

The only thing that can be taken from this thread is that the introduction of craftable, powerful healing devices frightens enough (but not all) players that it's caused this much of a reaction. So that should say something about how PoTM players enjoy their combat experiences.

Fyi; Heal will be closer to its 3.5 counterpart. It will now heal a flat 10HP per caster level, so it'll be a lot less powerful. I think currently the potions are set at a caster level 10, so right now it'd be 100HP healing.
I think that is a lot better, its not the full life heal that well vanilla heal is; at least I think that it is.


Side-note: when is the hak pack coming? :)


TheGrinningHound

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 521
  • That's Mr. TheGrinningHound to you
Re: New herbalism potions
« Reply #83 on: October 19, 2015, 05:08:33 PM »
Yeah, that's much more reasonable, then. It's not that hard for a pair of similarly leveled characters to gang up and pump out more than 100 damage a round to a potion drinker.

Consider me satisfied! :D

Merry Munchkin

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 934
Re: New herbalism potions
« Reply #84 on: October 19, 2015, 05:10:31 PM »
So what you are saying, Tycat, is that they have spent time and resources to make some thing which is only for a few people? My point is to some extent proved...
no I am not. I am being very clear with what I am saying. Make it hard, give incentive to go someplace deadly. Don't knock it til its tried.

I see your point, and definitely don't want to be a party pooper, but I think the concerns about game balance are real and justified.  I will use my characters as examples.  Burleigh (and soon Jammie) maxed out in herbalism.  Between that and their ability to use scrolls via UMD, they are capable of soloing areas that PCs probably shouldn't (although I don't attempt this) with the only limitation being the amount of gold and time needed to get the potions and scrolls to self buff.  

I think that game-mechanisms that allow players greater independence from each other should be disfavored and avoided.  There is likely a happy medium in here somewhere, but I am afraid that I think the line has been crossed with these potions.

As a simple thought experiment, imagine a world where every possible spell could be crafted as a potion - I think everyone would agree that this would be unacceptable.  Now scale back the experiment by asking yourself which spells would you remove in order to maintain balance.  At some point, by the process of subtraction, you will get to a consensus point - personally, I think that lvl 4 spells are probably the logical cut off for non-casters to be able to cast without UMD, with true seeing and raise dead (as currently set up) as reasonable exceptions.  I cannot see a good reason for allowing level 5 or higher, but I am open to hearing reasons why I might be wrong.


Burleigh Burrowell - RIP

MAB77

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 6422
Re: New herbalism potions
« Reply #85 on: October 19, 2015, 05:28:50 PM »
How will Heal be adjusted btw?

The details are still being worked on. It will remain quite a potent and useful spell, but more in line with the way other cure wound spells are working instead of flatly healing all damages.
Best Regards!
MAB

Dev. Relationist for the Dark Powers.
1 Castle Road, Castle Ravenloft, Village of Barovia.

Time_Stomped

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 338
Re: New herbalism potions
« Reply #86 on: October 19, 2015, 08:34:17 PM »
Well, someone who gathers and crafts consumables many times over someone who doesn't; is probably going to be many times slightly more powerful.  I've seen plenty of cases where strong potions would be needed in very dangerous non-sithicus areas.

Of course this is the server where people thought my level 3 native was a high level PC due to the fact of him simply being too beefy in the name of the count. ;)
Istavan Donner

dark_majico

  • Guest
Re: New herbalism potions
« Reply #87 on: October 20, 2015, 08:46:11 AM »
why not have penaltiies applied to using them like say -3 int loss? or perhaps slow movements(as you become drunk due to all that potions you are addicted to)

Addiction to Heal Potions that's an interesting idea, anything less than a Heal Potion could be left out of the system, or the % of addiction to the lesser potions could be minuscule so the chances of this affecting anyone would be negligible. The percentage chance rising with each potion drank within X amount of time of the last Heal Potion could be key to preventing people spamming a ridiculous amount of Heals Potions.  I wonder how practical this would be to script and would it be laggy? Scripters please amuse us with your ideas on this even if a decision is made not to implement this it would be cool to know.

Delete Me

  • Bah humbug
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 683
Re: New herbalism potions
« Reply #88 on: October 20, 2015, 09:34:17 AM »
I think there should be no modification to the heal spell, and that the potions should be removed. Amia was a damn nightmare due to the availability of potions. It removes both the sense of danger, or risk, from virtually anything. If it was modified, I would suggest 10hp per caster level, but casting heAL has its own risk. . Everything tries to hit you, you can be disrupted, etc. Potions are just chug away. I do not like the potions, or modifications to the spell, but hey.. I'll stay frosty.
Delete Me.

EO

  • Assistant Head DM/Developer
  • Head DMs
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 22399
  • The one and only, the one everyone wants to be!
Re: New herbalism potions
« Reply #89 on: October 20, 2015, 09:39:16 AM »
I think there should be no modification to the heal spell, and that the potions should be removed. Amia was a damn nightmare due to the availability of potions. It removes both the sense of danger, or risk, from virtually anything. If it was modified, I would suggest 10hp per caster level, but casting heAL has its own risk. . Everything tries to hit you, you can be disrupted, etc. Potions are just chug away. I do not like the potions, or modifications to the spell, but hey.. I'll stay frosty.

The decision to tweak the Heal spell wasn't related to the decision to add Heal potions. I think though that with the newer version of Heal (10HP per level), the potions will be a lot more balanced.

Delete Me

  • Bah humbug
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 683
Re: New herbalism potions
« Reply #90 on: October 20, 2015, 09:45:20 AM »
I believe greater restoration should not be modified or available in consumable form, in any fashion though.
Delete Me.

EO

  • Assistant Head DM/Developer
  • Head DMs
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 22399
  • The one and only, the one everyone wants to be!
Re: New herbalism potions
« Reply #91 on: October 20, 2015, 10:12:52 AM »
I believe greater restoration should not be modified or available in consumable form, in any fashion though.

Soren confirmed it was pulled as a potion.

Crimson Shuriken

  • Happy Shoulders
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1025
  • Flying through the air with deadly intent!
Re: New herbalism potions
« Reply #92 on: October 20, 2015, 12:27:34 PM »
The decision to tweak the Heal spell wasn't related to the decision to add Heal potions. I think though that with the newer version of Heal (10HP per level), the potions will be a lot more balanced.
Awesome news I think, in general.


I'm so casual, my shoes look like feet.

DrXavierTColtrane

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 737
Re: New herbalism potions
« Reply #93 on: October 23, 2015, 01:34:57 AM »
There is a matter of inventory space, and in that regard a potion that heals ten times the amount is much more effective to carry and use. You also presume, for some reason, that only casters are herbalists.

I don't know how you read that presumption into my comments. My herbalist monk is not a caster, so I would hardly presume such a thing.

As for the inventory advantage, 10 times? If these potions are going to be capped at 100 hp, that's not  a 10 times advantage over a critical wounds potion. Potions aren't that heavy, and they're stackable. I'm sure I've had 200 on me at times. For that matter, the components of a 4-herb potion are heavier than those of a 1-herb potion and are only "sort of" stackable (you have to go through the bagging process). So if people are farming and brewing complex potions, they'll tend to be *more* encumbered than those brewing simple potions--until they can hit the cauldron.
For everything that's lovely is
But a brief, dreamy, kind delight.

--GlamRock--

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 261
Re: New herbalism potions
« Reply #94 on: November 02, 2015, 08:44:19 AM »
As I understood herbalism is work in progress. I have just noticed a few unbalanced things. One is related to the lack of alternatives to spring verpa for other abilities, for instance. Not sure if I wasn't able to find them. Another to the co-presence in high level areas of old herbs, since they are not mixable with the new ones maybe they should be lessened in the chance they spawn. Last there will be the need for some tweak in some DC for some potions: if DC of things such as deathward have been raised, maybe also others should be raised (an example, speed potion). Finally, for some recipes there is still no equivalent with new herbs.
https://www.facebook.com/CiaranII

(Being drunk partially legitimates you as a philosopher - someone you wouldn't expect!)

Merry Munchkin

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 934
Re: New herbalism potions
« Reply #95 on: November 02, 2015, 03:12:37 PM »
I think the new herbs and recipes are great.  I noted a few suggestions however - the herb that makes restoration potions is too plentiful, because it seems to be more prevalent than the grey puffballs that are the lynchpin of the original recipe.  Also, the AI for one of the herbs should be tweaked to make it more aggressive - it was running away from me, and it really should be more assertive on its own defense.


Burleigh Burrowell - RIP

EO

  • Assistant Head DM/Developer
  • Head DMs
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 22399
  • The one and only, the one everyone wants to be!
Re: New herbalism potions
« Reply #96 on: November 02, 2015, 03:43:45 PM »
As I understood herbalism is work in progress. I have just noticed a few unbalanced things. One is related to the lack of alternatives to spring verpa for other abilities, for instance. Not sure if I wasn't able to find them. Another to the co-presence in high level areas of old herbs, since they are not mixable with the new ones maybe they should be lessened in the chance they spawn. Last there will be the need for some tweak in some DC for some potions: if DC of things such as deathward have been raised, maybe also others should be raised (an example, speed potion). Finally, for some recipes there is still no equivalent with new herbs.

Yeah, it's a work in progress. We're about 25% through adding all the new herbs, so quite a few higher level herbs are not in yet. Eventually all herbs will follow more or less the same system as the curative ones we implemented recently.