Author Topic: Warding Gesture  (Read 2075 times)

LawfulJoe

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Warding Gesture
« on: October 13, 2015, 03:44:33 PM »
Yes I am back... (We all eventually come back, no one escapes the mists) and I thought I would start with a fresh Character. I made a Barovian, and in the creation process, one of the feats I took was warding gesture. I thought it appropriate for a local, but I used it last night and it has a spell effect attached to it. Aesthetically... not good for a Barovian to use magic. Might this be something that could be removed, since it is not technically magic, just a belief in a gesture that will ward off... X monster (I picked undead, again, thought it appropriate).

Just a suggestion.

Thanks,
LawfulJoe

dark_majico

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Re: Warding Gesture
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2015, 05:23:54 PM »
Ive never used it before so I don't know what it looks like, but the animation for casting a spell (either one) with no visual would work well, that is what you meant right?
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LawfulJoe

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Re: Warding Gesture
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2015, 12:46:17 AM »
Ive never used it before so I don't know what it looks like, but the animation for casting a spell (either one) with no visual would work well, that is what you meant right?
exactly, and no chanting either, just a "gesture". Right now there is chanting and some spark fx like casting light. totally inappropriate for a barovian to do.

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Re: Warding Gesture
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2015, 05:09:28 PM »
I'll remove the VFX. Thanks for bringing this up.

Ercvadasz

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Re: Warding Gesture
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2015, 07:37:15 PM »
Actually if possible I would suggest to increase the number of gestures.
As currently the system works, is that you get 3 gestures between rests.
(Separatly for every gesture you took!)
However as the effect lasts for a very short time as in like 20 seconds at best?
This actually restricts it's effective useage greatly.
So i would suggest an increase of gesture levels for every 5 levels of the character. (and perhaps a round extension of the effect for every 3 levels?)
It would not offer such a great bonus, but actually would make the feat a bit more usefull, since many creatures have heir raised saves, it is quite common that the creatures against whom you employ this feat WILL make their save rolls, and even when they dont, it is enough for just 1-2 to make, and the others will or may return before you are able to defeat them, or get away.
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Time_Stomped

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Re: Warding Gesture
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2015, 09:09:20 PM »
Unless you have a high CHA, then it's a devastating cone of terror.  It can be used in PvP against monsters, after all.  It is a lot for one feat that can be taken on multiple characters and is underrated.
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dark_majico

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Re: Warding Gesture
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2015, 11:38:26 AM »
Actually if possible I would suggest to increase the number of gestures.
As currently the system works, is that you get 3 gestures between rests.
(Separatly for every gesture you took!)
However as the effect lasts for a very short time as in like 20 seconds at best?
This actually restricts it's effective useage greatly.
So i would suggest an increase of gesture levels for every 5 levels of the character. (and perhaps a round extension of the effect for every 3 levels?)
It would not offer such a great bonus, but actually would make the feat a bit more usefull, since many creatures have heir raised saves, it is quite common that the creatures against whom you employ this feat WILL make their save rolls, and even when they dont, it is enough for just 1-2 to make, and the others will or may return before you are able to defeat them, or get away.

What your proposing is turning it into the equivalent to either a magic spell or a super natural ability, it's supposed to be a superstitious gesture with some minor use, 20 seconds (roughly) is more than enough to make a run for it, prepare a spell, drink a potion of cowardice/invisibility. It's supposed to give you a slight edge, it's not supposed to be a get out of jail free card that grows in power as you level up. It makes sense that a hostile is supposed to have a good chance of making the will save you can't expect this to work on all things, the fact that this works on some things with more hit die than a Gremishka makes us very fortunate as it is.
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Ercvadasz

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Re: Warding Gesture
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2015, 05:52:39 AM »
I know how it works and how it was intended to work.
However, if you would use it against certain creatures, it would just not work appropriatly. As there are creatures among those that are as to say hasted permanently. So thus they wonder around, flee from you, but you will NOT have enough time with the 20 seconds to run away. I know this because it has happened allready, not to mention that often even the creatures that are turned or if the warding gesture was used on them, will still attack you.

@dark_majico
Also you can only use spells, potions etc. to escape if the gesture works on all the enemies. As in there is not a single creature among them that does not fail the save. Sadly this is often not the case.

I also know that this is quite the RP tool that can be used greatly.

But! The gesture has quite the prerequisites, as it requires the character who wishes to employ it to have a wisdom score and a charisma score of at least 11.
For a number of classes to raise these attributes to the required level will not make much sense.
What you stated actually is why that taking this feat over others along with the prerequisites is the main reason why many classes will not take this feat or consider it usefull.
It is why i offered these suggestions to improve it slightly.
However it is possible that i again confused the turn and round in NWN system.
I meant that for every 3 level the duration of the gesture should increase by 6 seconds. Perhaps every 4 levels or 6 or 7?

It would not offer such a great bonus to the feat, it would still make it the way as it was intended, however it would offer some growth along with the character development.
As a character grows (in levels), i allways assume and like to think that the characters devotion and ambitions and faith grow, they become more dedicated and thus this feat could represent this in such a minor way.

Actually i would say the warding gesture feat is more akin to favoured enemy in comparision.

So all in all i think that giving an extra use per ever 5, 6, 7 or 10 levels, would still not be that great of a bonus. As the DC with which you employ the WARD grows fairly low with most classes. (My cleric reached his limit where it will only grow with his level, and it is barely over 20!)
The same applies with extending the duration of the ward by 6 seconds for every 3-4 levels. All in all with a level 20 character your ward would still make the enemies be chased away for less than a minute, perhaps even less than 55 seconds!

With every 6 levels +1 and every 4 levels +6 seconds on say level 18 you would have 6 wards, which each last for 44 seconds. With this you would have some minor(! since their saves will likely be high!) chance with your character to ward against things with 23-25 DC (depending on your cha bonus). Which i think is NOT that high, not that powerfull. You would likely need to employ several wards to have a chance to make an opening to get away for you and your party. (With my cleric I allmost never solo, and actually warding gesture usually is the way with which i could open up a path of escape, if the undead are that high of level, since even with sun domain there are creatures you cannot turn)
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Time_Stomped

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Re: Warding Gesture
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2015, 07:36:11 AM »
...if the undead are that high of level, since even with sun domain there are creatures you cannot turn

Not with that attitude you're not!  Sun / Warding is quite fine when specializing in it.
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Ercvadasz

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Re: Warding Gesture
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2015, 08:42:44 AM »
...if the undead are that high of level, since even with sun domain there are creatures you cannot turn

Not with that attitude you're not!  Sun / Warding is quite fine when specializing in it.

Warding gesture IS NOT affected by Sun Domains turn bonus though, nor by improved turning.
And my character has 15 cha, with emp he can get to 22, and that is still not enough most of the time, to turn a single creature or make any single creature flee from gesture.
So if i would continue my previous example on level 18 he would have 6 warding gestures with 25 DC vs appropriate level creatures, i doubt they would even offer a decent chance. (as in around that level range i would guess, as i never made it that far, creatures would have a will save of at least 14)

If you make such claims then please be as kind as to offer feedback without generalisation that what MIGHT one do wrong.
Because it is not hard to slam a debate with claims like:
No.
You are doing it wrong.
etc.

So please offer something with which I can continue to add to the debate or with which i can go on to provide my or different oppinion(s).
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 08:46:00 AM by Ercvadasz »
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Time_Stomped

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Re: Warding Gesture
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2015, 08:52:05 AM »
15 cha is hardly optimal for W.G., yet alone a sun clerc that is going to be based on power turning.
Istavan Donner

Syl

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Re: Warding Gesture
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2015, 09:28:25 AM »
Quote
But! The gesture has quite the prerequisites, as it requires the character who wishes to employ it to have a wisdom score and a charisma score of at least 11.
For a number of classes to raise these attributes to the required level will not make much sense.
What you stated actually is why that taking this feat over others along with the prerequisites is the main reason why many classes will not take this feat or consider it useful.

It is hard to say whether or not the stats for the class makes sense or not.. Anyone can place their stats however.. Like my Thief will have a 16 wisdom why you ask? because she will have stunning fists..

A person will build their class however they like and I have seen some folks walk around with WG, It's not going to save you from the extremely high levels But it can help protect you from the low stuff... and some even have it for RP reasons.

I think WG is fine the way it is.. Grant it I haven't used it.. But I've seen it used.

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EO

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Re: Warding Gesture
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2015, 09:52:16 AM »
Fyi, to get back to the original topic, I've removed the VFX/Sound effects of Warding Gesture. The changes will be implemented in our next hak update.