Familiar Balance

[EndOfTheLine]

There are custom familiars here and I don't know the stats and abilities of them all. From what I understand and have observed, there are familiars that could do with some balancing.

Improved Invisibility grants 50% concealment and that's a really-really useful buff. It makes me sad to see people just pop out a faerie dragon, have it cast imp invis and then instantly unsummon it again without any roleplay involved at all. It makes me feel that people just see these familiars as merely a means to cast a highly useful spell for free.

The vanilla nwn Pixie is a common culprit for this as well, being used as just a tool for dealing with traps/locks.

I've noticed that the worg familiar is very popular and although I don't know its stats, it seems to be a strong combatant familiar, however it is an evil creature and I get the impression that some people only pick it because they want a strong fighting familiar rather than because it suits their character concept.

If the benefits of the familiars were balanced well with each other then I expect that people would be more willing to pick their familiar based upon their character concept rather than what works best mechanically.

[Syl]

I have seen many casters RP with their familiars before they cast their summon's spell. What you have to keep in mind though is most go and control their familiars and have to control them to cast the spells.. with everyone talking around them the game kicks the master out of possession even when they talk with their own Familiar.
So most get tired of being kicked out when trying to cast a spell and just cast their summon magic.. wether they RP or not is up to the master. but i have known some Pixi's to like shiney gems for payment of having their dust put on people.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Worg
Worgs are also CN. not evil.

[EndOfTheLine]

The in game description for those familiars says that they're evil. I've never had one so I haven't been able to check their in game alignment. I assumed it was a change because of the setting, but if not, then it's an incorrect in game description.

[BahamutZ3RO]

There's more evil familiars than good ones in the Ravenloft setting. A lot of them are sentient and try and elbow their way into a mage's business and try to corrupt them from a position of trust. Nature of the demiplane.

That being said, the relative uselessness of all of the familiars and the cost of raising them if they die in combat makes the whole conversation kinda moot, a mage will almost always be better off using Shelgarn's Blade unless they've got an Assassin Imp.

I've always found the pixie/pseudodragon "free invis" thing tacky. Pick a familiar as an RP accessory, not to make your buffing slightly easier.

A lot of the evil familiars can be really fun, especially if your char isn't evil. Midnight cats are sentient, speak common, and will try to steal people's souls in their sleep. Gremishka can also speak many languages and are evil little pranksters. There's a lot of fun to be had, if people are willing to look beyond what's best for combat.

[DrXavierTColtrane]

Worgs are CN in NWN? I'd never noticed that before, but in the original D&D monster manual they were neutral evil.

I assume they are from Tolkien's wargs, with the spelling change via the same route as Balrog - Balor (to avoid copyright infringement). Wargs were definitely evil:

Wargs

Wargs were a particularly evil, demonic kind of wolf. They were intelligent and capable of speech, having their own language among their own kind. Wargs were vicious killers, but their weakness was their fear of fire....

Tolkien wrote that the word warg “is an old word for wolf, which also had the sense of an outlaw or hunted criminal.” The Old English wearg means “accursed one, outlaw, felon, criminal.” The Old Norse vargr means both “wolf” and “outlaw” and the Old High German warg means “evil-doer.”

http://www.councilofelrond.com/middle-earth/wolves-and-wargs-in-the-third-age/

I've never thought of them as chaotic either, but that's just me. Intelligent animals that run in hierarchical packs seem to me to be more lawful.

[Syl]

I love my midnight Cat!!... though... is it wrong to name it Black cat?

[EO]

I love my midnight Cat!!... though... is it wrong to name it Black cat?

Yeah, it remains a Midnight Cat...and it still likes stealing people's breath in their sleep.

[Tycat]

I love my midnight Cat!!... though... is it wrong to name it Black cat?

Nah. Blaise, when he had his cat familiar, it was "kitten", and his fairy is named "This!" becuase when she gets summoned he shouts "It's a this!" since he didn't know what she was for a long time.

A lot of people RP with their familiars, you can't generalize all casters into one box. I've seen a lot of characters designed around their familiars, some where their story was dependent on them.

[Syl]

I love my midnight Cat!!... though... is it wrong to name it Black cat?

Yeah, it remains a Midnight Cat...and it still likes stealing people's breath in their sleep.

Alrighty. Next level on my Wizard i can change it back to midnight Cat.. I just didn't know if that was allowed or not.. I didn't know if a Midnight cat looked any diffrent from just a black cat. since i didn't want people to just assume it was an evil thing without even trying to figure it out. I picked the Familiar since it is cool and like it for the RP.

[EO]

Alrighty. Next level on my Wizard i can change it back to midnight Cat.. I just didn't know if that was allowed or not.. I didn't know if a Midnight cat looked any diffrent from just a black cat. since i didn't want people to just assume it was an evil thing without even trying to figure it out. I picked the Familiar since it is cool and like it for the RP.

Mmm, I think you can still name him that so long as you don't cheese it to be a regular cat. The only odd thing would be its breath since they always have a misty breath. I've included the description from Denizens of Darkness as reference:

Spoiler: show

Midnight cats appear as inky black cats with luminous, yellow-green eyes. Regardless of the weather, their misty breath is always visible. They are both highly prized and feared for their power over curses. They are greedy and fickle creatures, and often adopt a "master," who is expected to see to their every desire. Midnight cars typically know at least one domain language, though they seldom deign to speak.

[Olywynn]

I love my midnight Cat!!... though... is it wrong to name it Black cat?

Yeah, it remains a Midnight Cat...and it still likes stealing people's breath in their sleep.

Alrighty. Next level on my Wizard i can change it back to midnight Cat.. I just didn't know if that was allowed or not.. I didn't know if a Midnight cat looked any diffrent from just a black cat. since i didn't want people to just assume it was an evil thing without even trying to figure it out. I picked the Familiar since it is cool and like it for the RP.

They have glowing pupilless eyes, and breathe mist.  They're not cute, they're unnerving, and anyone would be able to tell they're not natural felines.

[Syl]

I wont argue about the Midnight cat. I recived what i needed and tis all I needed.

[Jeebs]

Just to point out: you don't actually need to possess your familiar to have it speak/emote. There is a command for that on POTM. I believe it's @familiar but I could be mistaken. In either case, if you check your journal and go the commands section, it's listed in there along with the other commands.

[ladylena]

There is so much awesome stuff that can be done with ones familiar.. Back when I played Millie, if I got bored, I'd have her assassin imp harass her, it actually resulted in a dark power and some awesome dm stuff all from rping with my familiar. People do it more often! Even if it's just an emote like with the midnight cat going "It's eerie, luminous yellow eyes stare at you, while misty breath creeps from its maw." or something.. man I wish we had dread familiars!

[Syl]

Just to point out: you don't actually need to possess your familiar to have it speak/emote. There is a command for that on POTM. I believe it's @familiar but I could be mistaken. In either case, if you check your journal and go the commands section, it's listed in there along with the other commands.

That command is correct. and it does work, however it is more frustrating to control a familiar to cast a spell while you have six people around you RPing. to speak through your familiar correct. you do not need to control them as long as they are near you.

[EndOfTheLine]

I've always found the pixie/pseudodragon "free invis" thing tacky. Pick a familiar as an RP accessory, not to make your buffing slightly easier.

The conversation is somewhat moot if we look at familiars ability solely in battle, but some of them have extremely useful buff and utility abilities that make them unbalanced in my opinion even when they're kept out of the actual battle.

I can't really overstate how effective a 50% concealment is. When we compare that with Hellhounds fire breath for example: "Each enemy in the area of effect takes 1d4+1 fire damage". There's just no contest. I agree that the choice should be to pick a familiar as a RP accessory suitable for your character. The fault lies with the game just not being that well balanced. Why not just balance out the familiars and remove the temptation to pick what works best mechanically, or at least reduce it? If not, well you're giving a very real mechanical advantage to characters who just happen to suit having a faerie dragon over a character with a hellhound (for example). 100% balance is never going to happen, but the gap can be closed some. For example if the imp invis was changed to regular invis, it would still be a useful familiar without being overpowered in my opinion.

My character is not evil and she has a midnight cat to. It is fine as long as RP and character concept is the main motivation behind taking that familiar, rather than just to get mechanical benefits.

I would just like the mod team to take a look at it. If they honestly think that the familiars are balanced, then that's fine. I just don't think that some of them are.  

[BahamutZ3RO]

I've always found the pixie/pseudodragon "free invis" thing tacky. Pick a familiar as an RP accessory, not to make your buffing slightly easier.

The conversation is somewhat moot if we look at familiars ability solely in battle, but some of them have extremely useful utility abilities that make them unbalanced in my opinion even when they're kept out of battle.

I know, the comment wasn't a shot at you by any means. There are quite a few people who do summon their familiar once a rest, use it to buff, and then unsummon it and it's never seen again except in niche "i'm bored and want to make cutesy" moments. Honestly, improved invis isn't that big a deal in the grand scheme of things but I'd be fine with seeing all of the "op" familiars rebalanced, even though it's unlikely to happen. The topic has come up quite a few times in the past but IIRC changing stuff with familiars is a time and resource-consuming effort. I'unno, maybe the new hak will have something cool for 'em. Devs?

[IllusoryWitch]

The only really "hard" part about changing familiars,  is that you have to make 20 versions of each of them. With enough time, it's not difficult at all. You just have to understand the balancing of the game, and what sort of setting/level of ease/magic/what have you that you're committing to.  Improved Invisibility may not seem like a big thing, but when you're playing a Sorcerer , for example, and every spell choice matters, not having to choose one while instead having your familiar do it can 'break things' just a little bit more in your favor, especially if it is not being RP'd , or minimally so.

Again, Changing familiars is not inherently difficult. It's 20 creatures per, + edits to the 2da as necessary.  Then of course testing.

[Feronius]

I think the biggest imbalance with familiars and animal companions is still the fairly pricey raise dead cost.

I like using my familiars as an RP accessory, but nowadays I only get to do that during social scenes. Most of them have a small HP pool and will die in dungeons after only taking a single hit. Considering how they are just as expensive to bring back to life as actual player characters and notorious for not following commands well, it simply is not worth the risk.
There are of course a select few familiars that do hold their own or grant you out of combat buffs, but that alone is not a good enough reason to make me pick Tinkerbell as my familiar.

You can talk to me about the balance issues of individual familiars after this issue is fixed, until then I think I will stick to summons only.
Here's hoping the upcoming .hak updates will make the use of familiars (in combat scenarios, not just as RP accessories) more viable!

[Thundron]

What happened to eyeball familiar?