A Treatise on the Server Economy

[Arawn]

I'm not saying that people should be able to grind; I'm saying that it is false to say grinding is all that is required and the server is unrestricted.

I don't think anyone is saying that grinding is all that is required. I think multiple posts have been arguing exactly the opposite, that there are many ways to make money that aren't grinding, and so while grinding might be 'restricted,' making gold and XP definitely isn't.

[FinalHeaven]

"You want to be rich, spend a lot of time on the server."

This isn't what I'm saying at all, though.

Grinding dungeons is also not anywhere near the top of my list of ways for new players to make gold.  My whole point is that it is demonstratively far easier to make gold on the server then you appear to be making it out to be.  Is a new player likely to realize this fact immediately?  No, probably not.  But they will very quickly if they are paying attention or, well, just ask someone.  Time and effort doesn't need to immediately be assumed to be measured in a large quantity, all it means is someone has to be willing to actually choose to follow one of the money making options.  And quite frankly if they're not willing to do that then that is their choice, but they don't deserve to be catered to for it.  The only restriction here is one the player is placing on themselves.

  

[Tycat]

Also, I think a lot of us are refraining from posting the spoilers on how to make money easily because this is one of those things that is best found out in game, through RP, in character, and learned first hand.

[DrXavierTColtrane]

My whole point is that it is demonstratively far easier to make gold on the server then you appear to be making it out to be.

I think there is a lot of talking past one another going on as it appears DM Arawn and you both seem to think I've argued that gold is scarce whereas I've repeatedly said it is in over-supply (relative to goods characters want).

Once more, the only reason I mentioned that restrictions exist on how one accumulates gold is to show--that for the health of the server--the economy is controlled. It's not a laissez-faire model that rewards simple effort but rather rewards effort that the community (or community leadership) has deemed desirable.

herkles pointed out:

I think that one of the main issues is the fact that there isn't much beyond gear that people would use gold for in the game.

A big exception is the acquiring of crafting skills, which does remove a lot of surplus money.

Also, I don't want to quote Bentusi16's entire post 32, but it agrees with my experience.

Almost everything my character has ever bought in game seemed over-priced for its utility and was bought strictly for the interaction with the other character--with the exception of alchemical arrows. (I'm guessing that's because arrows are consumable, and so the supply and demand of them can reach a more accurate market equilibrium.)

I would rather the discussion not be at the micro, anecdotal level, however, because it then leads to zero-sum of what benefits which type of character. I'd prefer to keep it in terms of generally making money meaningful by having something (more things?) in the game players actually want to spend it on.

[DrXavierTColtrane]

Correction: Actually, I take that back. Crafted items in general are not over-priced and are probably too low, in fact, because crafters produce them in excess of what PCs can buy.

But I've not seen any crafted items that made my mouth water, either.

That doesn't mean they don't exist, of course.

[Arawn]

Once more, the only reason I mentioned that restrictions exist on how one accumulates gold is to show--that for the health of the server--the economy is controlled. It's not a laissez-faire model that rewards simple effort but rather rewards effort that the community (or community leadership) has deemed desirable.

How could it be any more laissez faire? The DMs and developers do not control prices, we do not attempt to add or remove significant capital from the game, we do not flood the market with commodities to force prices down--indeed, prices are dictated by what people are willing to pay. And, as we've all just pointed out, whatever restrictions might exist on grinding are fairly meaningless unless you think grinding is the only means of earning gold.

Nicholas, you've just turned on a dime from saying that the ability to make gold is restricted and limited to arguing that there's too much of the stuff. Or perhaps you're arguing that too much of the stuff is in the hands of more advanced characters? I think it's not entirely clear for what you're advocating here. Would you summarize, perhaps, how you'd suggest improving what you see as an untenable (or at least undesirable) situation? If anything, it seems like you're arguing for more control--and I don't think you realize just how little control there actually is.

You mention that items seem over-priced, to which I respond (somewhat flippantly, I'll admit), says you! Against what are we to judge these prices? Against the prices charged by NPCs? Honestly, unless you clarify a bit, it seems like you're reacting to things (specific things?) being too highly priced for you to purchase, which while certainly and understandably frustrating, hardly serves as proof that the entire economy is broken. You don't want the discussion to be anecdotal, but let's not argue in the abstract or general until we've established that the problem you're seeking to solve actually exists.

[FinalHeaven]

Once more, the only reason I mentioned that restrictions exist on how one accumulates gold is to show--that for the health of the server--the economy is controlled. It's not a laissez-faire model that rewards simple effort but rather rewards effort that the community (or community leadership) has deemed desirable.

But it's not controlled, and there is no evidence to suggest the server health suffers with how things are currently.  The displeasure of a handful of players over pricing is not an indication the server as a whole is suffering.  And, quite frankly, a number of the people who do complain about prices continue to buy things at the prices they  hate anyway, when they've acquired the coin.  This is the purest example of supply and demand and if the people who don't like the prices don't stop buying the goods anyway, why on earth should merchants consider changing their prices?  My main character even notes this IC, that people complain all the time about the Red Vardo pricing but at the end of they day they come buy our goods anyway.  Why?  Because we have them, and people want them.

If someone could actually provide some concrete evidence to show that there is a problem, there might be a real argument here.  As it is right now it just seems like people don't like high prices and for whatever reason feel entitled to a fair chance at getting nice items, even if they didn't work for them at all.  I understand the desire to have something nice but I don't understand the argument that merchants should be making efforts for no apparent reason at all to provide a fair economy for everyone.  Like I said earlier this is a roleplay server.  If people want change they should try and effect it IC.

[EO]

If someone could actually provide some concrete evidence to show that there is a problem, there might be a real argument here.  As it is right now it just seems like people don't like high prices and for whatever reason feel entitled to a fair chance at getting nice items, even if they didn't work for them at all.  I understand the desire to have something nice but I don't understand the argument that merchants should be making efforts for no apparent reason at all to provide a fair economy for everyone.  Like I said earlier this is a roleplay server.  If people want change they should try and effect it IC.

The only problem I see is how unrealistic these prices are and how they force DMs in events to give unrealistic rewards. It's not a balance issue but more of an immersion issue. Considering how poor Barovia is, some of these numbers make no sense.

There's no good way to stop that however, short of removing the ability to sell items to merchants and lower the amount of gold generated in dungeons. Our PW, like most PWs, has a completely unrealistic economy. There is an unlimited influx of new money being injected into the economy yet prices (except those of player merchants) never go up, wages never go up, etc. Not to mention how NPC merchants would probably not buy all this loot at the same price constantly. At the end of the day, the value of 1 gp would be less across the board; as it is, the only place where that inflation is felt is in PC merchanting since PC merchants can adjust their prices dynamically. That's why it hurts lower level characters since they tend to be more dependent on static sources of income (bounties, quests, deliveries, mink hunting, etc.) yet must buy goods at dynamic prices to PC merchants.

That being said, it's not a major issue. Most new players adjust and find dynamic sources of income (such as selling herbs or other crafting resources) and eventually start hitting up worthwhile dungeons. It's mostly an immersion problem.

[herkles]

I wonder what others think of the idea of instead of their being gold, there were actual currencies related to the different domains. Thus when you enter Dementlieu you exchange your wolf-fangs for Solars.

[Arawn]

I wonder what others think of the idea of instead of their being gold, there were actual currencies related to the different domains. Thus when you enter Dementlieu you exchange your wolf-fangs for Solars.

I'm not sure we'd gain anything from that other than wasting processor space on conversions. Gold is gold, and most medieval currencies traded by weight anyway.

[APorg]

Before you suggest radically changing this system, to which you have been exposed for less than six months, I think you should consider that we're doing something right, and that the developers have considered all aspects of our present situation very carefully.

This is an aside, but I think it's better to encourage beginners' enthusiasm for raising suggestions. One of the things I liked about this server when I first came here was precisely the fact that I was able to raise suggestions and some of them even got implemented (Vallaki doors closing at night? Yeah, that was me ) I think anybody should feel that their crazy suggestions are not merely tolerated but welcomed, whether they've been playing on PotM for 10 minutes or 10 years; after all, the developers can decide for themselves what to engage with and what to ignore, and if 1 idea in every 100 is good, that's better than none! And often it's newcomers who will have the fresh perspective.

[Arawn]

This is an aside, but I think it's better to encourage beginners' enthusiasm for raising suggestions. One of the things I liked about this server when I first came here was precisely the fact that I was able to raise suggestions and some of them even got implemented (Vallaki doors closing at night? Yeah, that was me ) I think anybody should feel that their crazy suggestions are not merely tolerated but welcomed, whether they've been playing on PotM for 10 minutes or 10 years; after all, the developers can decide for themselves what to engage with and what to ignore, and if 1 idea in every 100 is good, that's better than none! And often it's newcomers who will have the fresh perspective.

Certainly, and I hope the fact that we are all here engaging in this discussion is testament to our willingness to consider suggestions from the playerbase as to how to improve the module moving forward. But this argument has gone in circles a few times now, and I'm still not sure I understand what the problem is that we're trying to resolve. My objection was more to the suggestion that we would, with our experience, intentionally adopt a system if it were clear to us that this system actively discourages new players, which was suggested.

[Merry Munchkin]

Once more, the only reason I mentioned that restrictions exist on how one accumulates gold is to show--that for the health of the server--the economy is controlled. It's not a laissez-faire model that rewards simple effort but rather rewards effort that the community (or community leadership) has deemed desirable.

A server economy will NEVER be a laissez-faire model because of the simple fact that the module generates a never ending supply of money and goods -- in a real world economy, there are limits to how much money is in circulation, and there are finite limits on the quantity of goods that can be produced given a particular set of defined capital constraints.  

In the NWN economy, the issue is not a lack of gold or goods, but an infinite surplus of gold and goods.  As a consequence, the server must establish some mechanism by which gold can be depleted and goods can be consumed or destroyed.  Without such a mechanism, you end up with an infinite supply of items, and ever-growing bank accounts of gold.

This is a completely artificial economy that does not function according to normal rules of supply and demand, other than the possible exception of crafted consumables, like potions or ammunition.  If someone wants an Amulet of Mask (for example), they are subject to availability but if someone is patient enough, one will come along eventually at a merchant or PC seller, or you might find one yourself.  The server generates a never ending stream of them, for all practical purposes, and so you are in effect paying solely for the convenience of owning one NOW as opposed to LATER.

The same goes for XP.  The server generates a never-ending stream of replacement monsters, all in the same locations.  You can get XP by clearing out the same tomb or crypt over and over and over (believe me, we have all seen it happen).  The only truly unique way of getting XP is by RP, and that player interaction is constantly changing and usually pretty fresh (although I have been involved in some pretty inane conversations).

This is not unique to PoTM, but is true of every NWN server ever created.  Thus, from a builders' perspective, the real crisis is not whether there are sufficient ways to make gold or xp, but whether there are sufficient mechanisms in place to deplete the amount of gold and items in circulation, in order to avoid the accumulation of gold and items becoming irrelevant or superfluous.

[APorg]

This is a completely artificial economy that does not function according to normal rules of supply and demand, other than the possible exception of crafted consumables, like potions or ammunition.  If someone wants an Amulet of Mask (for example), they are subject to availability but if someone is patient enough, one will come along eventually at a merchant or PC seller, or you might find one yourself.  The server generates a never ending stream of them, for all practical purposes, and so you are in effect paying solely for the convenience of owning one NOW as opposed to LATER.

Well said.

Although it's actually really hard to create mechanisms to drain gold out of circulation effectively, since if you're too draconian you end up hurting new PCs disproportionately. The biggest drain is probably bank fees.

[Knas]

The idea has always been that gold should be hard to lug around, what with the death penalty. I do realize though that the emphasis on partying up and it being considered poor ooc etiquette by many to steal the gold of a dead PC makes it kind of moot as you'll rarely experience the gold drop.

#1 problem as I see it is that the server needs to work for everyone. Players who play with little MP interaction need to have access to gold, while at the same time people who want to play 8+ hours in big parties can't get capped out of gaining anything while they're playing. So in the end the more active player is going to get a lot more gold. Any punishment introduced seem to serve to punish players in both ends, and that will be a lot worse for the player with little gold than the one with a lot. Even if we were to say lose 10% gold upon death, the player with only 1000GP would feel it a lot more than the one with 10 000. 

I'd love some sort of system where gold could be sunk into factions or world related progress such as raising temples or guild houses, giving the high end gold hogs something to progress towards. But this might not work so well in the setting. 

In the end the only thing I can suggest is that those who like to farm or play merchants try their best not to create a bigger inflation, as it hurts everyone.

[DrXavierTColtrane]

DM Arawn

Nicholas, you've just turned on a dime from saying that the ability to make gold is restricted and limited to arguing that there's too much of the stuff. Or perhaps you're arguing that too much of the stuff is in the hands of more advanced characters?

I think there is a language problem here with the idea of "restricted." I have always said gold is too plentiful relative to desired items.

Once more...

You asked me to list ways that accumulating gold and power are restricted on the server. A restriction is a limit, constraint, or prohibition. I listed examples of limits (experience cap, selling of crafted items to NPCs) and outright prohibitions (muling).

Compare global warming gases. Do you agree that there could be restrictions on the amount of such gases countries could emit, but at the same time there could be too much of those gases in the atmosphere?

The reason for my listing those limits is to point out to FinalHeaven that the server has an economy with certain goals and values in mind. Players are not told to make as much money as you want, however you want. Ergo, it makes sense from time to time to look at the economy and see whether existing constraints and limits are accomplishing those goals and promoting those values. Do they need to be tweaked?

If you are frustrated that the discussion seems to have "gone in circles" a few times now, then please don't ask a version of this same question again because I don't know how to make my answer any more clear:

1) Gold is plentiful.

2) But the server has restrictions to prevent players from making as much of it as they want.

#2 carries with it the implication that this topic is relevant to Game Balance.

Your mention of my being here six months was an ad hominem argument, by the way. Should I make a suggestion that would "radically change the system," then the more reasonably sound way of rebutting such a suggestion is to point out its flaws, rather than disparage the background of the person making it.  In point of fact, I welcome those with greater experience on the server than I to counter my perspective with their own and illustrate why mine is wrong.

Knas:

Even if we were to say lose 10% gold upon death, the player with only 1000GP would feel it a lot more than the one with 10 000.

In my opinion that would be much better than a straight-line increase in costs. The higher-level character not only has more gold, but dies less and has a much easier time making money later.

Someone in game (generously) gave my character 4,000 fang for nothing when I was low level. When Kenthelag expressed his gratitude, she said it was nothing because she could make that much "in five minutes."

One idea I threw out in the first post was 100 fang for every 1,000 XP the player has accumulated, or some other ratio. That would be a truly progressive rate and make death a bit more significant for high levels. That high levels have little fear of death is a recurrent complaint here, is it not?

[herkles]

I'd love some sort of system where gold could be sunk into factions or world related progress such as raising temples or guild houses, giving the high end gold hogs something to progress towards. But this might not work so well in the setting. 

Some ideas
  Player faction bases: These would function a lot like the penthouse of the Governor's hotel. What this would do is allow player factions that don't have a base to potentially have one. It would be expensive though, the idea being that you are all pitiching in for it.
 
  Businesses:  What I mean by this are more player run stuff. I recall ages ago, my old PC Denisa Salicka had a scribbing bussiness where she would make letters for others and help deliever them around town, be they the bell(which she also worked at) or the garda or even the vardo. This can also work for player run inns and taverns, let people run and manage them, not own them but let people get to do their own stuff. Not only would this help with the economy, due to circulating money more and better, but it would create a lot of rp.

  Non-gear stuff: buying more things besides gear, this relates to the above point. For instance buy a section of the paper to advertise your religion, your bussiness, your self. Perhaps buy a title in dementlieu. and so on.

[FinalHeaven]

I never said the economy shouldnt be looked at. What I said was that I dont agree with the problem that is trying to be presented, and that I dont agree someone should feel entitled to dictate prices on an item that they had no part in acquiring.  My ability to acquire or not acquire gold in no way effects anyone else's ability to acquire or not acquire gold. I do not believe that this is an ooc problem.  I believe there may be a valid ic way to effect change, but I dont agree the idea of fairness has any part in it.

Also, while we may not be told to accumulate as much wealth as we can any way we can that doesn't invalidate it as a legitimate ic choice, this being an RP server.

[DrXavierTColtrane]

FinalHeaven:

What I said was that I dont agree with the problem that is trying to be presented

Is this a correct statement of your position?

1) Gold is plentiful and easy to come by (I agree with you).

2) Prices on goods are high  (you called them "huge" and I agree with you).

3) That is not a problem.

#3 is the question this topic is trying to present and what I hope will be addressed. Moreover, if inflation is a problem, then how are some good ways of fixing it?

It is not my intention to dictate the price you can charge on an item or anything at all about your IC behavior. The price you can charge, however, is influenced by #1 and #2.

(As to affecting other players, if you are selling a pair of boots, say, for 200 fang, and I come right next to you and offer the same boots for 100 fang, have I not affected your ability to acquire gold? But in any case, I don't think this is a necessary point for the discussion at hand.)

herkles: Having more things to spend money on such as you listed would not only make money more valuable but enrich the game experience for everyone IMO.  Perhaps some of them--particularly the player-run ideas--could be implemented without adding too much to the burden of server staff.

[FinalHeaven]

My position is "yes" to 1, 2, and 3.  From an OOC standpoint. From an IC standpoint I would encourage individuals who don't like high prices to try and find a way to lower them in an IC manner.  But I feel I need to mention again that almost everyone I have seen complain about prices IC comes and buys the item they want anyway a few days later.  So I have to ask again, with this is mind, why would a merchant consider lowering their prices from an IC point of view?

I don't agree that OOC consideration should play a mandatory role in this.  There is absolutely no reason someone can't save up their gold to buy whatever item they want.  Even if 9 out of 10 merchants lowered their prices to what someone else deemed as reasonable, that 10th merchant is still entitled to sell his goods at whatever he wants. And when the 9 merchants run out of the desired item, I guarantee that 10th merchant will have his sold at the price he set. Because the demand is still there.

I'd like to mention that even though this is my position on the matter of inflation I would still love to see ways to invest gold purely for the sake of immersion.  I really like Knas' ideas, as an example. I simply don't agree with there being a legitimate problem at this current time.

[McNastea]

Assuming that this is in fact a problem, and I don't think it is personally, the answer could not just be for everyone to lower their prices. Besides the reasons that FinalHeaven has listed, simply lowering prices would actually make there be an even further surplus of gold. The solution would have to be something that caused merchants to need to lower their prices.

But I don't believe that's necessary. I said it in a post about this same thing a long time ago and I think Chuuch was trying to say the same thing as well; just because you think that x amount of gold is absurd doesn't mean it is. I think the problem in that case has more to do with your own inability to come to terms with that amount than the fact that it's actually immersion breaking. There are lots of things in real life that are unbelievably expensive, to the point that you literally can't wrap your head around those numbers-and that's what the richest people on this server represent-the people with inconceivable amounts of money. So the fact that some people have so much gold that you actually can't believe it to the point that you believe your immersion has been broken makes sense. But that doesn't mean you should let it, just realize that that's something you can very well believe in character-that you actually are flabbergasted that anyone could have that much or be willing to spend it so flippantly-much less on some boots or a cloak or whatever.

Sure, a cloak is not the same thing as a yacht. It doesn't have tons of pieces and it doesn't represent nearly as many hours of work put in to every bit of it. But keep in mind, that yacht isn't magical as fuck either. And there's more of them. So yeah, these rare and incredibly magical items don't have all those things that make a yacht crazy expensive-but I believe they have the fantasy world equivalent.

That's just my thinking anyway

[DrXavierTColtrane]

McNastea:

I would like to stick to defending positions I've actually staked out, and I have not said anyone needs to lower his or her prices.

I've not said high prices are immersion-breaking.

What I've said is inflation seems to be occurring on the server because of  the way the economy is structured (supply of fang out-stripping supply of desired items).

Such inflation inevitability impacts game balance. For example, prices that are fixed (ferry costs, death costs, NPC prices, any other server costs that remain constant) become less and less significant compared with prices that are fluid and adjust to the devalued Fang. Likewise, wages and rewards that are fixed become less and less valuable relative to those that adjust with inflation.

FinalHeaven has, in fact, supported this point by saying after you have been on the server for a while you know better than to waste your time with low-level quests.

I don't want to read back through the whole thread for the quote, but I believe someone mentioned that DMs also have to offer ever greater rewards to attract player interest.

Moreover, the inflation might be a boon to certain behaviors and penalize others. That also affects game balance, such as between players who can be on the server more hours than others or only at certain times.

To be clear, I'm not saying that players who are on 16 hours a day ought to be penalized versus those on 10 hours a week. But clearly if life becomes more and more difficult for players who are already marginal, then they are likely to drop out entirely.

I'm using the example only to illustrate that, while the price of something is simply a number, when the price goes up it does not affect everyone equally, and thus is relevant to game balance.

[FinalHeaven]

The thing about dms offering ever greater rewards though is that it very much depends on individual situations.  There is nothing wrong with someone turning down a job from a DM possessed NPC because the payout is much lower than what they consider acceptable. That's simply a case of how much your character believes their skills are worth and I don't think anyone should feel bad about that, its all IC.

The thing about fixed costs only becomes an issue if you believe there is in fact an inflation problem, though. If you don't care about the potential irrelevance of fixed costs, then there is once again not really an issue here.  Its only a problem if you allow it to ruin your immersion and quite frankly that is a personal choice for every player.

[McNastea]

McNastea:

I would like to stick to defending positions I've actually staked out, and I have not said anyone needs to lower his or her prices.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm addressing things that other people are talking about. When I use "you" I'm meaning anybody and everybody. I'm not having a conversation with only you, the poster, but the community as a whole.

[Merry Munchkin]

Players are not told to make as much money as you want, however you want.

I've never been told that, by anyone, but I certainly would never even imagine why such an instruction would ever be necessary.  I play whenever I want.  I play in the style I choose.  If I want to accumulate gold, I do.  If I don't feel like accumulating gold, I don't.  Pretty simple.

1) Gold is plentiful.

2) But the server has restrictions to prevent players from making as much of it as they want.

I agree with #1.  I disagree with #2.  I have never run into any restriction on accumulating gold.  There are some merchants that won't pay out more than a set amount for items, but that is not true for all merchants.  The xp gain restrictions have nothing to do with accumulating gold (in fact, you could be a low level or mid level character and still be quite rich).

In my opinion that would be much better than a straight-line increase in costs. The higher-level character not only has more gold, but dies less and has a much easier time making money later.

High level characters do not necessarily "die less" -- they adventure in more dangerous areas comensurate with their level, and therefore can die quite easily.  As a low level character first starting out, I actually died very little, because I was cautious and played in groups and played smart.  I actually die more often as a mid level because I take more risks than I did when I was a low level.  Also, as far as making money easier, I would also quibble with that -- I would clear out the Vallaki sewers and sell rat pelts, and gather up and sell everything I could get my hands on, and could end up clearing 1000-1200 gp a night as a low level.  Conversely, I've been in Har'Akir and gotten lower amounts.

Part of getting gold and xp on this server is simply getting used to the style of gameplay required -- once you realize how things work in this world, you can find profitable opportunities at every level.

One idea I threw out in the first post was 100 fang for every 1,000 XP the player has accumulated, or some other ratio. That would be a truly progressive rate and make death a bit more significant for high levels. That high levels have little fear of death is a recurrent complaint here, is it not?

Everyone has a healthy fear of death on this server, regardless of level, because it already does cost more for higher levels to get raised, even if they do it themselves (I stockpile diamonds for that very reason, just in case).  I don't see a need to increase any sort of "death penalty" on high levels, because (1) that is not a problem that needs a solution (high levels are not running around dying with impunity), and (2) it does not serve as a functional gold-sink to take gold out of the system.

A functional gold sink would be something like mandatory training costs to advance a level (I have played on several servers that implemented this, with much wailing and gnashing of teeth on the part of the playerbase I might add).  Storage costs and bank fees also function as a gold sink to take currency out of the system.


As I review this thread, I am struggling to identify a problem that requires a solution here -- at least a solution that is addressed by the suggestions being proffered.  The accumulation of gold is a problem every server struggles with, but that does not mean that there must be punitive solutions imposed on the playerbase.  The idea of "progressivity" you raised is just another way of saying "punish high level players", but I am not certain whether this is a solution so much as a bit of schadenfreude. 

I am all for finding creative ways to take excess gold out of the system, but I think the real solution is to find creative ways for the playerbase to spend its accumulated wealth IG, rather than have arbitrary penalties placed on those who have worked for months (and possibly years) to get to a high level.