A Treatise on the Server Economy

[APorg]

I know that DMs to intervene to suck gold out of the economy as and how they can (it's why some DMs are so keen on having PCs pay NPCs big bribes, perhaps; the lesson is, when you're a PC, don't be afraid to throw lots of gold at DM plots -- you're doing the server economy some good ); but of course as with any kind of DM involvement, it's ad hoc and at best a patch solution, not addressing the causes.

[FinalHeaven]

I guess my main point is that just like in real life you can effect change with your wallets. If enough people don't  like the price of an item then they should try and find like minded individuals and just not pay the price. Eventually, the price will drop. I change the prices in my RVT post all the time when an item isn't selling.

I also acknowledge its not "fair", but I would argue as well that it's not supposed to be.  Especially if you're playing the type of character that would take someone for all they have given the chance.

[Merry Munchkin]

What the examine tool says an item is worth is bunk, btw. I would not recommend using it too often; the best way to learn what something is worth is to listen to people as they wheel and deal and learn what people are willing to spend for it. Like any market, prices are dictated by supply and demand, not what NWN says an item property is worth.

 

Yup-yup.  I can't tell you how many times I have rejected lowball offers on an item I was selling because I knew there would eventually be several other players interested in it if I was patient enough; conversely, I have dumped a few items in my inventory for low, low prices on days I was not getting any interest and just wanted to get rid of it.

[McNastea]

To be perfectly honest, I feel like the stuff sold at "high end auctions" goes for considerably lower than it did when I started here. Admittedly that wasn't terribly long ago-maybe a year and a half ago or so. That's probably due to many of the things that people have already pointed out so I won't go in to it, I'm feeling a little too lazy to anyway 

We did have this discussion at great length a while back, and I'm sure it's been one of those topics that comes up again once or twice a year since.. well probably not long after the server was made-once players started getting that sort of wealth amassed and had nothing else to spend it on ever. That's of course the flaw in an economy where gold is created on the spot whenever a sale is made (to an npc). The only way to truly get rid of gold is by having a dm take it or buy things from an npc or to never spend it.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is I don't personally feel there's much of a problem. My first character figured out how to make gold and became even more wealthy than he is now before he hit level 10. I have other characters that are long past that point and are penniless. It's really about what sort of focus you have I guess-and don't be so quick to dismiss those cargo deliveries! You can make a ton of gold and still be very low lvl with pretty much no risk to yourself 

As for that hierophant business, as someone who has had people asking me to find them one for a long time now and watching their offers slowly rise-I believe it has to do with the initial percieved value of the item being one amount, then as more and more time goes by and it's still never found, these people become more and more willing to pay more and more in order to acquire it. The supply has exceeded the demand, and the price willing to be paid increases more and more. That's pretty solid economics if you ask me. The same thing happens with lots of items from my experience. And of course, most people's first offer is low balled. Not many people start at crazy high amounts, they try to get it as low as they can and slowly go up until they get it. I remember having an amulet a while back that was -very- rare and anyone who could use it was giving me silly small amounts as offers, but those increased more and more and eventually snowballed-I even had people angry with me for selling it once I got a deal I liked enough to trade it for; they were apparently willing to go far higher than they'd offered up to then. So really, I think the player driven economy works out pretty well like it should.

[APorg]

To be perfectly honest, I feel like the stuff sold at "high end auctions" goes for considerably lower than it did when I started here. Admittedly that wasn't terribly long ago-maybe a year and a half ago or so. That's probably due to many of the things that people have already pointed out so I won't go in to it, I'm feeling a little too lazy to anyway 

Actually I think moreso than Perfidus being cut off, one of the more major effects on the economy is simply how active players -- especially senior PCs -- are. If a merchant PC worth ten million gold or whatever is suddenly shelved, that's a major influence on the PC economy suddenly stopping -- with various effects that might drive, which may either drive demand down (if the merchant was a major buyer) or supply down (if the merchant was a major dungeoneer/looter).

Some of the highest-bidding auctions were between active merchant PCs throwing their weight around, after all.

[chuuch1]

There is a $65000 per night hotel in Geneva
There are cigars worth $1000 for one
Watches and other jewellery for 30 million
A Ferrari for 35 million
Two million dollar speaker systems
Silly paintings for hundreds of millions
Yachts worth billion
There is an iPhone that sells for 3 million
There are parking spots in Manhattan that sell for 1 million

I can keep going, point is stuff like these have ridiculous prices because supply is low, demand is high (amongst rich people) and they have money to spend. You and I can only imagine and dream about having money like this (like low lvl  characters) until we somehow strike it rich (like the higher levels). 

Why is it so hard to picture in ravenloft
300,000 for a ebon tiger belt, the Ferrari of rogue belts
500,000 for a vestments of faith cloak, the billon dollar yacht of cloaks

The person who bought the yacht didn't cry about the price until the seller lowered it because it is an obscene price.  The buyer went out there and earned the money to pay for it because he wanted it.

[DrXavierTColtrane]

I've refrained from commenting too much after starting this thread because I wanted it to spark other people to contribute their perspectives -- especially those who have a wider server experience than do I. Regarding comparisons to the real world, however:

Why is it so hard to picture in ravenloft
300,000 for a ebon tiger belt, the Ferrari of rogue belts
500,000 for a vestments of faith cloak, the billon dollar yacht of cloaks

...it's not hard to imagine at all. In June, Zimbabwe phased out its currency because it had reached the point where 35 quadrillion dollars were equal to 1 US dollar.

Inflation and currency devaluation, however, do not affect everyone the same. Those on fixed incomes--Social Security in the real world, a warehouse job in Ravenloft--are penalized, as are player savings. Those holding the goods in shortage benefit.

My main point does not disagree with yours: it's supply and demand. If an inflating economy is preferable, then the production of consumer goods should be kept below the increase of money in circulation. If a stable currency is desired, they should be roughly equal. (Over-production relative to money will result in deflation.)

It seems to me that current server mechanics tend toward inflation for the reasons outlined in my first post: essentially, money is flowing into the economy more quickly than desired goods.

[Bentusi16]

I think part of the problem is that there doesn't seem to be any sort of build up of items as far as how good it is.

I have a character who I wanted to make the uber-AC tank, he got all the steel type stuff for armor and shield, and...now what? A vast majority of things that drop simply aren't things he's going to need. Like, ever. He has his weaopns, he has his armor, and he's only level 4. The next big upgrade will probably be when he's past level 15 and tries to get gear enchanted.

I keep an eye on the Vardo trader stuff, and what other people are offering, and there's just nothing better then the steel armor that I've ever seen pop up, not that offers the same AC level. I don't spend money on food, and even if I did it's only like 20 GP for a stack of rations.

Same goes for shields. I mean there are shields that are like "+2 ac vs. shapeshifters", but that''s such a SPECIFIC thing, and that's weight, and I'm already weighed down by one set of gear that I can't afford to carry 'specialist' sets of gear. Even if I go to the warehouse, if I run into a different type of the monster, well crap I died, because my gear was designed for a specific thing. The closest I get is the morning stars, which I have three of, copper, silvered-steel, and a named anti-undead one. And even that is a pain the butt to deal with. Grab the wrong one? Oh watch you not do damage, and fiddle with throwing on the right weapon.

I cannot afford, on pretty much any level, not to go with the optimal gear for the character, and that sucks because it means I can't do RP gear. The featsf eed is somewhat nice because it means I can take feats that aren't optimum, for RP, like I took iron Will on my character to represent well his iron will, but gear wise? He's done. He's done until he starts enchanting, which won't be for another 10-15 levels.

[Syl]

I can say many things about the RL items mentioned and how thats rediculiously priced... and if you don't agree there has to be something wrong... THOSE things however... well some of them like the yatch is made so your paying for a craft.. hehe.. bad pun moment, But anyways thats something made by people with many parts in it... while still rediculously overpriced because they are aimed towards the -SELECT FEW- that have that kind of money to buy such a thing.

I'm kind of getting bothered as how people just over look the price like its a normal thing, so to prevent myself from saying anything rude and what not I am no longer going to comment on this page. If the name of the game is now. " Make as much gold as you posisble can and get rich game." So be it. I'll stick with my RP and dungeons here and there and hope for the best.

[chuuch1]

While still rediculously overpriced because they are aimed towards the -SELECT FEW- that have that kind of money to buy such a thing.

Why can't this same idea be used for all the rare gear that goes up for auction.   Because I think it is. Anyone would love to have a shiny new yacht (vestments of faith) but only a select few can afford such.  And rightly so.

[DrXavierTColtrane]

Why can't this same idea be used for all the rare gear that goes up for auction.   Because I think it is. Anyone would love to have a shiny new yacht (vestments of faith) but only a select few can afford such.  And rightly so.

The "rightly so" makes a moral presumption. As you have not stated what that moral presumption is, I can only guess at what it might be.

But I will say this: That in human behavior in general there is a choice when one climbs a ladder to believe either "I'm lucky that ladder was there" or "my own climbing is what got me where I am"...when both would seem to be partly true.

Moreover, sometimes those who get to the ladder first can kick it down so as to make it more difficult for those who come after.

To move from generalities to the server...

As a game principle, it is "rightly so" that a higher level character should prevail over a lower level character, all other things being equal. (In specific situations, this may not be the case, of course: a 10th level fighter need not prevail over a 5th level rogue when the skill required is lock picking. But in principle, "higher level" equals "better.")

A question that almost every online community must deal with, however, is whether mere seniority and/or "connections" should "rightly so" also accrue precedence over those who are less senior and less well connected. Obviously, this question is not limited to online communities, but because such communities exist to fill a primarily social function, it is more critical to the community's survival than, say, it would be an office that exists mostly to sell paper products.

*If* an online community puts up barriers to entry for new participants (such as a perception that they will always be in some way second-class citizens), then these barriers will impede its growth. Unsurprisingly, (some) existing participants often in the short run enjoy their protected status because they don't necessarily want their old neighborhood to change. Sometimes, they don't want to have to deal with an influx of people who are different from them or with whom they have no social capital.

The problem with this restrictive model is that in the long run the community struggles to sustain itself.

So a "rightly so" that may be right for an individual or for a group of individuals may not be "rightly so" for the server itself.

[FinalHeaven]

This is a roleplay server.  We can throw around fancy labels for all sorts of things but at the end of the day players are encouraged to roleplay their character in a way they deem as accurate.  The definition of fairness becomes fairly fluid with that in mind.  One can argue that the rich hoarding items for obscene prices isn't fair to the little man, and it isn't.  But it shouldn't have to be, either.  If my character is the type to sell an item for hundreds of thousands of gold and some other rich character is willing to pay, I'm entitled to my roleplay.  I'm entitled to being allowed to play my character in a way that I want, as long as I'm not griefing or ruining the experience of others.

On the flip side, a poor (read new) character is not entitled to my gold or my items.  They were not involved in me acquiring said items.  My having (or not having) these items in no way prevents them from obtaining the gold necessary to acquire the item, or the experience (read levels) necessary to acquire the item themselves.  This imposes no restrictive model, all it does is enforce the idea that a character needs to work to advance.  Gold is not hard to come by on this server, this really can't be an argument.  Whether or not someone is willing to put the time and effort into acquiring the gold is where the argument lies, and if they're not willing to do it, that's their choice.  It really blows my mind that the implication seems to be that said player is still entitled to something they put no effort in to getting.

[APorg]

So a "rightly so" that may be right for an individual or for a group of individuals may not be "rightly so" for the server itself.

I think the point is that if everyone had the special rare gear, then it would be neither rare nor special anymore. Thus it is "rightly so" that only a few can afford it because if everyone could afford it then it would not be rare and special. It has nothing to do with moral presumptions.

[Tycat]

Why can't this same idea be used for all the rare gear that goes up for auction.   Because I think it is. Anyone would love to have a shiny new yacht (vestments of faith) but only a select few can afford such.  And rightly so.

The "rightly so" makes a moral presumption. As you have not stated what that moral presumption is, I can only guess at what it might be.

But I will say this: That in human behavior in general there is a choice when one climbs a ladder to believe either "I'm lucky that ladder was there" or "my own climbing is what got me where I am"...when both would seem to be partly true.

Moreover, sometimes those who get to the ladder first can kick it down so as to make it more difficult for those who come after.

To move from generalities to the server...

As a game principle, it is "rightly so" that a higher level character should prevail over a lower level character, all other things being equal. (In specific situations, this may not be the case, of course: a 10th level fighter need not prevail over a 5th level rogue when the skill required is lock picking. But in principle, "higher level" equals "better.")

A question that almost every online community must deal with, however, is whether mere seniority and/or "connections" should "rightly so" also accrue precedence over those who are less senior and less well connected. Obviously, this question is not limited to online communities, but because such communities exist to fill a primarily social function, it is more critical to the community's survival than, say, it would be an office that exists mostly to sell paper products.

*If* an online community puts up barriers to entry for new participants (such as a perception that they will always be in some way second-class citizens), then these barriers will impede its growth. Unsurprisingly, (some) existing participants often in the short run enjoy their protected status because they don't necessarily want their old neighborhood to change. Sometimes, they don't want to have to deal with an influx of people who are different from them or with whom they have no social capital.

The problem with this restrictive model is that in the long run the community struggles to sustain itself.

So a "rightly so" that may be right for an individual or for a group of individuals may not be "rightly so" for the server itself.

The rightly so, i believe, is because the item drops so rarely, that you might see 1 or 2 every real life year. I know some items - white scarab, for example - took someone 2 years to find. So yes, it is rightly so for the server itself.

Edit: As to your ladder analogy, see finalhaven's reply. Sure, you know, i'll admit it took me a while to figure out how money works - but now that i have it down, it really isn't hard to make. And I am going to be square with you guys - the rich aren't a select few. They really aren't. I know this because my character does bank loans and discusses people's personal finances. I have seen a good lot of the server's pocket book, and they can afford it.

[DrXavierTColtrane]

Your post #36 is not a rebuttal to any argument I've made, FinalHeaven.

1) If the server structure has more fang flowing in than items to purchase with that fang, that's a simple *fact* of economics that you will have inflation. One can argue that this is not the case--items are in abundance or fang are scarce--but in point of  fact you  say "gold is not hard to come by," so you actually agree with and support the first premise.

Suppose there's a highway in which the speed limit is 200 mph. You are driving 200 mph on it, and I start 100 miles behind you. I say, "It's mathematically impossible for me to catch you by playing by the rules."

Your response is to say, "Are you insane? You can go 200 mph on this highway!"

2) Second, are items in short supply, relative to money? You say the rich "are hoarding items for obscene prices." Does that rebut my second premise, or does it support it?

No one (leastways me) has argued that poor characters are entitled to take away your gold or your items. In fact, inflation will take away your gold! I mentioned that earlier when I said inflation erodes savings.

If prices double, the net effect is half your accumulated gold has been robbed from you.

I stipulated that a presumption of the game is higher level equals better, which I hoped made it clear that I have no problem with higher level characters having better stuff.  That's how the game is supposed to work. But simply possessing Fang or loot does not equal "rightly so." It depends--does it not?--on how the gold and items were acquired?

You say there is "no restrictive model," but the server puts all kinds of restrictions on how one acquires wealth. Can one, for example, mule?

Whether or not someone is willing to put the time and effort into acquiring the gold is where the argument lies, and if they're not willing to do it, that's their choice.

Again, there are restrictions on the server with the explicit intent of limiting someone from simply putting time and effort into acquiring wealth, power, etc. So I think this statement is demonstrably false.

(In passing, none of this has anything to do with limiting how you roleplay.)

[Tycat]

lol, I am not sure the rich are hording items for insane prices, I am pretty sure the instant we find an item, we find a buyer and a price - because it's exciting to find something that's valuable. That's the beauty about playing a game merchant.

And i am going to tell you one thing right now - the server economy would be a lot worse off we didn't have in game merchants If people relied on finding something solely on their own efforts and not on the gold they have with them, no one would have anything nice. You're attacking a dead horse - moreover, you're attacking a dead horse that was put down with honors. There is nothing wrong with the server economy. You just need to find someone in game who can teach you how to make gold at your level. At level 2-4, I could easly make 10k a day. When i had my level 7 rogue, in vallaki, never leaving vallaki, he made 80k a day. A DAY. Focus on the RP, focus on socializing and figuring out the system, and you too will find money easy to come by.

[Arawn]

Again, there are restrictions on the server with the explicit intent of limiting someone from simply putting time and effort into acquiring wealth, power, etc. So I think this statement is demonstrably false.

Could you specify?

[DrXavierTColtrane]

Could you specify?

I mentioned muling.

Crafters are limited in their ability to sell their crafted items.

Experience cap.

Those I can immediately think of, but pretty much a constant refrain I've read on the forum since being here is that the server frowns on attempts to farm gold and XP.

[DrXavierTColtrane]

Note: I'm not criticizing such limits.

I'm pointing out that the server is not based on the premise of "just grind and grow rich."

[Tycat]

Could you specify?

I mentioned muling.

Crafters are limited in their ability to sell their crafted items.

Experience cap.

Those I can immediately think of, but pretty much a constant refrain I've read on the forum since being here is that the server frowns on attempts to farm gold and XP.

How do these limit your ability to make gold? Muling is against the rules, why would you mule? How are crafters limited? You can level a craft on your own efforts. How does the experience cap (Designed to keep people from power leveling) something that effects what you earn? What if I told you that farming gold and xp is not the way to make it?

Note: I'm not criticizing such limits.

I'm pointing out that the server is not based on the premise of "just grind and grow rich."

Correct. Money comes from being clever. If you want a successful character, RP is the best way to find that success. Join a faction, see where that takes you. Also, those deliveries are profitable. Moreover, there are countless other non-grinding ways to make money.

[herkles]

I think that one of the main issues is the fact that there isn't much beyond gear that people would use gold for in the game.


Side note: I wonder if it would be a good idea if the solars of dementlieu and the wolf-fang of Barovia were actual different currencies that one had to exchange

[Tycat]

I think that one of the main issues is the fact that there isn't much beyond gear that people would use gold for in the game.


Side note: I wonder if it would be a good idea if the solars of dementlieu and the wolf-fang of Barovia were actual different currencies that one had to exchange

Like if money was an item rather than gold drops?

[Arawn]

I'm afraid I don't really see what you're trying to get at here, Nicholas. There are many ways to acquire money and XP (leaving aside "power," which is very vague in this context). Grinding and crafting are only two of them. Players have plenty of options and are not really 'limited,' just paced (not very much, either).

People will offer for sale what they want to offer for sale, and at the prices at which they want to offer them, which was FinalHeaven's point. I'm getting the impression from your posts that finding gold may have been harder for you than it is for some other characters. Follow these characters or ask them how to earn more gold; I'm sure that will be helpful.

Our system of character closure means that successive waves of characters will replace each other as the most powerful on the server, and each successive wave will possess the capital, the power, and so forth.

A question that almost every online community must deal with, however, is whether mere seniority and/or "connections" should "rightly so" also accrue precedence over those who are less senior and less well connected. Obviously, this question is not limited to online communities, but because such communities exist to fill a primarily social function, it is more critical to the community's survival than, say, it would be an office that exists mostly to sell paper products.

*If* an online community puts up barriers to entry for new participants (such as a perception that they will always be in some way second-class citizens), then these barriers will impede its growth. Unsurprisingly, (some) existing participants often in the short run enjoy their protected status because they don't necessarily want their old neighborhood to change. Sometimes, they don't want to have to deal with an influx of people who are different from them or with whom they have no social capital.

The problem with this restrictive model is that in the long run the community struggles to sustain itself.

So a "rightly so" that may be right for an individual or for a group of individuals may not be "rightly so" for the server itself.

Ultimately, I'll point this out: our present system has been tested and refined over a decade, and we continue to exist, even, to grow. We have been around for that long and may be around for ten years again. Before you suggest radically changing this system, to which you have been exposed for less than six months, I think you should consider that we're doing something right, and that the developers have considered all aspects of our present situation very carefully.

[DrXavierTColtrane]

How do these limit your ability to make gold?

Because they do!

My post was to rebut FinalHeaven's statement that there are no restrictions and that all that is required is time and effort.

I'm not saying that people should be able to grind; I'm saying that it is false to say grinding is all that is required and the server is unrestricted.

The server is designed to reward some behavior and penalize others. Inherent in such a design is the presumption that some behavior on the part of players (and their characters) is preferable to others. Thus, it is possible to discuss those behaviors in terms of the community's overall aims and goals, rather than simply saying, "You want to be rich, spend a lot of time on the server."

Otherwise, there would not even be a need for a board called "Gameplay Balance." That such a board exists presumes that Gameplay Balance is a desired outcome.

Example: Does gearing the game toward those who can spend limitless hours on the server promote or harm gameplay balance?

[Tycat]

How do these limit your ability to make gold?

Because they do!

No, they don't, and you're not providing reasons that they are. I am telling you, all you need to do is focus on the RP and ask someone how to make money.