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Author Topic: A Treatise on the Server Economy  (Read 15157 times)

DrXavierTColtrane

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A Treatise on the Server Economy
« on: August 11, 2015, 10:28:28 PM »
Inflation is caused by too much money chasing too few goods. Based on anecdotal evidence, I believe inflation to be a problem on the POTM server:

* Players who are more knowledgeable than I have told me that money is worthless.

* Players who are more experienced than I are free and easy with their money, paying me sums carelessly that it would take me as an inexperienced player a long time to accumulate.

* I've attended several auction-type events and been astounded by the fang offered for relatively low-powered items.

* Herbs, which I know something about, seem as raw materials excessively valued compared to the finished goods produced from them (potions).

* I can look through older posts and see that many items cost much more than they once did. For example, the Ring of the Hierophant is currently being sought at a price of 150,000 fang. Only two months ago, someone offered 50,000, and in March someone offered 20,000.

Also from reading many forum threads, I see that the Powers That Be do not think such inflation is a good thing and would prefer it not occur. Therefore, this post looks at what might be the cause of the hyper-inflation and what changes could arrest it.

Given the cause of inflation, the two ways to fix it are by increasing the supply of desired goods or decreasing the supply of money. Some factors on this server that affect each:

1) Crafting: Consumes money and increases the supply of goods. Thus, encouraging more crafting would reduce inflation.

2) Adventuring: Increases the supply of goods *and* of money. But undesirable items in loot also increase money supply rather than consumer goods, as these are sold off to NPC merchants, and no PC wants to buy them. Removing unusable or seldom-retained loot items, devaluing them, or decreasing their frequency would also, therefore, decrease inflationary pressure. Second, reduce the markup NPC merchants make so that PCs have increased incentive to buy these goods. Otherwise, server resets destroy them so they are no longer purchasable, but the money they were sold for is retained by PCs...again leading to inflation. Items that accumulate in Petre's inventory unsold, furs, rat corpses, transit jobs, bounties...all produce fang but nothing any PC wants to--or can--buy.

However, many of these are necessary for newbies to get started, so see number 4.

3) Death: Making death more expensive would help decrease the money supply, but high level people are also more likely to be able to avoid paying for death via PC resurrection and more likely to avoid it in the first place. So this is a regressive remedy unless tweaked (such as, 100 fang per 1,000 XP accumulated, rather than 100 fang per level).

4) Finally, I believe the small-level economies around Vallaki are distorted by few barriers to economic trade with high-level areas. Gary Gygax said that adventuring areas were like Gold Rush towns, which also had hyper-inflation, and this is compounded when high-level people transport large sums or valuable items into areas where wealth should be scarce. One idea to reduce this distortion is to have a tariff system in place on the Vistani wagons such that a character carrying goods or fang of great value into a realm must pay more money to use the caravans (pass through customs) than a "tourist" character who is just seeing the sights in the new realm.

In any case, any remedy for the devaluing of the Fang ought to put most of its burden on those most able to pay, rather than making life more economically difficult for beginning characters. Without new characters, the server will inevitably wither.

Thoughts and comments welcome.
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FinalHeaven

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Re: A Treatise on the Server Economy
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2015, 11:16:01 PM »
This was discussed a few months ago if I remember right and since then my opinion remains pretty much the same.  People pay what they're willing to pay.  If they weren't willing to pay the huge prices, the prices would drop.  They do and have dropped in the past.  I see no issue with this personally.  Similarly I can't say I've ever seen a real struggle for a low level character once they realize that gold is quite easy to make.



BahamutZ3RO

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Re: A Treatise on the Server Economy
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2015, 11:30:10 PM »
Meh, I recall a few years ago before the big item update went in. There seemed to be a much more stable economy, things that currently go for 500-1000 were going for upwards of 5-8000. Things felt a lot rarer back then too, though.
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DrXavierTColtrane

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Re: A Treatise on the Server Economy
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2015, 11:53:25 PM »
Similarly I can't say I've ever seen a real struggle for a low level character once they realize that gold is quite easy to make.

If low-level quests and rewards are never adjusted to reflect server-wide inflation, then the relative balance between new and old deteriorates.

To put it in real-world terms, if the 1 percent accumulate more and more but minimum wage stays the same, well, you get the picture  :lol:

Of course, if experienced players  create new characters but retain their OC knowledge, then they are less affected by such a disparity.

If no one minds the hyper inflation, however, then let the good times roll! But I have seen many comments about wrecking the economy and the fear of devaluing money. (For example, the discussion about being able to sell potions. No one can currently sell potions to NPCs, and yet we still have wealth creep because it is inevitable, given the current economic structure of money supply outstripping consumer goods.)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 11:55:29 PM by Nicholas Kronos »
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FinalHeaven

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Re: A Treatise on the Server Economy
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2015, 12:12:49 AM »
Similarly I can't say I've ever seen a real struggle for a low level character once they realize that gold is quite easy to make.

If low-level quests and rewards are never adjusted to reflect server-wide inflation, then the relative balance between new and old deteriorates.

This is what I meant by saying when the new player realizes gold is easy to make.

Learning low level quests are not the right way to make gold easily is the first step to making gold easily.



qwertyuioppp

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Re: A Treatise on the Server Economy
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2015, 12:13:37 AM »
* I can look through older posts and see that many items cost much more than they once did. For example, the Ring of the Hierophant is currently being sought at a price of 150,000 fang. Only two months ago, someone offered 50,000, and in March someone offered 20,000.
Yeah, for this point, I think FinalHeaven said it about right, people will pay what they're willing to pay. I think this is more of a statement on those particular players and their PCs personalities than proof of inflation. My PC collects gold as a hobby, but it's ultimately worthless to her, and that ring is the one thing she wanted. There was no demand, and she wasn't competing with anyone. I would've put a high price on it even if she only had half that amount of gold, and it would've probably had the same purchasing power. The next druid that wants one might buy it for 10,000, or 5,000, or even whatever the NPC vendor price is; just because a high amount is present doesn't mean there's been an escalation.

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Re: A Treatise on the Server Economy
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2015, 04:35:17 AM »
If anything, things need to be more expenisve
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de_reguer

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Re: A Treatise on the Server Economy
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2015, 06:45:40 AM »
Money becomes meaningless because past a certain level every ones characters are fully kitted, but they still keep accumulating gold every time they go out and do something. At high levels when people spend gold its more for individual hobbies (collecting gems, weird or unusual magic items, etc.) than any legitimate need. Most long time players can even get most of their basic characters needs well before mid levels barring the enchanted gear. That leaves a long time to accumulate gold from mission to mission.

Seriously, Other than throwing around absurd amounts of gold to show how rich you are what is there to really spend gold on at higher levels? The economy of the server isn't broken so much as there is no economy for most players past a certain level.

Syl

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Re: A Treatise on the Server Economy
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2015, 08:29:54 AM »

I can honestly say.. not one of my characters is fully kitted...Monica might be the most due ot all her stuff being enchanted... Using her own exp... But still shes not one looking for the next thing to get rich...  And the price for things is completely rediculous... the only ones ever going to be able to buy some of these items are those that can clear perfidious... like its a walk in the park.. The most gold I have ever acumulated at one time on a character is 60k... that to me thats a hell of a lot of gold... I should be set for life at that much and feel like a bloody noble.

The most gold I have ever touched was about 350k? But that was because the character was knocked out brought up and ran and i gathered their stuff... I sit here and wonder sometime Why ANY character needs that much gold.. you could buy A Flipping castle... and then the auctions come and I've heard of people spending millions of gold.. just for a item... AND STILL KEEP BIDDING ON THINGS AT THE AUCTION! like.. really?  It seems a bit outragous and insane when people say things should cost more... Your now just making it more difficult for those that actually want to get the item but have a hard time getting the gold.. most "common" people have around.... i'll guess 20-30k...most of it stored in a bank..

uncommon have around 40k to maybe 100k... and thats pushing it.... The few have 100k+... Not everyone knows where to go to sell.. and if they do they probably do not really care where to get top price for  selling their junk. and there may be those that know and care.. but don't get the chance to go out with others very much since whenever they look there is never many around. I've been around for two years now, I'm not really one for gold since well.. the more you have the more you feel you can spend for something stupid.

If average joe sees a merchant sell... I don't know lets keep rolling with this ring. ( <3 love you Fade :P) But lets say joe sees someone sell this ring for 120k... and they sell it rather easily without much difficulty. It will cause Joe to think... "Hey... If one person is willing to pay that much for that ring... I bet I can do it also for the same price." When you increase the cost of items and people cannot raise the funds for it, It makes gold seem useless and they then have to hope they find their own item like it because by the time even if they save all their gold The item will already have been sold.

This is Ravenloft folks, not Goldenloft... nothing should matter more then our lives and sanity.

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qwertyuioppp

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Re: A Treatise on the Server Economy
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2015, 08:49:36 AM »
I don't know lets keep rolling with this ring. ( <3 love you Fade :P)

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Syl

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Re: A Treatise on the Server Economy
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2015, 08:50:17 AM »
I don't know lets keep rolling with this ring. ( <3 love you Fade :P)

I'VE DESTROYED POTM  :ohnoes:  <3

Ruined forever! lol

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FinalHeaven

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Re: A Treatise on the Server Economy
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2015, 11:42:21 AM »
Merchanting isnt inherently about being fair to everyone, its about making a profit.  Certainly if you play a kind hearted character who's willing to cut deals and be nice by all means do so.

But if you don't play that sort of character I'm not sure I see any merit in the argument that it's not fair certain characters who show up at a high end auction can't afford things.  Its the sellers item they can put whatever price  they want on it if people are willing to pay. Why should this be regulated in some way?  Nobody but the seller has any actual entitlement to the item. They didn't work for it, they've come to buy it. They're in the same place as everyone e else who came to buy it and their lack of funds is their own personal problem.

I've not yet made a new character who doesn't have upwards of 10k by level 5. Gold is not hard to acquire once you get yourself settled in game.




Syl

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Re: A Treatise on the Server Economy
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2015, 12:01:32 PM »
I understand that. but when did gold ever matter that much? as I said this isn't Goldenloft.. Where the objective is to make as much gold as possible..

and i know it can be easy to make gold... when i can make about 10k easy by just picking NPC pockets and selling it at camp... Its more of the fact of... Hey I found this super rare item...I know very very few have any gold so i'm going ot lesson it even more and sell it at some obsered amount of price just to limit even more who can buy it.

I thought the point of selling an item you FOUND was to make a profit and get rid of it.

I understand the seller gets to set the price... it is just unfair for those that do not carry and or have that much gold. Not everyone goes out and kills things or farms... some of them have their own crafts to run and maintain. I dongeoun at times and enjoy the profit and gain in RP exp and gold... however its rediculious when things are sold higher then a reasonable amount... people can use the examin tool and get a range on how much an item is actual worth... the higher the apraise they have the csmaller the margin of error and more exact price they get... when i'm looking at a item thats worth 6k-10k and the person selling it is going for 30k....I'm sorry thats just greed right there.  and eventually items get held onto for so long the seller no longer cares and passes to a friend instead.

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Re: A Treatise on the Server Economy
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2015, 12:35:19 PM »
The thing is, the server has been this way ever since I started 5 years ago. It's probably been that way for even longer. If anything it's slightly harder to make gold, some of the methods that churned out too much gold have been fixed. I remember one time when I was fairly new, there was an auction and all of the really old players were farming gold to out-bid each other for the crazy exotic stuff being offered. There was another time when I was that person, I needed some Hector's Wary Treds and hadn't seen any for MONTHS. Lo and behold they were at an auction, I won with a 200k bid.

FinalHeaven

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Re: A Treatise on the Server Economy
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2015, 12:50:13 PM »

I understand the seller gets to set the price... it is just unfair for those that do not carry and or have that much gold. Not everyone goes out and kills things or farms... some of them have their own crafts to run and maintain. I dongeoun at times and enjoy the profit and gain in RP exp and gold... however its rediculious when things are sold higher then a reasonable amount... people can use the examin tool and get a range on how much an item is actual worth... the higher the apraise they have the csmaller the margin of error and more exact price they get... when i'm looking at a item thats worth 6k-10k and the person selling it is going for 30k....I'm sorry thats just greed right there.  and eventually items get held onto for so long the seller no longer cares and passes to a friend instead.

I don't understand what is unfair about this. It is a person's choice how much effort they want to put in to acquiring gold. Its no one else's responsibility and if you play a character that can't get enough gold to buy something, that's life.  Your character doesn't have entitlement to an item they didn't help acquire.

On a similar note what the examine tool tells you is irrelevant. Worth of an item is subjective. Your character may value something differently than mine and that effects how much someone is willing to pay. And if someone is willing to pay a set price and said price is 10 times higher then what someone else offered, that's still how much its worth. Why on earth would (or should) a merchant settle for less?  I don't see how this makes any sense.

Like I said if you play a character that strives to be nice and fair then more power to you. But that's not a standard everyone needs to follow.



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Re: A Treatise on the Server Economy
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2015, 01:08:51 PM »
Merchanting isnt inherently about being fair to everyone, its about making a profit.  Certainly if you play a kind hearted character who's willing to cut deals and be nice by all means do so.

IMO that's the best part about playing a merchant, working with people who want your stuff. You could even let people go into debt if you're an evil person. Or hold items or barter if you're less evil. As well, another aspect to being that friendly merchant that supplies the entire server is you're everyone's friend, if anyone EVER gives you trouble you've got a legion of friends to deal with it.

Syl

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Re: A Treatise on the Server Economy
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2015, 01:25:07 PM »
Its not that i strive for nice and fair... even on characters that i play that are rude... hostile... harsh.. and honest... they didn't charge an arm or a leg for an item AND I was making the items. even going exploring and finding items it hardly calls for upping a price 5 times what its worth with the examin tool...the higher the price is for a item... the smaller the group of folks that can actually BUY it... I hear about these awesome and cool items.... and yet at the prices many of them are sold for I never see em.. let alone touch em, most go.. " I think i'm going ot auction this one off... or see how much i can get for it."

Like really? are so many adventurers that worried about paying their non existent virtual rent?

Its just... the prices are rediculous..and this is a two year old player... imagin how a new player feels.. THey see that price and are probably like.. Well.. I'll never get to see that item...

There is a difference between being evil and greedy... and just outragous and inconcivable prices.

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BahamutZ3RO

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Re: A Treatise on the Server Economy
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2015, 01:34:33 PM »
It's frustrating that the REALLY high-end stuff goes for what it does, but it's also the most realistic. My biggest beef is with the collapse of low and mid tier items, but that's pretty inevitable with saturation and no real ways to lose your gear.
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Syl

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Re: A Treatise on the Server Economy
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2015, 01:49:59 PM »
It's frustrating that the REALLY high-end stuff goes for what it does, but it's also the most realistic. My biggest beef is with the collapse of low and mid tier items, but that's pretty inevitable with saturation and no real ways to lose your gear.

Oh gods don't say that... [fears a swarm of epic rust monsters]

though out of curiosity... what is considered mid tier?

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Re: A Treatise on the Server Economy
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2015, 02:00:16 PM »
What the examine tool says an item is worth is bunk, btw. I would not recommend using it too often; the best way to learn what something is worth is to listen to people as they wheel and deal and learn what people are willing to spend for it. Like any market, prices are dictated by supply and demand, not what NWN says an item property is worth.

FinalHeaven

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Re: A Treatise on the Server Economy
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2015, 02:16:23 PM »
I would say that like how choosing how much you want to spend on a set item is a personal choice, giving up and claiming you'll never afford it is your choice as well. I think a new player who enjoys the server is far more likely to go about learning its ins and outs then simply scoff and say they can't afford something.

I still stand firmly by the idea that inability to acquire gold is a non argument. Even when I first started playing here I picked up pretty quick that people are willing to pay for services rendered, the most obvious of which is collecting crafting ingredients. Be consistent at it and you can pretty much set your own price of how much to sell a bag of monster goo for. Of course it all comes down to how much effort you want to put in. But that goes for everything on the server, which is another reason why if you didn't actually work for a specific item you want to buy you don't have any rightful say in its price.



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Re: A Treatise on the Server Economy
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2015, 02:22:58 PM »
Also, keep in mind new players - The npc quest jobs are not the only form of income. There are mid-high level PC's who pay you stupidly well for things.

-Gems
-Herbs
-Running around for them
-I personally pay more for junk loot for a higher rate (because I invested in Appraise and Influence and can sell it at about a 60% higher rate than you)


What makes the difference, where poor lowbie characters are no longer poor - is willingness to interact with other pc's to stimulate the economy. You can be level 2 and make 30,000 gold if you are just willing to slow down and RP. Sell your junk to the merchant PC who's offering to buy it (don't question them), find out who's paying for herbs, find out who's paying for your company. It's really just taking time to get to know people. I realize high levels don't linger around vallaki - but most of use who do provide income have posted advertisements on the forums and word of mouth/flyers in game.
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Re: A Treatise on the Server Economy
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2015, 03:08:06 PM »
I think inflation isn't as bad now as when Perfidus was an easy cart ride away from the Mist camp; Perfidus had an absurdly high loot dispensation that any practiced ninja-looter could get most of. With Perfidus effectively more distant, most of the other good loot spots aren't as close nor as convenient to RP/trade hubs.

But certainly the phenomenon of inflation is real; nor do you have to be a ninja-looter to benefit from vasts amounts of gold: pretty much any wily merchant PC can become a literal millionaire.

And that sets the bar. As many have observed -- gold is relatively valueless when it is merely a means to an end. And when everyone has too much of it, why wouldn't people spend six or seven figure sums on important gear?

But the problem is, there aren't any good solutions to the issue that won't also disproportionately harm new characters and players. As has been pointed out: raise the cost of raising, and it won't be the rich PCs who are disadvantaged.
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Syl

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Re: A Treatise on the Server Economy
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2015, 03:13:44 PM »
I think inflation isn't as bad now as when Perfidus was an easy cart ride away from the Mist camp; Perfidus had an absurdly high loot dispensation that any practiced ninja-looter could get most of. With Perfidus effectively more distant, most of the other good loot spots aren't as close nor as convenient to RP/trade hubs.

But certainly the phenomenon of inflation is real; nor do you have to be a ninja-looter to benefit from vasts amounts of gold: pretty much any wily merchant PC can become a literal millionaire.

And that sets the bar. As many have observed -- gold is relatively valueless when it is merely a means to an end. And when everyone has too much of it, why wouldn't people spend six or seven figure sums on important gear?

But the problem is, there aren't any good solutions to the issue that won't also disproportionately harm new characters and players. As has been pointed out: raise the cost of raising, and it won't be the rich PCs who are disadvantaged.

Thank you Aprogressivist. I'm not the best at explaining things.. and i had to step away since i was getting more frustrated with myself for not saying something as simple as this.

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Re: A Treatise on the Server Economy
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2015, 03:26:00 PM »
This is the closest to a perfect economy as I have seen on any server in my 13 years of play. It isn't perfect, of course, and never will be... but it's close. The biggest flaw I can see is the scale at which income increases at higher levels. When adventurers have a balance of 1/4 million GP at several different banks, that's evidence that the curve needs scaled back, if only a bit. This may have been accomplished with Perfidus being put further out, only time will tell; it will take a long time for the economy to plateau after any significant shift, so I guess we're in a "wait and see" phase right now.