A Treatise on the Server Economy

[APorg]

Nicholas, the problem you're trying to address can't really be fixed. You can't create an economic model that will work realistically -- that's far too complicated and too big a question for a server that maybe has a hundred active players -- probably less. This isn't EVE, after all, where there are genuine in-game market forces created by the player base.

In simple terms: there are no mechanics and no game-balancing measures that can be brought in to combat the inflation created by rich PCs... not without diving down the rabbit hole and trying to create a new game. It's not that there are no solutions: it's just that any solution will create far more problems than inflation does.

The best that you can hope for is that:
(a) ultra-rich PCs will die, be retired, or just become inactive (probably the biggest real-term cause of in-game deflation)
(b) DMs will step in to implement money-draining storylines (although this can in essence be viewed as "rewarding" rich PCs with DM attention simply because they have gold, so may not be a neutral idea)
(c) ultra-rich PCs will show courtesy to poor PCs and not use their financial might to shove them aside at every opportunity.

Otherwise, it is what it is.

Of course, maybe I'm wrong and there is a better solution. But the point is, just because the current set-up is not perfect, doesn't mean there is a better solution that demands the involvement of the DMs and the Dev team to find.

[APorg]

Everyone has a healthy fear of death on this server, regardless of level, because it already does cost more for higher levels to get raised, even if they do it themselves (I stockpile diamonds for that very reason, just in case).  I don't see a need to increase any sort of "death penalty" on high levels, because (1) that is not a problem that needs a solution (high levels are not running around dying with impunity), and (2) it does not serve as a functional gold-sink to take gold out of the system.

Plus the equation of "high-level" to "rich" is false.

It's relatively easy to be a ninjalooter at low level and get rich. Conversely, there are poor high level PCs. High level =/= rich.

[Tycat]

In my opinion that would be much better than a straight-line increase in costs. The higher-level character not only has more gold, but dies less and has a much easier time making money later.

Higher level characters die just as often as lower level characters. It isn't about their level, but about the player's skill in keeping their character alive, lag, or other factors. With higher levels, come higher level risks.

Someone in game (generously) gave my character 4,000 fang for nothing when I was low level. When Kenthelag expressed his gratitude, she said it was nothing because she could make that much "in five minutes."

Low levels can make this as well, it has to do with knowledge you can gain through RP.

One idea I threw out in the first post was 100 fang for every 1,000 XP the player has accumulated, or some other ratio. That would be a truly progressive rate and make death a bit more significant for high levels. That high levels have little fear of death is a recurrent complaint here, is it not?

Again, not all high levels have money, some high levels are poorer than low level characters. Also, high level's have a lot to fear from death. I could lose my special sword that was given to me by my character's spouse (again). I could lose up to 5 levels if i have to re-spawn at level 20. That's a lot! I can lose all my gold and weapons if someone comes by and robs me instead of heals me. What if i have my life savings on me? High level characters die just as often, and often times, to really really silly things.

On my low level palladin, he didn't die at all until level 7. That was a record for me. In that interim, my highest level character, who is very powerful in his own right by build and gear, died several times, once to a low level monster I wasn't paying attention to. So this argument really isn't accurate.

1) Gold is plentiful.

2) But the server has restrictions to prevent players from making as much of it as they want.

#1 is both true as it is false. It's plentiful if you know how to make it!
#2 is absolutely false. I haven't seen any examples presented that validates this.

All in all, I don't see the problem with rare goods being expensive. I have spent quite a bit on an item i wanted, but that was because I had the means and I wanted it - also because I wanted to strut my power of being able to get what I wanted as that character. I have also spent 100k modifying an outfit for a single event, and then another 100k modifying it back. It's a fine money sink when you're RPing a Rich character. When you're not? You would never in a million years think that was a good investment. It has to do with RP and cannot be a blanket over everyone.

[Nemesis 24]

I admit I also liked the idea Knas put forward about factions becoming money sinks.  However, then I realised that some factions in the game have a ridiculously excessive amount of power in game already to the point of being nearly game breaking.  Even the perception of more, cosmetic or not, would be a bad idea.  It's already at a thoroughly excessive level.

Currently I mostly solo run as a paladin, purely because finding a party these days is very, very difficult (timezone, alignment issues, and others too probably).  I have, as a result, found a staggering amount of wealth.  What do I do with it?  I use it to help others.  I don't need it.  I can't spend it on anything.  There's nothing I want to buy.  There is one item in game I'd like to purchase but I'm happy to wait for it.  Vestments of Faith don't drop that often.

I mostly spend my gold bankrolling other players lowbie characters - buying them gear and helping them out, as much as I can, to get them started, buying items from traders and merchants and then giving them to those that need it in the outskirts.  It fits the character, it helps those players who are struggling, and its rewarding.  It also prevents inflation on prices in a way.  While I could go around throwing tens of thousands on items, I think that's really quite silly.

Inflation, such as it is, exists because there is a dearth of things for the exceedingly wealthy to spend their coin on.  This isn't necessarily a bad thing.  The server is aimed at lower level characters, and correctly so, because the levelling process is so slow and because aiming a server at the top end characters is never a good idea unless you prefer to create an image of Ivory Tower syndrome.

Is the economy perfect?  No, but none are.  With the problems of the setting actively promoting a state of decay and stagnation, and the nature of it being a game, there are inherent problems that make solutions difficult to overcome.  Those two aspects of the game are not going to change.  But if there are any changes to come in, they'll need to be changes that level only the top end of the playing field, and don't cripple the 'have nots' who are, for the most part, having a tough time of it as it is.  Personally, I'd rather keep things as they are currently.  I doubt a change made is going to benefit matters as a whole, but rather make things better for a specific group and worse for the many.  It tends to be the case from long experience, anyway.

[DrXavierTColtrane]

Tycat:

Higher level characters die just as often as lower level characters. It isn't about their level, but about the player's skill in keeping their character alive, lag, or other factors.

Your first factor supports my position that high-level characters die less often. Players playing high-level characters are presumed to be more skilled than those just starting out. Low-skill players will tend not to reach as high levels as high-skill players. (If those two preceding statements are false, then the server's game balance is completely skewed!)

As level increases, the fraction of characters being played by low-skill players will decrease.

Thus, if (as you imply) high-skill players die less often than low-skill players, high-level characters must be presumed to die less often than low-level characters.

Server lag is irrelevant--unless you think server lag happens to high-level characters more often than low. That is, suppose server lag is the cause of death for each 1 /  3 of the time. Then that has no effect on which group dies more often in total.

With higher levels, come higher level risks.

Nevertheless, it is impossible to be in a maximum-risk situation on the server at all times. Given that transportation on the server is (in general) a slow, manual process, low levels will spend more time in situations that can kill them. How often are high levels killed by a weasel while walking through farmland?

However, assume for the moment you are correct and high levels die just as often as low levels. How can you argue that high levels cannot possibly afford to pay more for resurrection in the same post in which you say that anyone with the *inside* knowledge can make 4,000 fang in 5 minutes--even when he or she is low level!

To resurrect a 20th level character with 190,000 XP would cost 19,000 fang if the charge was tied to XP. According to your own claim, that represents about 25 minutes of easily obtained server wages. That's hardly onerous.

#2 is absolutely false. I haven't seen any examples presented that validates this.

Again, if you think making money is completely without restriction, that even low levels can make 4,000 fang in five minutes, then it is difficult to argue against the proposition that money is kind of valueless.

Nemesis 24: Thanks for adding your comments.

[Syl]

Not chiming in on the price of items anymore i'll actually defend the high levels a bit... I have a level 16 Monica O'Sullivan as most know... what few know is she only has a 8 con.. you all do the math.. She's died more often at high levels then low levels because the things hit harder and faster then her... Increasing the cost for high levels wont matter we pay a fair amount for those that do not bring raise dead items... that being said should they bring raise dead items or a raise dead fails the price is now... what.. 5x the amount?... been a while since I've been badly impaired.

And Server lag can play a factor in it or lag in general.. because if your lagging means your chances of dying raise slightly and increase as buffs begin to fade or are dispelled. or everything stops for a full round and next thing you know a cleric cannot heal you or you cannot drink a heal potion because you just got crited three out of the four swings and your health just drops. High level characters are of course going ot work harder to not die, they know what its like well.. most do heh..

[Tycat]

Tycat:

Higher level characters die just as often as lower level characters. It isn't about their level, but about the player's skill in keeping their character alive, lag, or other factors.

Your first factor supports my position that high-level characters die less often. Players playing high-level characters are presumed to be more skilled than those just starting out. Low-skill players will tend not to reach as high levels as high-skill players. (If those two preceding statements are false, then the server's game balance is completely skewed!)

As level increases, the fraction of characters being played by low-skill players will decrease.

Thus, if (as you imply) high-skill players die less often than low-skill players, high-level characters must be presumed to die less often than low-level characters.

Server lag is irrelevant--unless you think server lag happens to high-level characters more often than low. That is, suppose server lag is the cause of death for each 1 /  3 of the time. Then that has no effect on which group dies more often in total.

I am starting to think you're deliberately arguing just to argue, and purposefully twisting words just to suit your argument. And no, my point did not support what you said at all, I stand by the fact that high levels die just as often as low levels.

[Merry Munchkin]

Your first factor supports my position that high-level characters die less often. Players playing high-level characters are presumed to be more skilled than those just starting out. Low-skill players will tend not to reach as high levels as high-skill players. (If those two preceding statements are false, then the server's game balance is completely skewed!)

As level increases, the fraction of characters being played by low-skill players will decrease.

Thus, if (as you imply) high-skill players die less often than low-skill players, high-level characters must be presumed to die less often than low-level characters.

Okay, hold on -- your point you are making here has nothing to do with the way the server is constructed or how the server economy is run.  What you are saying is, in effect, bad players tend to play badly and don't get to high levels.  Bad players also tend to die more often than good players.  No kidding.  This is true for any game.  Bad players lose more often than good players.  Las Vegas doesn't change the rules of poker to accommodate the needs of bad players.  This is all a non sequitur, that has nothing to do with the perceived inequalities in the server economy.

Again, if you think making money is completely without restriction, that even low levels can make 4,000 fang in five minutes, then it is difficult to argue against the proposition that money is kind of valueless.

A low level won't make 4000 in 5 minutes (that would be grossly unbalanced).  However, a low level can easily make 1000-2000 in under an hour or so (real time) in Vallaki, especially if they are in a group.  They are low level, they should be fighting spawn that is level appropriate, and using equipment that is level appropriate, and getting rewards that are level appropriate.  Conversely, a level 20 marching through Perfidus had better be getting better rewards than that, given the difficulty and risks involved.  The point people are making is that, at any level, it is not that difficult to obtain money.  No one, regardless of level, is mechanically restricted from making money on this server -- there are no rules in place that prevent the accumulation of money, nor are there any rules in place that cap the rate at which you can accumulate gold or items.

Money in PoTM is not valueless (it is a medium of exchange that my character transacts in almost daily).  However, the problem is that there are few ways available to deplete the store of gold in circulation.  Nevertheless, despite the risk of in-game inflation, a low level is not prevented from making money and getting rich.

I think you are identifying a few extreme tail-end examples of price inflation for in-demand and/or rare items, and presuming that this means the server economy is somehow broken.  I don't see that, and I engage in mercantile activity with my character regularly.  There is an active player-to-player economy, and there are items at nearly every price level for player characters to purchase at any level.

I reiterate, there is no issue with players producing income -- the only thing the server needs to be concerned with is how to take money OUT of the system, not with worrying about whether players have sufficient opportunities to accumulate wealth.  The best way to take money out of the system is to give players creative ways of spending what they have accumulated (houses, for example, come to mind). 

[EO]

Alright folks; I think this topic has run its course. While it is indeed an interesting topic, the same arguments have been presented on both sides multiple times and it's obvious no one will change their mind. Before things escalate or this turns hostile, I'll lock this topic. If you have suggestions for gold sinks, feel free to make them in another topic as long as it doesn't turn into another debate on whether inflation is a problem or not.