Hiding names.

[Mcskinns]

The roll is usually a bluff check or a hide check versus the persons spot roll, this is something that I have seen used, and it does work.

Hide makes no sense, it is used to avoid being seen entirely... just because someone is skilled at standing inside a shadow or behind a tree does not make them masters of disguise.... Bluff could work, but still... does not adequately portray the skill of one to actually disguise either, at least imo.  Someone could put a mop on their head and some ten inch heels and not convince me they are Madonna.  warping existing skills to cover something they are not really intended to cover is just bad form in my opinion, everyone will simply find a reason to use a skill they believe is best suited to their success.  I for one would love a new skill to actually cover it, but woulld't want the headache of hearing people complain about the need to respend points and being forced to lose other skills to take it.  Better in my opinion to make it a craft, tie it to appropriate abilities and make some means to see through it given certain circumstances.

Otherwise, its just going to be messy.

The best option would be to use a "perform" check, just like an actor in costume using a stage accent when speaking.  You could add a "disguise kit" to items available (probably with charges, since that represents using up the materials in the kit), which would give you a bonus to your perform skill.  There are some existing items that also give small boosts to the perform skill, so a non-bard could still pull it off successfully.  If you want to make it an opposed check, I would suggest an ability check (INT or WIS, with my recommendation being WIS -- since this represents, in part, intuition and insight).

However, I would caution that I think this was discussed before (you can search the forums), and while there is a script that does allow for removal of names, according to feedback of those who know it is rather cumbersome and possibly a resource hog.  Just my two cents.

Problems arise when countering a Skill check with a Ability Roll.  Skills are 1d20+ skill, stat checks are 1d20 + stat mod.   A huge difference at higher levels in favor of the skill.

[Ehver]

The roll is usually a bluff check or a hide check versus the persons spot roll, this is something that I have seen used, and it does work.

Hide makes no sense, it is used to avoid being seen entirely... just because someone is skilled at standing inside a shadow or behind a tree does not make them masters of disguise.... Bluff could work, but still... does not adequately portray the skill of one to actually disguise either, at least imo.  Someone could put a mop on their head and some ten inch heels and not convince me they are Madonna.  warping existing skills to cover something they are not really intended to cover is just bad form in my opinion, everyone will simply find a reason to use a skill they believe is best suited to their success.  I for one would love a new skill to actually cover it, but woulld't want the headache of hearing people complain about the need to respend points and being forced to lose other skills to take it.  Better in my opinion to make it a craft, tie it to appropriate abilities and make some means to see through it given certain circumstances.

Otherwise, its just going to be messy.

The best option would be to use a "perform" check, just like an actor in costume using a stage accent when speaking.  You could add a "disguise kit" to items available (probably with charges, since that represents using up the materials in the kit), which would give you a bonus to your perform skill.  There are some existing items that also give small boosts to the perform skill, so a non-bard could still pull it off successfully.  If you want to make it an opposed check, I would suggest an ability check (INT or WIS, with my recommendation being WIS -- since this represents, in part, intuition and insight).

However, I would caution that I think this was discussed before (you can search the forums), and while there is a script that does allow for removal of names, according to feedback of those who know it is rather cumbersome and possibly a resource hog.  Just my two cents.

Problems arise when countering a Skill check with a Ability Roll.  Skills are 1d20+ skill, stat checks are 1d20 + stat mod.   A huge difference at higher levels in favor of the skill.

Yup. Rolls should always be matched.

Ability Score vs Ability Score; Skill vs Skill; etc.

Otherwise you get extremely unfair advantages.

[Merry Munchkin]

Problems arise when countering a Skill check with a Ability Roll.  Skills are 1d20+ skill, stat checks are 1d20 + stat mod.   A huge difference at higher levels in favor of the skill.
[/quote]

Yup. Rolls should always be matched.

Ability Score vs Ability Score; Skill vs Skill; etc.

Otherwise you get extremely unfair advantages.
[/quote]

I don't necessarily disagree with the idea in principle, but the problem lies when you don't have a skill that has an opposed skill.  It is easy when you have "move silently" vs. "listen", or "hide" vs. "spot", but it falls apart when you are dealing with skills that have no opposing skill.  For example, what is the opposing skill for "perform"?  You could claim "spot", but then you are stretching the concept of "spot" out of what it normally covers, which is another one of your pet peeves you listed above.

In most cases, you should have skills opposing skills, and abilities opposing abilities, but that is not always the most feasible or the most logical of outcomes.  In the case of "perform", while it might be nice to have an opposed skill, we don't have one that fits right.  In consequence, an ability roll works well enough.  As far as the idea of "unfair advantages" goes, I think this is a red herring -- if someone has an incredibly high perform skill, then there is no reason why their disguise shouldn't be virtually flawless to an observer (think of modern makeup and costuming in movies -- an actor can go in and become completely unrecognizable when the makeup is complete).  Additionally, however, a low level player with a high INT or WIS ought to have a chance to see through a relatively poor disguise, regardless of whether they have any points in a skill like "spot".  By not having it an opposed "spot" check, you also avoid the use of things like clairaudience/clairvoyance allowing people to penetrate disguises (after all, enhanced spot and listen shouldn't necessarily give any insight into a good disguise).

[Ehver]

I don't necessarily disagree with the idea in principle, but the problem lies when you don't have a skill that has an opposed skill.  It is easy when you have "move silently" vs. "listen", or "hide" vs. "spot", but it falls apart when you are dealing with skills that have no opposing skill.  For example, what is the opposing skill for "perform"?  You could claim "spot", but then you are stretching the concept of "spot" out of what it normally covers, which is another one of your pet peeves you listed above.

In most cases, you should have skills opposing skills, and abilities opposing abilities, but that is not always the most feasible or the most logical of outcomes.  In the case of "perform", while it might be nice to have an opposed skill, we don't have one that fits right.  In consequence, an ability roll works well enough.  As far as the idea of "unfair advantages" goes, I think this is a red herring -- if someone has an incredibly high perform skill, then there is no reason why their disguise shouldn't be virtually flawless to an observer (think of modern makeup and costuming in movies -- an actor can go in and become completely unrecognizable when the makeup is complete).  Additionally, however, a low level player with a high INT or WIS ought to have a chance to see through a relatively poor disguise, regardless of whether they have any points in a skill like "spot".  By not having it an opposed "spot" check, you also avoid the use of things like clairaudience/clairvoyance allowing people to penetrate disguises (after all, enhanced spot and listen shouldn't necessarily give any insight into a good disguise).

While I understand what you're saying, I don't entirely agree - the disadvantages that come from rolling an ability score vs a skill score is just too far to bridge. A character can very easily get a skill into the twenties without having to invest much effort - a character cannot do the same for an ability score. That would make it virtually impossible for a character with very high wisdom or intelligence to see through the disguise of a person with only moderate or even mediocre perform.

The best solution to this problem would be to have all skills come in pairs, so that they could be easily used and countered in a clear and easily understood fashion. Unfortunately that isn't the case, so sometimes stretches are necessary in order to overcome what would otherwise be a vastly unfair advantage-disadvantage.

[Mcskinns]

  As far as the idea of "unfair advantages" goes, I think this is a red herring -- if someone has an incredibly high perform skill, then there is no reason why their disguise shouldn't be virtually flawless to an observer (think of modern makeup and costuming in movies -- an actor can go in and become completely unrecognizable when the makeup is complete).  Additionally, however, a low level player with a high INT or WIS ought to have a chance to see through a relatively poor disguise, regardless of whether they have any points in a skill like "spot".  By not having it an opposed "spot" check, you also avoid the use of things like clairaudience/clairvoyance allowing people to penetrate disguises (after all, enhanced spot and listen shouldn't necessarily give any insight into a good disguise).

and here I have to disagree greatly, while I sometimes find it hard to recognize an actor in make up, my fiance seems to have an uncanny ability to take the most miniscule detail in a characters face and within moments know who they are, or at least spew out a half dozen movies they were in to try to help me put the face to a more familiar setting.   And the thing that makes this most interesting to me, is that she is usually not the most perceptive person when it come to seeing things.  However, she is an artist, and perhaps her eye for minute details lends aid here.  

Which leads me to think perhaps a roll of Perform to disguise, and a roll of Perform to notice flaws in the disguise would be a more appropriate method.... though there is no doubt that a keen eye is necessary to recognize a forged piece of art, so again I can understand where spot would be a reasonable assumption.    Lastly, in the case of disguise, it covers numerous aspects of a character.  And despite how much we may seek to alter our voices, its not that hard to recognize the voice of someone you speak to almost daily.  There are just too many variables and methods of detecting a flaw in a disguise to be able to recreate such in game.

[DrXavierTColtrane]

The description of the bard class ("spy") indicates to me that there is this idea latent in the game. Moreover, perform seems to be the natural associated skill because it *is* more than merely physical to pass as someone you are not.

A basic outline of how it might work (with no idea of how difficult it would be or whether it ought to be implemented):

Disguises are items that can be bought similar to traps. Disguises that change genders, races, etc. increase the DC of using the disguise successfully, which is compared to the perform level of the person attempting the disguise. Each time a disguised person interacts with another character, the DC is re-rolled once each turn of interaction (say) and modified by the other character's intelligence modifier.

An interaction is talking to or being actively examined by the other character. Simply walking by need not fire a DC.

Another wrinkle would be if the disguised person is known without disguise by the examining person, he or she suffers some huge penalty to the DC.

Thus, passing for someone very similar to yourself to someone who does not know you is very trivial. Passing for someone of a different race and gender would be much more difficult and require a very high perform level. (Although some very expensive disguise kits could add to the perform of the person using them.)

As a counter, there could be a feat, rather than a skill, that causes someone to detect disguises much more easily. So, for example, garda or other people needing to recognize spies could take the feat.

[Arawn]

It occurs to me that perhaps the counter to Perform might not more naturally be Concentration, not Spot. Perform is trying to mislead, misdirect, or confuse you, much like Antagonize (to which, guys, the proper counter is undoubtedly and within the game engine Concentration, not Discipline).

[Ehver]

It occurs to me that perhaps the counter to Perform might not more naturally be Concentration, not Spot. Perform is trying to mislead, misdirect, or confuse you, much like Antagonize (to which, guys, the proper counter is undoubtedly and within the game engine Concentration, not Discipline).

That would make a lot of sense, I think.

[FinalHeaven]

The first server I ever played on for any amount of time had enforced rolls between players, but it also had a clear and defined list posted on the forums for which skills countered which. It was there since the servers launch though. I still wasn't a big fan of it for a lot of reasons but it was at least easy to follow and generally fair, because everyone  played by the same rules.  Its difficult to do that after a server has been up for years fairly if you're not going to allow people to adjust their skill points.

I'd be more inclined to use rolls with other players on potm if it was like this, but because its not everyone has a different opinion on what does what. And really, if you're not enforcing something, its hard to fairly tell someone their opinion is wrong.  For me, I'd rather just roleplay. Breaking the immersion to discuss in tells why I rolled something against something else is something I'd rather just avoid.

[dark_majico]

I think it's a bad idea. There are only so many clothing options and so much detail that can be visually derived while playing. You would notice occasions where you'd want people to recognize your character, but they can't. Also consider that to have a name be completely hidden, it would have to be hidden in chat and in the player list, which would make it difficult to find and play with your friends.

As a mechanic purely for disguise, you can't alternate between having a "disguised" name and a "detected" name floating over your head. Your character only has one name. I would rather players play together respectfully (knowing that some players may get metagamed) than to have a system for disguising that is unfair and unbeatable.

I totally agree, I also think if something this complex and potentially problematic was introduced, it could kill the server if it goes wrong.

[Syl]

Heres my two cents...

Instead of trying to say what roll is for what... and what counters the roll... when it comes to disguises why don't you follow through completely IC? I'll use an old toon of mine as an example.

On a dragon lance server I played a wizard that at first didn't join the tower, and so she started to come up with many disguises.. and even made a fake persona for when she joined the tower.. In total she had like 5 disguises.. each one with diffrent color clothes... weapons completed with different accent. had skill points galor so could cover just about most areas of the spectrum. Her normal outfit was Lilly, She worked as a bar maid and then became the owner and ran it wore black and white clothes to mimic the penguine waiters. ( don't ask it was an odd yet amusing tavern).  Her second persona was a traveler I cannot recall the wore greys and purples clothes with a scotish like accent and offtenly carried a bow with her.

The point is if you want it to be believe able then you have to make it so. don't just change robes and not the color, if your character is offten seen wearing dark colors.. maybe as a disguise they could wear greens or something brighter... Or maybe try and play yourself off as an ezrite.. Green and white... can't tell you how many times some ezrite folks walked up to Monica because she was wearing a lot of green that looked just like their green.

So... sum up again... You want it to be believe able then make it look believe able, if your wearing a mask... Muffle your voice.. you often wearing dark colors well then change it up for a disguise and if you still want dark colors... Pick DIFFRENT colors... don't make your disguise look like its just a throw over coat or robes... Put some effort behind it.  the more diffrent the character looks the more believe able it is. No rolls needed.

[BahamutZ3RO]

This would be a lot of fun on Craven. Which is why it'll never happen.

[Arcibel]

This is quite random, but yesterday someone necroposted in an Italian Ravenloft NWN board. I went to see then scanned older messages, and, apparently, one of the coders of the latest incarnation of that server (I think it was Barovia online) said that he was implementing a system through which names were hidden. And players/characters, once introduced in RP to PCs and/or NPCs, could add a customized name, that is the one which was provided. I thought the thing great. It would lift many troubles of metagaming with names, and it would remove, at least quite a bit, the issues of those going in disguise or providing fake names. I am not a coder, and I do wonder if a system like this may ever be implemented on POTM.

You have all my support. I think that the sign over the head gives a very big space for metagaming. In my last server i suggested this but.... it's a sad story.

You should ask to god(Maradona) and pope francis to support you.

//Argentina es lo más grande, ché. "El diego" y dios te lo darán todo.

[Destinysdesire]

Heres my two cents...

Instead of trying to say what roll is for what... and what counters the roll... when it comes to disguises why don't you follow through completely IC? I'll use an old toon of mine as an example.

On a dragon lance server I played a wizard that at first didn't join the tower, and so she started to come up with many disguises.. and even made a fake persona for when she joined the tower.. In total she had like 5 disguises.. each one with diffrent color clothes... weapons completed with different accent. had skill points galor so could cover just about most areas of the spectrum. Her normal outfit was Lilly, She worked as a bar maid and then became the owner and ran it wore black and white clothes to mimic the penguine waiters. ( don't ask it was an odd yet amusing tavern).  Her second persona was a traveler I cannot recall the wore greys and purples clothes with a scotish like accent and offtenly carried a bow with her.

The point is if you want it to be believe able then you have to make it so. don't just change robes and not the color, if your character is offten seen wearing dark colors.. maybe as a disguise they could wear greens or something brighter... Or maybe try and play yourself off as an ezrite.. Green and white... can't tell you how many times some ezrite folks walked up to Monica because she was wearing a lot of green that looked just like their green.

So... sum up again... You want it to be believe able then make it look believe able, if your wearing a mask... Muffle your voice.. you often wearing dark colors well then change it up for a disguise and if you still want dark colors... Pick DIFFRENT colors... don't make your disguise look like its just a throw over coat or robes... Put some effort behind it.  the more diffrent the character looks the more believe able it is. No rolls needed.

Sadly Syl, this does not stop metagaming, people outright assume no matter what your wearing that they can ID your character as if they had known them for fifty years. I have a char that hasn't been around for 2 months, SHOULD be presumed dead, and yet still I am told without a doubt a person knows exactly who I am...yeah....this still happens, disguise or name changes should be something looked into, its just too easy to metagame information.

[Arcibel]

I think that developers staff has to manifestate about this. It's ilogical discuss something that probably doesn't have a probability to be developed.

Glam rock, a plebiscite would be perfect to know the position of the comunity about this.

[JediMindTrix]

Hello,

The system Arelith uses, which I have seen vaguely mentioned in this thread, works as follows: Anyone can attempt to disguise themselves. Disguise checks are either Perform or Bluff, whichever is highest, versus a Spot roll. These checks are only ran if a PC uses *looks* within a few feet and facing a character. All characters that are in Disguise have "(Disguised)" added to the end of their name. Sending a tell to a player's account name works the same way, and a -playerlist command reveals the characters real names. This is used to find and play with your friends as much as Arelith's Speedy Messenger System (which will find a disguised target using their real name). This system works, but is not without flaws.

("Disguised") is a double-edged sword. Some people use it to metagame, others use -playerlist to metagame. On the other hand, it makes it easier to find your friends.
It also has led to Spot being used far more often than Listen ever is, due to it's mechanical advantages.
Some people have used it to silly effect, but these are typically mitigated by DMs.

There are other flaws I do not want to get into for time reasons, but all-in-all, after playing there for years, I would classify it as a boon to RP. It certainly allowed for far more RP hooks.

Since SetName(); does not function on PC's, the only way to implement a system like this that I can see, or has ever been successfully pulled off, is via NWNx (see above link).

-Cheers!