Author Topic: Mueling  (Read 4639 times)

Iluvatar

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Mueling
« on: April 24, 2015, 08:06:55 AM »
We have spoken a lot about ninja looting in the last few days and now that it seem to have calm down I'd like to take this opportunity to talk about something else which is mueling,

Mueling IS illegal but for some reason I get the feeling that many people still do it. I might be wrong, I might be right, but the point I want to make is this,

When someone does mueling yes I agree It's nice to have super gear right off at the start though, it's not fair for the other player who works hard to find their and buy their gear legitimately.

Also mueling is killing the game in way, I don't know for you but when I play a game I need a goal, no goal no game. The goal here is RP so it's kind of hard to get rid of it though getting gear, dealing it is a goal in it's own

way. Dealing the gear with merchant generate RP which can give opportunity for more  RP later on.

Mueling also make everything easier, once I don't know for you but when I play a too easy game I usually don't play for a very long time since there is no challenge. Here again mueling is just killing the game, not for

everyone in the server but for the people mueling.


I'm not trying to start a debate here since mueling IS already illegal and will remain illegal, I just want to know your feeling on this, I have the feeling many people does it. I blame no one in particular, but in general I

somewhat get this odd feeling that many people are doing it.

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emptyanima

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Re: Mueling
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2015, 08:12:22 AM »
There is a script that fires whenever this takes place, and the DMs are notified. I am not sure if the message will persist until a DM sees to it however. I would need a DM to give the last word on that. :)

Chronox

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Re: Mueling
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2015, 08:28:04 AM »

Also mueling is killing the game in way, I don't know for you but when I play a game I need a goal, no goal no game. The goal here is RP so it's kind of hard to get rid of it though getting gear, dealing it is a goal in it's own

I'm not trying to start a debate here since mueling IS already illegal and will remain illegal, I just want to know your feeling on this, I have the feeling many people does it. I blame no one in particular, but in general I

somewhat get this odd feeling that many people are doing it.

 99% of people won't/don't/can't muel, and I've never met anyone who did and didn't get caught. As well, starting a thread IS starting a debate, and I don't think anyone is going to have the contrary opinion to this. What you might be confusing for mueling is maybe people playing the same builds or characters as they did previously? It might also just be the fact that some people are just very good at getting gear, or are very well connected, both things you can't "punish".

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Re: Mueling
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2015, 08:33:43 AM »
It might also just be the fact that some people are just very good at getting gear, or are very well connected, both things you can't "punish".

Or lucky! That one day a merchant decides to sell a +5 mighty bow for cheap in the outskirts, or you wander into an empty crypts with max loot left over; things just work out like that sometimes.

emptyanima

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Re: Mueling
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2015, 08:35:18 AM »
It might also just be the fact that some people are just very good at getting gear, or are very well connected, both things you can't "punish".

Or lucky! That one day a merchant decides to sell a +5 mighty bow for cheap in the outskirts, or you wander into an empty crypts with max loot left over; things just work out like that sometimes.

Both of these are good points! :)

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Re: Mueling
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2015, 08:38:37 AM »
If you guys see muling, simply screenshot it and report it to us.

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Re: Mueling
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2015, 08:40:35 AM »
If you guys see muling, simply screenshot it and report it to us.

What this fine fellow has said. If you think you've witnessed muling or believe someone has/is muling feel free to confide that to us via PM or in game. We can investigate the situation.

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Re: Mueling
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2015, 08:42:30 AM »
And you can send it to the CC if you want to remain anonymous to our DM overlords. Just send in rulesbreaks and it will be investigated, if things are not sent inn, you can not blame us for not dealing with it. [this goes for all rules, bad behaviour]

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Re: Mueling
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2015, 08:43:48 AM »
And yes, sorry if I sound a bit nasty here, if the verb is to mule, the -ing form will be muling since the final -e is not pronounced.
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Re: Mueling
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2015, 09:00:13 AM »
I think the culprit that you're after isn't muling, but twinking. That is, the act of higher leveled toons providing lower leveled characters with exceedingly powerful equipment.

But in all of my years, and across a number of servers, I have yet to find a good rule that properly protects against it while also appropriately considering IC gift-giving. Or that isn't ridiculous to enforce, or too demanding on the players that it breaks immersion.

Muling is patent rulebreaking, and thankfully has easy and available systems that alert and thwart it with even slightly diligent DM's. In the end, though, you have to choose your battles.

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Re: Mueling
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2015, 09:12:44 AM »
If you guys see muling, simply screenshot it and report it to us.

As far as i understood it, it was impossible to do so? Once a character has a item it cant be shared/touched/transferred by any of their other chars, if they try to the item is instantaneously deleted and the staff is notified?

I don't really see gift giving as much of a issue either, its just a upside to having powerful friends or generous friends. The flip side to such is the people who are greedy and rob ya blind when you die and leave you corpsed. Its just one of the social aspects of the server, relationships with people bring about a multitude of outcomes. Some bad, some good.

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Re: Mueling
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2015, 09:19:25 AM »
Quote
I don't really see gift giving as much of a issue either, its just a upside to having powerful friends or generous friends. The flip side to such is the people who are greedy and rob ya blind when you die and leave you corpsed. Its just one of the social aspects of the server, relationships with people bring about a multitude of outcomes. Some bad, some good.

It's against the server rules to give out excessive gear based on OOC friendship. We've caught people doing that in the past and it resulted in punishments.

Feronius

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Re: Mueling
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2015, 09:21:29 AM »
I think the culprit that you're after isn't muling, but twinking. That is, the act of higher leveled toons providing lower leveled characters with exceedingly powerful equipment.

This. I think this thread is probably also more of a server & community discussion than a general feedback thread. Muling is already forbidden and there are systems in place against it.
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Re: Mueling
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2015, 09:28:17 AM »
I think the culprit that you're after isn't muling, but twinking. That is, the act of higher leveled toons providing lower leveled characters with exceedingly powerful equipment.

But in all of my years, and across a number of servers, I have yet to find a good rule that properly protects against it while also appropriately considering IC gift-giving. Or that isn't ridiculous to enforce, or too demanding on the players that it breaks immersion.

Muling is patent rulebreaking, and thankfully has easy and available systems that alert and thwart it with even slightly diligent DM's. In the end, though, you have to choose your battles.

This is what it sounds like you are describing, Illuvater, not muling.

Muling isn't common, and the DM's are really quick about reacting to the notifications - even if you're just being rescued by someone's alt. For example, Pippin Bluckleberry rescued Zidonne once, and had to touch his sword and shield to get me and all my droppings to the cleric for a heallin'. Later down the line, Cael (who is involved with my character directly) also had to grab my body and my things and run off to get me raised. The script went off and the DM asked him about the gear even though it was an obvious rescue. So this shows that the DM's are ON TOP of it, and question even rescues to make sure there's no offenses being committed. This is just one example of me witnessing this (and I should probably stop dying), so I really don't think that muling is very commonly gotten away with.

Twinking on the other hand... (is it really called that?) is common. I try to avoid it, even though all my urges are for giving and helping, I know that it can spoil the game for people so I tend to personally, plan out gifts or affordable gear to particular characters by achievements and intervals. But hey, we can't all have that kind of restraint - not even me. : / I just like giving thing away!

If you guys see muling, simply screenshot it and report it to us.

As far as i understood it, it was impossible to do so? Once a character has a item it cant be shared/touched/transferred by any of their other chars, if they try to the item is instantaneously deleted and the staff is notified?
Staff is notified, the item isn't deleted.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 09:30:09 AM by Tycat »

Iluvatar

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Re: Mueling
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2015, 09:44:21 AM »
I think the culprit that you're after isn't muling, but twinking. That is, the act of higher leveled toons providing lower leveled characters with exceedingly powerful equipment.

But in all of my years, and across a number of servers, I have yet to find a good rule that properly protects against it while also appropriately considering IC gift-giving. Or that isn't ridiculous to enforce, or too demanding on the players that it breaks immersion.

Muling is patent rulebreaking, and thankfully has easy and available systems that alert and thwart it with even slightly diligent DM's. In the end, though, you have to choose your battles.

You're probably right here, "twinking" is likely to be what's happening.

Many point of view here and it's nice to look at this from different side. Thank you for sharing your thinking on this, I appreciate  :)

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Feronius

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Re: Mueling
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2015, 09:55:06 AM »
Twinking in MMOs is generally where you use your higher level character to gather gear and equip a low level character (usually one of your own) with the best items possible, giving them a distinct advantage over characters of the same approximate level. Usually to rack up serious scores in low level PvP brackets and stuff like that. I am not sure if it is the right term in this case, but it's close enough to what is most likely the real culprit here.

In this case twinking refers to occasions where players pass a lot of gold to another player's character or are in some other way being excessively charitable based more on the OoC relationship between the players than any sort of IC history shared between the characters. I think this form of 'Gold sharing' or 'Item gifting' is also against the server rules when it is done excessively without a clear roleplaying motive behind it, but unlike muling there is no easy way to keep track of this through an automated system.


Although it is also possible the players are simply farming bounties or doing a lot of delivery quests. And because there are so many PC merchants with rare items, getting geared up quickly is often not that difficult.
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Re: Mueling
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2015, 10:05:18 AM »
As Feronius said, twinking is a lot harder to prove then muling itself, since twinking can fall back on the notion that "gifting" is what is happening.  Some solutions have been offered, and you could utilize one of them if you feel muling/twinking is happening.
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Iluvatar

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Re: Mueling
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2015, 10:15:44 AM »
Yeah... twinking is really hard to prove, the only thing we rely on is honesty, if some people want to play and give gold to their friends new character so be it since we can't really do anything more about it.

Mueling, twinking is a risk to take and eventually those who do it will get caught one way or an other.

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Re: Mueling
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2015, 10:17:28 AM »
Yeah... twinking is really hard to prove, the only thing we rely on is honesty, if some people want to play and give gold to their friends new character so be it since we can't really do anything more about it.

Mueling, twinking is a risk to take and eventually those who do it will get caught one way or an other.

It's not hard to prove at all. We can track the ownership history of any item.
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Iluvatar

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Re: Mueling
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2015, 10:25:11 AM »
Yeah... twinking is really hard to prove, the only thing we rely on is honesty, if some people want to play and give gold to their friends new character so be it since we can't really do anything more about it.

Mueling, twinking is a risk to take and eventually those who do it will get caught one way or an other.

It's not hard to prove at all. We can track the ownership history of any item.

You can track ownership history sure but, proving that someone got an item through twiking is something much harder. If there is an easy way to prove the twinking it's self, I don't know it

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Re: Mueling
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2015, 10:26:55 AM »
I've been debating on whether or not to add to this discussion because, from my experience, Twinking happens all the time on this server. Overall it isn't a huge deal because most items are let's face it, mundane. The best armor, still gets hit on a 20 roll, which for some reason PtoM creatures sure get a lot of. Extra spell slot item- well it still won't be enough when you really need it. The problem isn't twinking, the problem here, is that players make new characters, and play with the same people they played with their last toon. Sometimes, even jumping in on the same story plots that killed their last toon. I've seen it over and over, with just about every faction that exists. It's ingrained on this, and most other servers. Is it fair? No. Is life fair? No. get over it and accept it, and try and have a good time. Make some new friends, and try to be aware of it. That's all you can do. This is a game after all, not a frustration fest. Your toons story is going to be different that the next. Some people get a silver spoon, others have to scratch and claw their way up. Many never make it. That is as real as it gets.

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Re: Mueling
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2015, 10:31:39 AM »
Yeah... twinking is really hard to prove, the only thing we rely on is honesty, if some people want to play and give gold to their friends new character so be it since we can't really do anything more about it.

Mueling, twinking is a risk to take and eventually those who do it will get caught one way or an other.

It's not hard to prove at all. We can track the ownership history of any item.

I know crafters and merchants run the risk of mueling even though its not their intent, especially crafters playing on their alts, i know there are a few weapons and sets of armor none of my other toons can touch that my fighter made because of such thing. (!!!! I just got an idea To the wish list!!!)

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Re: Mueling
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2015, 10:32:37 AM »
We tend to take that sort of thing into consideration if we see an alert for a violation, but better safe than sorry.
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Re: Mueling
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2015, 10:51:46 AM »
Quote
I don't really see gift giving as much of a issue either, its just a upside to having powerful friends or generous friends. The flip side to such is the people who are greedy and rob ya blind when you die and leave you corpsed. Its just one of the social aspects of the server, relationships with people bring about a multitude of outcomes. Some bad, some good.

It's against the server rules to give out excessive gear based on OOC friendship. We've caught people doing that in the past and it resulted in punishments.

How do you determine if it is excessive though?

No one was buying any of the scrolls i had been saving over a few months so i just gave them all (two bags or so of varying stacks, and spell level) to a new sorc char i began traveling with (who i know oocly), since it also benefited me for them to use such as well. In my case, i couldn't use such, the items weren't selling and weren't worth all that much at the vistani. So i gave them to someone who can make use of such when traveling with me. Isn't the first time iv done such or even with people i dont know oocly, if i cant unload gear and its weight/size becomes a issue i will tend to just give it away. First to those i know icly, and then to strangers who reply first. Usually consumables, as most other items have a decent enough market. Among hoards of scrolls, i tend to collect bolts, bullets and some other things and just give them to people who can actually use them since the alternative is sell them for next to nothing and let the server eat them most the time.

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Re: Mueling
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2015, 11:48:59 AM »
Muling isn't common, and the DM's are really quick about reacting to the notifications - even if you're just being rescued by someone's alt. For example, Pippin Bluckleberry rescued Zidonne once, and had to touch his sword and shield to get me and all my droppings to the cleric for a heallin'. Later down the line, Cael (who is involved with my character directly) also had to grab my body and my things and run off to get me raised. The script went off and the DM asked him about the gear even though it was an obvious rescue. So this shows that the DM's are ON TOP of it, and question even rescues to make sure there's no offenses being committed. This is just one example of me witnessing this (and I should probably stop dying), so I really don't think that muling is very commonly gotten away with.

Actually, the muling script going off is frustratingly common, and 90% of it is due to the situation you described or due to people twinking, and isn't actually a muling rulebreak. I'm looking at all of you dungeongers who have a main character that gives someone's alt an item, and then you go dungeon with them on your alt, and then pick up the item again when that person dies. Each time this happens I need to stop what I'm doing and go and look at it and make sure it's actually a rulebreak.

As for twinking, that in itself isn't against the rules. High levels taking low levels dungeoning in their massive dungeoning parties isn't against the rules. Low levels can get kitted out through IC means by going along with these dungeon groups. It might be an issue and something worth discussing though.