Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?

[DrXavierTColtrane]

My two cents:

1) Every time I've tried to get in the Gaping Wound it's been locked (both doors). When I pick the locks, it says a specific key is needed. I just assumed that was *my* problem (only characters with the right key could get in).

2) I think the more areas the better, provided the areas have a point. Even though it may be more realistic to have lots of "normal" places, it seems as though the trade-off in say, server overhead and dispersement of PCs is not worth it. As a newbie, however, I again assume that most areas that seem kind of pointless do so because I don't yet understand their true function.

3) Since the city locks up at night, it makes perfect sense to me that someone would operate an inn right outside the gates for late-arriving travellers.

4) I'd rather the developers work on new stuff that excites them (and will consequently excite players) rather than tweaking areas that are pretty functional as is.

5)  I *would* like it if NPCs were more informative. Perhaps I just need to adjust my original-game-based expectations that every NPC (or at least every individually named NPC) will have useful information, but so far finding out information legitimately for a newbie I've found to be pretty difficult. This may be to encourage roleplay, but I hate to go around pestering PCs with elementary questions that residents would presumably know.

6) One idea I had was the bookstore could sell books with crafting recipes, for example, rather than (as near as I can tell) almost exclusively bard-type stories.

[Arawn]

My two cents:

1) Every time I've tried to get in the Gaping Wound it's been locked (both doors). When I pick the locks, it says a specific key is needed. I just assumed that was *my* problem (only characters with the right key could get in).

The Gaping Wound is only open when it is run by players. At the moment, there are no players running it.

2) I think the more areas the better, provided the areas have a point. Even though it may be more realistic to have lots of "normal" places, it seems as though the trade-off in say, server overhead and dispersement of PCs is not worth it. As a newbie, however, I again assume that most areas that seem kind of pointless do so because I don't yet understand their true function.

While server overhead is an issue, dispersal of PCs is not. Players tend to find areas to congregate; the Quartier Publique, the Mist Camp, and the Outskirts are the three largest at the moment, though this could of course change.

3) Since the city locks up at night, it makes perfect sense to me that someone would operate an inn right outside the gates for late-arriving travellers.

Yes.

4) I'd rather the developers work on new stuff that excites them (and will consequently excite players) rather than tweaking areas that are pretty functional as is.

An important point; this speaks to my earlier concern that we're trying to make a problem out of nothing here.

5)  I *would* like it if NPCs were more informative. Perhaps I just need to adjust my original-game-based expectations that every NPC (or at least every individually named NPC) will have useful information, but so far finding out information legitimately for a newbie I've found to be pretty difficult. This may be to encourage roleplay, but I hate to go around pestering PCs with elementary questions that residents would presumably know.

This is something currently being worked on!

6) One idea I had was the bookstore could sell books with crafting recipes, for example, rather than (as near as I can tell) almost exclusively bard-type stories.

You should post that in the suggestions thread. I know developers are working on this too.

[herkles]

What do the DMs think of moving the Prancing Nymph Gentleman's club to dementlieu? As I think that such a gentleman's club would fit better in Dementlieu then it does in Barovia.

[Heretic]

Before you guys go further in this discussion, we will not remove the Lady's Rest nor will we remove the rooms there. The Western Outskirts is a hub and will remain one. We have no plans to change that. Feel free to discuss other inns though.

Haha, feels like 2006 this discussion...( for devs & dms, a little dinosaur server lore...   )

Anyhow, good observations, but I agree about the Western outskirts, it will remain a hub.

[APorg]

You shouldn't compare modern inn numbers/concentration with that of older times; things have changed. Back then, inns weren't just a place to drink: they were the cheap pubs, restaurants and cheap hotels of the day. If you had no place to live, you'd scrape up enough coin to sleep in the common room of your local inn. If you didn't have the coin, you'd sleep in the inn's stable. I suspect that in medieval times, 8 inns for 1500 people is not so unrealistic.

TL;DR: inns were the medieval Facebook.

[emptyanima]

I have a suggestion about the Nymph, Move the Prancing Nymph to Dementlieu. This style of 'gentleman's club' would not really exist in such a medieval town. On the other hand it would fit Dementlieu much better IMO.

Not to get too off topic, but I thought the Blooming Rose in Port-a-Lucine would be a gentlemen's club because of the name! xD I think the Prancing Nymph is good in Barovia, however.

[Feronius]

You did a nice job building The Drowned Rat by the way Vengeance, as I said I really like those windows with a view. Vallaki has many great taverns, there are just too many of them to choose from.
Having options is good, but 9 taverns, a hospice and several sanctuaries is overkill. A few of them have no unique purpose and do not add much to Vallaki, outside of being part of the server history.

That is why I am suggesting to turn The Broken Bell Inn into a theatre and to give The Angler's Dive more of a fish shop vibe. They would keep their unique appeal, but would no longer compete with the other taverns.

this speaks to my earlier concern that we're trying to make a problem out of nothing here.

I strongly disagree, especially on a server as old as this one not updating older areas or a lot of redundant areas can become a real problem over time.

Every so often you see new players creating a confused post or thread, a large part of this confusion comes from information from NPCs or nostalgic areas that have lost their relevance.
Making it easier for new players (and players in general) to find other roleplayers to interact with, particularly during night time, is possibly the best way to help players help eachother.

What do the DMs think of moving the Prancing Nymph Gentleman's club to dementlieu? As I think that such a gentleman's club would fit better in Dementlieu then it does in Barovia.

Perhaps an equally unusual suggestion, but how about merging The Prancing Nymph with The Blue Water Inn? Using The Blue Water Inn's location, as there are already plenty of places to spend the night in the Slums.

The sourcebook mentions complimentary tsuika from the Romulich distillery in one's room every night at The Blue Water Inn, so it does not sound too farfetched for them to have a hand in the management of that establishment. Although I admit that I have no idea what the official background story behind The Blue Water Inn is on this server or who owns it. The place could potentially have a basement where noblemen hang out with their escorts and gamble away their wolf-fang in card games and so on.

[Arawn]

I strongly disagree, especially on a server as old as this one not updating older areas can become a real problem over time.

Every so often you see new players creating a confused post or thread, a large part of this confusion comes from information from NPCs or nostalgic areas that have lost their relevance.
Making it easier for new players (and players in general) to find other roleplayers to interact with, particularly during night time, is possibly the best way to help players help eachother.

You'll have to take my word for it that from everything I've seen as a DM this is a non-issue. People don't congregate in the city at night without a special purpose; they just don't. The number of inns doesn't change or impact that. Also, these areas are updated when it is appropriate.

Perhaps a strange suggestion, but how about merging The Prancing Nymph with The Blue Water Inn? Using The Blue Water Inn's location, as there are already plenty of places to spend the night in the Slums.

Merging the richest, poshest inn in Vallaki with a bordello? I don't think that makes sense.

[Feronius]

Perhaps a strange suggestion, but how about merging The Prancing Nymph with The Blue Water Inn? Using The Blue Water Inn's location, as there are already plenty of places to spend the night in the Slums.

Merging the richest, poshest inn in Vallaki with a bordello? I don't think that makes sense.

The Prancing Nymph is not a bordello (or at least it claims not to be), it is a strange mixture between a gentleman's club and a gambling den.

Perhaps merge was not the right word. Remove The Prancing Nymph and instead introduce the popular elements from it in other taverns instead.
Add a gambling den or back room for playing cards to the Tigan's Rest and a gentleman's lounge with high society escorts to The Blue Water Inn?


Perhaps the fact there are too many taverns to choose from in Vallaki is the reason why they are underused, currently The Lady's Rest is the only inn where you are (somewhat) guaranteed to bump into other players.

[FinalHeaven]

I don't see an issue.

The amount of Inns adds variety for those players who do decide to RP within Vallaki the odd time.  But for the most part unless you're in one of the factions that has a base there, the city RP is just not comparable to what goes on in the outskirts in terms of numbers.  The Outskirts is the hub, Vallaki isn't.  Can't say I see why this is a problem.

[Exordium]

I think these are fair observations. I also do see some merit to the notation that it is possible, that the quantity of dwelling grounds for PCs inside the city do dilute the potential in-city playerbase. It's decently unlikely to run to other players if you just pick an inn out of necessity, in random. While I would doubt that the inner city did see much more use even if it did have a lower amount of inns, there is a light feel of superfluity. If you just head to an in-town inn with your party to keep the night, you probably wouldn't run to another party even if there was another party keeping the night in the town.

But it really boils down to being a question of balance in between flavor and atmosphere and encouragement to flock. Would the city really see enough PCs for anyone to run to each other at random anyway?

You shouldn't compare modern inn numbers/concentration with that of older times; things have changed. Back then, inns weren't just a place to drink: they were the cheap pubs, restaurants and cheap hotels of the day. If you had no place to live, you'd scrape up enough coin to sleep in the common room of your local inn. If you didn't have the coin, you'd sleep in the inn's stable. I suspect that in medieval times, 8 inns for 1500 people is not so unrealistic.

TL;DR: inns were the medieval Facebook.

Being geeky enough, this actually got me thinking about how many were there in fact. It took quite a while to google up anything even remotely reliable beyond just second-hand guesses, but interpolating from this and this, it seems fair to assume that the ratio of people-to-inns could have wildly fluctuated from anywhere between few hundred to 500, depending greatly on the city's prominence, purpose, proximity to other cities and so forth. So Vallaki's ratio, being a trade town, could be realistic indeed, even if a little pronounced!

[Feronius]

I appreciate all the feedback, but I do find it a bit odd there are players and even staff members who reply just to tell me these concerns are not real, there is even a staff member trolling the thread. Come on guys.
When a player creates a constructive feedback thread and a number of other players provide similar feedback in response, I believe there might be something that can be improved or that is at least worth discussing.


Just to clarify, this was never a discussion about the creating a new server hub or about being able to compete with the Western Outskirts. This is just a feedback post on the subject of taverns in Vallaki.
I noticed there is an overkill of taverns in Vallaki and how characters keep missing eachother because there are so many different places to choose from to spend the night. So I made a thread about it.

Especially if you play a low level native character you will often find yourself having to pick one establishment to spend the rest of the night at (which is more than an hour in real time) or to log out/ swap characters until it is dawn again. I think it would be real nice to increase the odds of bumping into another character, even if it is only a little bit. If it does incidentally encourage the creation of new secondary mini hubs, great! But that would just be a happy accident, I just created a feedback thread because I noticed something that could easily be improved upon and that would potentially create a lot of roleplaying opportunities in the process. There is no point in having so many taverns if all it does is discourage the use of taverns in general.

[A normal snake]

You're missing my point. These zones aren't actively detracting from anything. If we want to get harsh about cutting things, where do we stop? Do we cut out entire segments of the server that are RP-only? Personally I think having more areas available to RP in allows for more player initiatives in starting things.

[EO]

I appreciate all the feedback, but I do find it a bit odd there are players and even staff members who reply just to tell me these concerns are not real, there is even a staff member trolling the thread. Come on guys.
When a player creates a constructive feedback thread and a number of other players provide similar feedback in response, I believe there might be something that can be improved or that is at least worth discussing.

Just to clarify, this was never a discussion about the creating a new server hub or about being able to compete with the Western Outskirts. This is a feedback post on the subject of taverns in Vallaki.
I noticed there is an overkill of taverns in Vallaki and how characters keep missing eachother because there are so many different places to choose from to spend the night. So I made a thread about it.

Especially if you play a low level native character you will often find yourself having to pick one establishment to spend the rest of the night at (which is more than an hour in real time) or to log out/ swap characters until it is dawn again. I think it would be real nice to increase the odds of bumping into another character, even if it is only a little bit. If it does incidentally encourage the creation of new secondary mini hubs, great! But that would just be a happy accident, I just created a feedback thread because I noticed something that could easily be improved upon and that would potentially create a lot of roleplaying opportunities in the process. There is no point in having so many taverns if all it does is discourage the use of taverns in general.

I'll reiterate a point I make often when these topics come up; a point that's not very popular unfortunately. This is a volunteer project; none of us are paid to do this, and on top of that most (all?) of us have outside responsibilities (families, jobs, life outside the game). This means that we have limited time to dedicate to the project. In that limited time we'd rather do things we want to do. If a developer is interested in that project and there is a consensus among the team that it's for the better than it'll be done, otherwise it won't.

You can discuss it; some of the points made in this topic are relevant and I agree with some of the issues raised but personally I don't want to work on that because I'd rather work on other things I enjoy more and/or that I feel will have a bigger impact on the server. This goes for any sort of topic like that; sometimes we pick up on them and implement the ideas sometimes we don't.

[Dhark]

1) Perhaps Vallaki has too many inns and taverns realistically for a 1500 people town; that's a fair point. Mind you, each of those inns/taverns has a history and at times a second purpose.

That's what, like five taverns? So one tavern per 300 people?

I used to live in a small town of 13,000, with 52 pubs. That's 250 people to a pub.

Don't think this is weird at all, especially for a trade hub with people passing through. What's weird to me is a 1500 person town having enough nobles to fill a nobles' quarter. That's weird.

I also grew up in a small market town with 12 bars (not all pubs, some were social clubs) which equates to aprox  382.5 people per pub. The reason was because, like Vallaki, its a trade hub and a stop off on a major highway.

I love the fact you can hide away in a Inn and discuss something without having to share it with half the server, or actually get some good honest "yokle" RP without having to deal with those Ladul outlanders.

[Dread]

Perhaps a strange suggestion, but how about merging The Prancing Nymph with The Blue Water Inn? Using The Blue Water Inn's location, as there are already plenty of places to spend the night in the Slums.

Merging the richest, poshest inn in Vallaki with a bordello? I don't think that makes sense.

The Prancing Nymph is not a bordello (or at least it claims not to be), it is a strange mixture between a gentleman's club and a gambling den.

Perhaps merge was not the right word. Remove The Prancing Nymph and instead introduce the popular elements from it in other taverns instead.
Add a gambling den or back room for playing cards to the Tigan's Rest and a gentleman's lounge with high society escorts to The Blue Water Inn?


Perhaps the fact there are too many taverns to choose from in Vallaki is the reason why they are underused, currently The Lady's Rest is the only inn where you are (somewhat) guaranteed to bump into other players.

If you look at the conversation that Angelika gives you, she says that it's 'a gentleman's club and a casino' with kind of a wink-wink, and a nudge-nudge.

[herkles]

I think that the prancing Nymph would do much better in port-a-lucine.

[Feronius]

You're missing my point. These zones aren't actively detracting from anything. If we want to get harsh about cutting things, where do we stop? Do we cut out entire segments of the server that are RP-only? Personally I think having more areas available to RP in allows for more player initiatives in starting things.

I think we should remove the entire residential district, all of the shops there are only flavour and there's no where for people to RP and it adds 20 seconds to getting to the ferry. In fact, I think the ferry should be 1 zone away from the outskirts.

That was your only contribution to this thread until just now, can you really blame me for missing your point in a reply like that? Too much sarcasm, trolling or whatever that is called.
And no, I do not think we need to be too harsh about cutting areas from the server, but in the case of taverns I believe having too many taverns in one area is bad for business for all of them and not very beneficial on a roleplaying server.


I hear what you are saying EO and I am aware of that. There were a few suggestions that are easy enough to implement though, which (to my knowledge) would only require minimal effort from the development team.

If The Drowned Rat and The Gaping Wound are locked again (although I think that has already been done for the latter) and if the door to The Broken Bell Inn's theatre is unlocked, this would already reduce the number of taverns to 7 instead of 9 and significantly reduce the competition / similarities between taverns without really detracting anything from the server. Those would probably not be too time consuming changes to implement.
I guess the Angler's Dive can just be left as is, apparently many players did not even know of its existence until seeing the name in the list.

[DM Vinculum]

DMs have a different perspective occasionally due to our "birds eye view". I've been a DM here for a few years and can honestly tell you that I've never perceived any issues with our taverns. Honestly, in terms of lore and flavor they aren't that similar.

Tigan's Rest ----> Thieves and shady individuals
The Prancing Nymph -----> Gambling & exotic dancing
The Gaping Wound -----> Fight Pit
Broken Bell -----> Theatre and Barovian native-centric tavern. (In the past, off duty Garda and ethnic Barovians have made this their nightly haunt.)
Angler's Dive -----> Ethnic Gundarakite tavern. (They aren't really welcomed anyplace else)
Lady's Rest -----> Outlander friendly tavern in Outskirts
The Drain ------> The ONLY Caliban/Outcast neutral tavern.
The Blue Water -----> Noble/Wealthy RP. Different sort of RP and aesthetic.
The Drowned Rat -----> Newish interior-wise. Prime for player initiative.

What you guys might see as redundant I can tell you has been the launching pad for various IC gangs, groups, like-minded PCs and plots. Do some sit mostly empty for weeks/months at a time? Sure. But like everything else; it gives players with the right concept, and the proper initiative a place to spread out and grow their characters/stories. All of these locations have spawned some really great player-factions or groupings over the years that stand out as being quite fun and memorable in my mind as both a player and DM.

[Marsi]

My two cents -

There are a lot of areas in Ravenloft you could argue spread the player-base thin and hinder spontaneous roleplay, Inns least of all. If you look at a server like Arelith, the server is geographically (can I use that term talking about NWN mapping? lol) structured in order to foster a closer, more intimate player population. This is important and works for Arelith because on that server the yoke of creating stories is pretty much entirely on the player; it's plausible and commonplace for a PC to go his or her entire lifetime without any meaningful DM interaction. That isn't the case here on Ravenloft, where there is a far more active DM presence which very much relegates this need of conservative space. Where the population goes and doesn't go is very dynamic, and is more often than not determined by the eyes in the sky.

So basically what I'm trying to say is that knocking off Inns in order streamline RP seems to me to appeal to a server-direction that the DEVs long ago decided against in favour of another.

[EO]

If The Drowned Rat and The Gaping Wound are locked again (although I think that has already been done for the latter) and if the door to The Broken Bell Inn's theatre is unlocked, this would already reduce the number of taverns to 7 instead of 9 and significantly reduce the competition / similarities between taverns without really detracting anything from the server. That would not be very time consuming to implement. I guess the Angler's Dive can just be left as is, apparently many players did not even know it exists.

Keep in mind that removing an area is removing someone's work and contribution. The Gaping Wound is supposed to be for events only and has been that way since it was created; it's 100% player staffed and serves an underground purpose. The Drowned Rat is a bit redundant but it was already in the module; we just added an interior. It doesn't really hurt anything to have it there, same as Anglers' Dive.

And you suggest adding a theater to the Broken Bell (well opening the theater); I don't see how that's consistent with your logic. You feel there are too many spots to roleplay in and too many inns, but you want to add a second theater when we have a functional one with its own faction already in Dementlieu. This would make them redundant and we don't have the server population to maintain two active theater troups. The Broken Bell Theater was created a long time ago when the server was still Vallaki-centric and had no other domains; it was created to generate roleplay of a different nature in the city and somewhat turn the Broken Bell into an alternate hub. Now that we have the Mist Camp and Dementlieu, we already have those alternate hubs so the Broken Bell is just another inn now and its theater can be used occasionally.

[Feronius]

Angler's Dive -----> Ethnic Gundarakite tavern. (They aren't really welcomed anyplace else)

I thought the Angler's Dive was ran by ethnic Barovians? I always saw Tigan's Rest as the go to place for Gundarakite citizens.

[Dread]

The Angler's Dive housed the Den of Knaves way back when (the first thieves' guild), as well as a vampire coven loyal to the Count. To my knowledge, there's never been Gundarakite business in that building. You're probably thinking about a Gundarakite hangout spot that used to be in the docks of Vallaki, but got moved.

[Syl]

On the topic of Inns. I avtually like the broken bell and blue water inn... Each one allows special things.... kinda... When I am on my higher levels i tend ot stay in the Broken bell since less people are in there so any RP happening between people everyone is more likely to get exp, that and it can be used for more than just a tavern as pointed out.. if the theater is ever reopened.

THe blue water as also pointed out is the rich and noble tavern.. going there you need to look the part since I know when i was reciving training on my old fighter, they had to dress the part.. be in nice clothes polite... and so on since walking in there with armor on unless your a guard on duty at that moment investigating something, you will be looked at and or thrown out..

And there is a pud in the docks... bloody thing is difficult to find, to be honest lol but it's there. very small but it's mainly for fisherman. ( to the extent of my knowledge.)

there are not really that many taverns since there are only four major ones. with a few smaller ones.. what these all allow you to do is you now have options on where to meet.... you want to form a group of shady people? use tigens... if your a group of evil cultists... use a diffrent one... these provide places to meet and do diffrent things so you don't have to risk someone opening the door on you in the lady's rest.

[Syied]

Perhaps the fact there are too many taverns to choose from in Vallaki is the reason why they are underused, currently The Lady's Rest is the only inn where you are (somewhat) guaranteed to bump into other players.

I don't entirely agree. I find The Broken Bell to be a great place to sometimes happen upon PCs, and as a place to predesignate a meeting, and as a place whence to launch quests. And there's always the chance of seeing grey ol' Mondragon roasting by the fire on his own, thereby inviting some RP with a rather (I hear) prolific character. And I imagine one's PC could always sort of cycle through relaxing at all of the inns/taverns, giving people an opportunity to run into a wider variety of PCs in a wider variety of settings than just the "regulars" at the "regular" place(s). Not to mention, the variety of taverns gives people a bunch of options for private meetings/rooming options.

Also, I like that, at no cost that I can perceive, having so many places adds to the breadth of the server play area. I've been playing rather strong for a month or so, but I've been here since some four years ago, and all this time Ravenloft's world remains quite an unexplored mystery to me, which owes to how many bloody places there are. If Vallaki only had one or two taverns instead of nine, then I wouldn't feel so daunted to go out and see what else there is in the world!