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Author Topic: Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?  (Read 11232 times)

Feronius

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Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?
« on: April 16, 2015, 09:08:58 AM »
As the title says there are simply too many taverns and other places in Vallaki to spend the night, which spreads the playerbase thin and can make it (unnecessarily) difficult to find other roleplayers at night.

Taverns, inns and similar establishments in Vallaki:
  • The Lady's Rest, Western Outskirts
  • Tigan's Rest, Slums
  • The Prancing Nymph, Slums
  • The Gaping Wound, Slums*
  • Angler's Dive, Vallaki Docks
  • The Drowned Rat, Market District
  • The Broken Bell Inn, Market District
  • The Blue Water Inn, Nobles District
  • The Drain, Vallaki Sewers

*Not always accessible to the public or closed


Other forms of shelter from the night, religious sanctuaries or hospices:
  • Vistani Camp, Western Outskirts
  • Sanctuary of the Coming Dawn, Western Outskirts
  • Sanctuary of Eternal Dawn, Slums
  • Abandoned Hospice, Slums
  • Church of Ezra, Nobles District

There are also various faction bases, abandoned homes and warehouses, the library (in the bookstore) and another three taverns that are also a single transition (a boat's ride) away from Vallaki. All places where you could also spend the night, but I purposely kept them off the lists because most of these are not always accessible (requiring a key or relying on seasonal transport) or safe to spend the night due to hostile spawns.


This still leaves 9(!) taverns and inns in Vallaki alone, which is a little bit overkill for such a small town, in my opinion. The only one of them I could find a reference to in the sourcebook is The Blue Water Inn.
I believe it would be beneficial for the server to significantly reduce this number, encouraging players to wait out the night together and making it more likely for roleplayers to bump into eachother at night.


Suggestions:
- Relocate one of the Vallaki taverns? I think Vallaki is currently the only town in Barovia with more than one tavern, as far as I know the Village of Barovia and Krezk both have only a single tavern.
- Close down or relocate The Drowned Rat? The establishment is essentially interchangeable with The Broken Bell Inn, except that it has no rentable rooms, and they are located on the same map.
- Make the NPCs in the Angler's Dive and The Drowned Rat retire for the night like they do in all the other shops in Vallaki? This would clarify that they do not accomodate staying there overnight.
(And perhaps also use this as an opportunity to move the NPC that offers the passive job as fisherman to the Angler's Dive building so that new players might have an easier time locating him?)

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 06:46:48 AM by Feronius »

Tycat

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Re: Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2015, 09:20:12 AM »
I couldn't agree more. I always got overwhelmed by how many taverns there were. But just to point out:

- The Prancing Nympth is a Gentalman's club, not a tavern/Inn (so it has a different purpose)
- The Drain has it's place, and it's vital for caliban/freaks who need a place. This should available.

- Tigen's Rest is always closed and locked up, I didn't even know it was an Inn. Same with the Gaping Wound. I think maybe Tigen's and the Wound could be one thing?

I agree about the Angler's Dive. It seems frivolous.  I keep forgetting it's even there, same as Blue Water Inn (which is way over priced, and seems "too nice" for vallaki. Maybe that should be more of a DM used establishment, and not a place you can actively rent from. IDK.

Broken Bell and the Lady's Rest seem to be the competing establishments. Now, I say that because the Fishing Lodge is on the road, and a good place to stop for the night when traveling. I also think it should cost more money to stay at the Fishing lodge than it does.

Here's my radical suggestion: Remove sleeping quarters from the Lady's Rest and keep it as only a Tavern/Bar/Eatery. GASP! this might mean that we have to all travel to the same inn!!! and Broken Bell is a nicer inn, with a lot more "Feeling" of belonging in the town/setting.

I also think that the second Morning Lord church in the town is a bit much. Maybe that can be the faction base, and not a church?

And finally, the Drowned Rat. I didn't know that was a thing. Is it really ever used?
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HellsPanda

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Re: Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2015, 09:22:22 AM »
Tigan's has never been closed except for special events. It is the surface bound criminal tavern, whre unsavory people hang.

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Re: Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2015, 09:30:07 AM »
Every time i go by Tigen's, I click on the door, and it's locked. People have told me in the past that it should be open, but it has never been open when I was passing
by it.
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Re: Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2015, 09:31:13 AM »
Every time i go by Tigen's, I click on the door, and it's locked. People have told me in the past that it should be open, but it has never been open when I was passing
by it.

There's a backdoor and a front door. Which one did you go to?

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Re: Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2015, 09:31:54 AM »
Every time i go by Tigen's, I click on the door, and it's locked. People have told me in the past that it should be open, but it has never been open when I was passing
by it.

There's a backdoor and a front door. Which one did you go to?

Uhhh... The door. <_< that said, I don't think i've noticed Two.
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Feronius

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Re: Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2015, 09:40:47 AM »
- Tigen's Rest is always closed and locked up, I didn't even know it was an Inn. Same with the Gaping Wound. I think maybe Tigen's and the Wound could be one thing?

Nope, the Tigan's Rest has always been open to the public (both doors), I think you are confusing it with The Drowned Rat, which has only recently been reopened and used to be locked.

Here's my radical suggestion: Remove sleeping quarters from the Lady's Rest and keep it as only a Tavern/Bar/Eatery. GASP! this might mean that we have to all travel to the same inn!!! and Broken Bell is a nicer inn, with a lot more "Feeling" of belonging in the town/setting.

I did consider this suggestion, but as it is the only establishment outside of the city gates it makes sense that it would offer rooms, for those that got locked outside the city gates for the night.
I believe certain establishments should remain untouched, because they appeal to a unique audience or because they offer something or provide services that the other establishments do not.

- The Lady's Rest, because it is the only establishment that is located outside of the city walls
- The Prancing Nymph, because of its unique appeal as a gambling den and its... entertainment
- The Tigan's Rest, because it caters to a unique audience (shady folks / lower class citizens)
- The Blue Water Inn, because it caters to a specific audience (nobles / wealthy merchants)
- The Drain, because it is the only place on the list accessible for a PC with a high outcast rating.

I do like The Broken Bell Inn and it serves as a nice middle ground for the common people, but unless its theatre is reopened it does not truly add anything to Vallaki that The Lady's Rest or Tigan's Rest do not already provide.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 09:49:30 AM by Feronius »

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Re: Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2015, 09:47:27 AM »
I still think the Lady's rest is unnecessary. It is an inn outside the city, but there's also Deganwy for elves, the fishing lodge, the ML church, and the possibiltiy of going inside. Plus, I think if maybe it was made to be unsafe at night (maybe the NPC's go in the city, like Bianca and Radu, and the building is open for werewolves to wander into) then we can break up the "Hub" feeling of the outskirts that I have seen many say we want to try to avoid. It doesn't offer anything special or unique. There's the vistani camp which is safe, and that has a lot of area's you can set up tents and bedrolls at. The ML church is safe, there is the slums hospice, and as you've pointed out, plenty of Inns inside the town. Also, why not encourage travel sooner? Midway haven?
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Re: Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2015, 09:50:39 AM »
I had always hoped someone would rebuild the Malodorous Goat tavern...










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« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 09:52:33 AM by DM Stygian Witch »
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Feronius

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Re: Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2015, 09:55:52 AM »
There used to be a small tavern in the docks (it was locked by default) that served as a front for the Gundarakite Rebels, I don't think it exists anymore.
That place was very nicely designed and would make for a decent alternative to The Angler's Dive, as it would cater to Gundarakite citizens specifically.

Not sure if that would be a good suggestion though, as The Tigan's Rest and a few other places already cater towards the Gundarakite citizens as well.

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Re: Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2015, 09:57:11 AM »
Before you guys go further in this discussion, we will not remove the Lady's Rest nor will we remove the rooms there. The Western Outskirts is a hub and will remain one. We have no plans to change that. Feel free to discuss other inns though.

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Re: Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2015, 10:02:38 AM »
I am sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. I wasn't suggesting they be removed. I was suggesting they not be public. Still there, still accessable, but you know, more for RP setting flavor and less utilized.

Kind of like a place you go, click on an NPC, get some info about where you are, what's around, that sort of thing, but ultimately not a safe haven.
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Feronius

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Re: Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2015, 10:10:36 AM »
I would suggest removing The Angler's Dive, The Drowned Rat and The Gaping Wound.
The Drowned Rat really only has one thing going for it, those window objects with a view!

And I would very much like to see The Broken Bell Inn reimagined as The Broken Bell Theatre.
It is such a waste to throw away all of that leftover rotten fruit after every public execution.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 10:19:41 AM by Feronius »

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Re: Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2015, 10:45:12 AM »
What purpose would blocking them off serve?

More so, any area with a transition can serve as a 'safe haven' at night. There are numerous little buildings and houses in the Slum alleyways, for example. If you leave the areas accessible, they'd always be safe, so long as someone doesn't draw something through the transition behind them.
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Re: Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2015, 10:47:52 AM »
never suggested blocking them off either?

I think it would serve to migrate more people together in one area rather than dozens, while making it a lot scarier in the welcome areas and feel less safe. 
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Re: Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2015, 10:53:46 AM »
never suggested blocking them off either?

I think it would serve to migrate more people together in one area rather than dozens, while making it a lot scarier in the welcome areas and feel less safe. 

I'm sorry, Tycat - I'm not trying to put words in your mouth or anything, just trying to understand what you're suggesting. You're not suggesting getting rid of the Lady's Rest entirely (which EO said won't happen), but rather you're saying it should not be public?

What do you mean by that?
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Feronius

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Re: Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2015, 11:02:26 AM »
It has already been established that the development team is not planning to make any significant changes to The Lady's Rest.
Perhaps it would be more beneficial to discuss any of the other 8 taverns and inns that can be found throughout Vallaki instead?

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Re: Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2015, 11:05:35 AM »
never suggested blocking them off either?

I think it would serve to migrate more people together in one area rather than dozens, while making it a lot scarier in the welcome areas and feel less safe. 

I'm sorry, Tycat - I'm not trying to put words in your mouth or anything, just trying to understand what you're suggesting. You're not suggesting getting rid of the Lady's Rest entirely (which EO said won't happen), but rather you're saying it should not be public?

What do you mean by that?

Okay, so here's what i mean by that. There are plenty of places in games that you go, and what they are, is just places with life in them. NPC's that usually have conversations, giving you hints and clues about what to do with the game.

What i am suggesting is making it a place that does just that. It's there, Its open, but at night the NPC's go into the town to their own homes like everyone else, and things that go bump in the night are free to wander in, making it  not entirely safe. Maybe Bianca can have more conversations that provide some insider info on the setting - like "I fyou want work, go into the city." that sort of thing. IDK. Making it an NPC or a story line prop rather than something that's utilized by PC's exclusively.

It has already been established that the development team is not planning to make any significant changes to The Lady's Rest.
Perhaps it would be more beneficial to discuss any of the other 8 taverns and inns that can be found throughout Vallaki instead?

Maybe that's not a good idea, and maybe i am still not conveying it clearly, and there is that of course. However! One thing that I found as a new player, when i was new, and i still struggle with, is IC evidence of the setting. A lot of things i am ignorant to (because I don't want to have to do heavy research into the books - i am already double Majoring) could have been explained away with a couple lines of dialogue from NPC's, and the lady's rest is the first establishment you see that can provide just this. That's my two cents.

But yes, I still agree that there are way too many taverns.
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Re: Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2015, 11:21:28 AM »
What i am suggesting is making it a place that does just that. It's there, Its open, but at night the NPC's go into the town to their own homes like everyone else, and things that go bump in the night are free to wander in, making it  not entirely safe. Maybe Bianca can have more conversations that provide some insider info on the setting - like "I fyou want work, go into the city." that sort of thing. IDK. Making it an NPC or a story line prop rather than something that's utilized by PC's exclusively.

Why would Bianca Zeklos abandon the inn she runs to wander into an unsafe city at sundown? Anyway, the dev position on this seems fairly clear; the Lady's Rest stays as is.

To be honest, I don't see enough players using the inns other than the Blue Water and more recently the Gaping Wound for it to qualify as having any real effect on being able to find other players (and I spend a lot of time watching players roleplay). The Tigan's Rest, for reasons known to some of you, isn't the best place to hang out unless you're looking for very specific things. I don't think this is really a problem. I've seen no evidence that the diversity of places to rest does anything other than give people a chance to RP alone if they want.
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Re: Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2015, 11:30:49 AM »
I've got a bit more time to answer the concerns raised here.

1) Perhaps Vallaki has too many inns and taverns realistically for a 1500 people town; that's a fair point. Mind you, each of those inns/taverns has a history and at times a second purpose.

2) That diversity in in inns and taverns doesn't really contribute to spreading the server population. We compile on a monthly basis statistics about area usage for the entire server; we know how many entries there are in each area and the average level. The Western Outskirts, the ML temple and the Lady's Rest and the Mist Camp are the top four most popular areas on the server; this hasn't changed. The other Vallaki inns see very marginal use, just like other parts in the server. They are there and can be used and some use them, which is great but they don't replace the Lady's Rest. People used to complain long ago that there was only one spot to RP, the Western Outskirts; we've provided alternatives for niche RP.

3) The Lady's Rest serves a purpose as a low level safe area, just like the outskirts. It's inviting and nice because we want it to be. It's important for a new player to a server to quickly find players to interact with, hence why it's in the second zone after your starting area. The area is also designed to steer players that way rather than west. The Lady's Rest with cheap housing/food, the Morninglord Temple with heals and a low level dungeon and the outskirts as a safe outdoor area is a great place for a new player to meet people and slowly immerse themselves in Ravenloft. If we made it a hellish place with nothing to do, people wouldn't hang around there and new players wouldn't find others; the whole point of joining a server is to interact with others.

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Re: Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2015, 11:35:44 AM »
1) Perhaps Vallaki has too many inns and taverns realistically for a 1500 people town; that's a fair point. Mind you, each of those inns/taverns has a history and at times a second purpose.

That's what, like five taverns? So one tavern per 300 people?

I used to live in a small town of 13,000, with 52 pubs. That's 250 people to a pub.

Don't think this is weird at all, especially for a trade hub with people passing through. What's weird to me is a 1500 person town having enough nobles to fill a nobles' quarter. That's weird.
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Re: Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2015, 11:36:28 AM »
I've got a bit more time to answer the concerns raised here.

1) Perhaps Vallaki has too many inns and taverns realistically for a 1500 people town; that's a fair point. Mind you, each of those inns/taverns has a history and at times a second purpose.

2) That diversity in in inns and taverns doesn't really contribute to spreading the server population. We compile on a monthly basis statistics about area usage for the entire server; we know how many entries there are in each area and the average level. The Western Outskirts, the ML temple and the Lady's Rest and the Mist Camp are the top four most popular areas on the server; this hasn't changed. The other Vallaki inns see very marginal use, just like other parts in the server. They are there and can be used and some use them, which is great but they don't replace the Lady's Rest. People used to complain long ago that there was only one spot to RP, the Western Outskirts; we've provided alternatives for niche RP.

3) The Lady's Rest serves a purpose as a low level safe area, just like the outskirts. It's inviting and nice because we want it to be. It's important for a new player to a server to quickly find players to interact with, hence why it's in the second zone after your starting area. The area is also designed to steer players that way rather than west. The Lady's Rest with cheap housing/food, the Morninglord Temple with heals and a low level dungeon and the outskirts as a safe outdoor area is a great place for a new player to meet people and slowly immerse themselves in Ravenloft. If we made it a hellish place with nothing to do, people wouldn't hang around there and new players wouldn't find others; the whole point of joining a server is to interact with others.


Sorry I have to support #3 entirely, being a newer player to the server, it was hard as hell to find people to RP with outside their own cliques and groups, as a new player this server is a bit intimidating as it is, you move people away from the starting area and make it a nightmare, it will run people out just as fast.

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Re: Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2015, 12:06:27 PM »
1) Perhaps Vallaki has too many inns and taverns realistically for a 1500 people town; that's a fair point. Mind you, each of those inns/taverns has a history and at times a second purpose.

That's what, like five taverns? So one tavern per 300 people?

I used to live in a small town of 13,000, with 52 pubs. That's 250 people to a pub.

Don't think this is weird at all, especially for a trade hub with people passing through. What's weird to me is a 1500 person town having enough nobles to fill a nobles' quarter. That's weird.

Especially when you note that barovia does not have any real nobility beyond the Wachters and the Von Zaroviches.

Anyways I like the Broken Bell and the the Blue Water Inn. The Blue Water inn btw is canon. Turning the Angler's dive into a fish shop for people where different types of fish are sold could be nice way of handling it. The drowned rat, it can go boom IMO.

I have a suggestion about the Nymph, Move the Prancing Nymph to Dementlieu. This style of 'gentleman's club' would not really exist in such a medieval town. On the other hand it would fit Dementlieu much better IMO.


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Re: Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2015, 12:21:47 PM »
I prefer there being too many inns than too few, as it allows for players to meet away from the watchful eyes of other PCs. There are plenty of abandoned houses you can meet in as well, sure, but the importance of places that PCs can go to, to speak privately, is often understated, I think.

Also, I built the Drowned Rat. It was my way of proving to Soren that I could actually use our systems as a developer. Soren asked for an interior to a building in Vallaki, and the Drowned Rat is the result. I apologize if I've added to the problem perceived by some of 'too many inns', but there it is. It's hidden and out of the way, so it can be easily ignored and treated as though it doesn't exist, if you have a problem with it.

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Re: Area - Vallaki, Tavern Overkill?
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2015, 12:25:16 PM »
I think we should remove the entire residential district, all of the shops there are only flavour and there's no where for people to RP and it adds 20 seconds to getting to the ferry. In fact, I think the ferry should be 1 zone away from the outskirts.