Drow Sign Language

[Syied]

It is a very expressive language, able to convey tone and emotions."

Gotta say, that is REALLY dumb.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Is it that the explanation is dumb, or the notion that the language is expressive and able to convey tone and emotions dumb?

For me, the linguistics training in me is screaming for something more explicit than "able to convey tone and emotions," and demands to know if those two things are the limit to the language's expressiveness (besides, of course, its tactical uses). Tone and emotions are important, but there are other nuances that going into the ability to express, say, the notion of gods, morality, reasoning/logic, etc.

Also, I'll note that while I absolutely abhor the notion of the Baldur's Gate novels being considered canon (Abdel Adrian? Hrrghh....), and as wary as I am of encouraging the abundant RPing of Good Drow thanks to Salvatore's work, I have to acquiesce to canon derived from his work, considering how prolific his writing is and how much it has strengthened the community's love for DnD. So I'd really love to get a clearer idea of what the line about DSL's expressiveness is supposed to mean.

My purpose here is just to get a firm understanding of the boundaries intended by the PotM team and then see those boundaries respected IG so we continue to maintain the quality RP we have.

[Destinysdesire]

I have actually sent the question to R.A Salvatore himself as he is a friend of mine on Facebook, so if anyone can answer it, its him. I will post what he sends me if anything

My posted questions to him =

1. Is all drow sign language the same?
2. do ALL drow know sign language or is it only for the higher ranking members of drow society.
3. Would it really be something used to express emotions and such or would it only be used tactfully for battles and so on.

[Jeebs]

Can't speak for Drow Sign Language, but since it was brought up and is slightly related: thieve's cant is meant to convey short, very simple things, is it not? As I understood it, it was meant to be very subtle signals given to your fellow thieves for things like indicating a mark, that guards are approaching or things like that. My understanding is that it's not an actual language in itself. Am I mistaken?

[McNastea]

I've read a lot of different things about thieves cant. It was an actual language of sorts once upon a time, and there was simple and advanced-the advanced form being a language all of its own you wouldn't understand if you didn't know it, the simplier version being more of a way of talking around things. Think mafia talking on the phone about making sure the tomatoes are picked on time.

I don't see why a sign language being able to convey deep meaning is dumb? There's a real life sign language that does just that... why would an advanced sign language of immense complexity to the point that most not of the right race wouldn't be able to grasp the finer points be any different?

edit: on thieves cant I was under the impression it was a sign language for a long time until looking further in to it. the real life explanation states it as a spoken language, though there may be something about it for FR or the likes that makes it a sign language and that may be why I thought that to begin with.

[Jeebs]

I've read a lot of different things about thieves cant. It was an actual language of sorts once upon a time, and there was simple and advanced-the advanced form being a language all of its own you wouldn't understand if you didn't know it, the simplier version being more of a way of talking around things. Think mafia talking on the phone about making sure the tomatoes are picked on time.

I don't see why a sign language being able to convey deep meaning is dumb? There's a real life sign language that does just that... why would an advanced sign language of immense complexity to the point that most not of the right race wouldn't be able to grasp the finer points be any different?

edit: on thieves cant I was under the impression it was a sign language for a long time until looking further in to it. the real life explanation states it as a spoken language, though there may be something about it for FR or the likes that makes it a sign language and that may be why I thought that to begin with.

Yeah, as far as DnD goes, I thought thieves' cant was a sign language. The reason I always thought it was meant to be very simple was to be a subtle, very discrete thing that an unwary mark wouldn't notice as peculiar in comparison to normal sign languages, which you should normally be able to tell conveys some meaning even if you don't understand it.  But now that you brought that up, I'm not sure anymore. I suppose I will shut-up and let those more lore-savvy than me tackle this one then.

[Syied]

To entertain the tangent a moment:

The most clever ways I've seen Thieves Cant enacted is a mixture of supposedly mundane/inane speech and body language which conveys a special meaning to only speakers of Thieves Cant, rather than a simple "[Thieves Cant] No, you cannot enter there. My wife is inside, and I don't want her to know." So:

Scallywag Sam: Fine weather today, iddn't it? <He says with an exaggerated rubbing of his neck.> [Meaning in Thieves Cant: There's some trouble afoot.]
Roland the Rat: No, I find it quite uncomfortable really... <With a squint of one eye.> [Meaning: What's the matter?]
Scallywag Sam: Why, -I- love it when th'clouds rear their oogleh 'eads an' threaten rain! <Tilting his head eastward.> [The guards are gonna bust the pub east of here]
Roland the Rat: -Really?- Well, never a bad time for rain when it's dry... just make sure you put yer buckets out to collect... <Giving one nod, holding is chin toward his chest.> [Better get all your stuff out of there.]

Not that anyone's having conversations solely through *nod*s, but I think this'd be one way to maintain the suspension of disbelief when conversing in "cover languages" like Elven (when you're using it that way), DSL, or Thieves Cant. It helps clueless onlookers OOCly understand how your PCs could possibly be having such a conversation, and it even allows a degree of interaction from non-speakers (from a gleefully ignorant perspective) rather than just "Nope you don't get to be a part of this although you as a player know what is being said."

[McNastea]

To entertain the tangent a moment:

The most clever ways I've seen Thieves Cant enacted is a mixture of supposedly mundane/inane speech and body language which conveys a special meaning to only speakers of Thieves Cant, rather than a simple "[Thieves Cant] No, you cannot enter there. My wife is inside, and I don't want her to know." So:

Scallywag Sam: Fine weather today, iddn't it? <He says with an exaggerated rubbing of his neck.> [Meaning in Thieves Cant: There's some trouble afoot.]
Roland the Rat: No, I find it quite uncomfortable really... <With a squint of one eye.> [Meaning: What's the matter?]
Scallywag Sam: Why, -I- love it when th'clouds rear their oogleh 'eads an' threaten rain! <Tilting his head eastward.> [The guards are gonna bust the pub east of here]
Roland the Rat: -Really?- Well, never a bad time for rain when it's dry... just make sure you put yer buckets out to collect... <Giving one nod, holding is chin toward his chest.> [Better get all your stuff out of there.]

Not that anyone's having conversations solely through *nod*s, but I think this'd be one way to maintain the suspension of disbelief when conversing in "cover languages" like Elven (when you're using it that way), DSL, or Thieves Cant. It helps clueless onlookers OOCly understand how your PCs could possibly be having such a conversation, and it even allows a degree of interaction from non-speakers (from a gleefully ignorant perspective) rather than just "Nope you don't get to be a part of this although you as a player know what is being said."

I really like this idea-especially for elven. From what I've read, two elves can actually hold a conversation saying one thing but due to subtle inflections be holding an entirely different conversation that no one would realize, even if they knew elven, unless they were elves. This creates much more interesting rp than just the simple bracketed seclusion text that you mentioned

[Crimson Shuriken]

Chessryn knows and occasionally uses Drow Sign.
Yes, it is a very in-depth sign language and can express a lot, but I prefer to use common sense for using it. Its valued by drow for the silence and quickness it allows, so that tactical maneuvers are efficient while surprise is not lost. If you find yourself in a dungeon or beginning a pvp scene and have a drow or two to communicate with then its a great flavor element. Sometimes I see it used in redundant situations; speaking aloud would be more efficient so why would they use their hands etc.
Since it is mostly for directing movements and actions I feel comfortable using it to express concrete nouns and action verbs but I avoid it for abstract idea words or any word that would not come into regular parlance in the Underdark, by drow.  So as result, there should be no word for "gypsy" and I would imagine they might substitute a word like smoke for the mist etc.
If spoken drow (or any imported language) has a sentence such as "Go and negotiate with that vistani for a better price" then you can imagine the word "vistani" would just be a loanword in the middle of their natural language. Much as words from other languages are just plopped into a sentence in spoken languages today, such as tsunami or tycoon from Japanese; or kindergarten or schadenfreude from German etc.

You can say the same thing about a ton of the imported languages in general, on the server but especially and specifically when its using hands for communication, the concept of loan-words is pretty ridiculous so I tend to avoid "foreign concepts" when using drow sign, and stick only to basics and native (to dark elves) ideas.

[Bluebomber4evr]

I believe Greyhawk drow also have the sign language.

And Thieves' Cant is a collection of slang terms, kind of like all of the slang in the Planescape products. It's based on a real secret language from English history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thieves%27_cant

I think the easiest measure would be to say that Thieves' Cant is a collection of slang terms based on the Common Tongue, and since we have one Common Tongue for everyone, there's one Theives' Cant for everyone. Having multiple Cants for multiple languages just makes things needlessly overcomplicated.

[Destinysdesire]

Ok sorry I have been gone so long, but here is R.A Salvatores response.

Drow sign language is almost as intricate as the spoken tongue (in the near darkness, silence is golden). Remember that it was created back when INFRAVISION existed, so finger-writing, if you will, would be amplified in the lightless Underdark.

And all drow were taught it.

[Syied]

Some kind of screenshot would be good to have for that, DD, and then we can say, "RLoft helped cement the canon of DSL!" which would be awesome.

[Destinysdesire]

Here is the screenshot for R.A Salvatores post.

http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx187/vatara/R.A%20Salvatore_zpswfyz6au3.png

[Syied]

Sweet.