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Author Topic: Class skills  (Read 2221 times)

DreamlessWalker

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Class skills
« on: March 29, 2015, 03:41:16 PM »
Does anyone else think its weird that even in a world as harsh as Ravenloft,  a world that demands from its populace to adapt and evolve, classes stick to the mundane class skills they were assigned?
I'd like to see fighters who are able to handle locks, or at least spot as well as any class with the spot/listen skills.
Wizards? Why wouldn't scholars who pick up many topics and bits of information wouldn't be able to disarm traps, or walk as deftly as a ranger or rogue?
I just think it would be way better seeing PCs break the usual 'archtypes', moreso in a world that demands such.

Arawn

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Re: Class skills
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2015, 03:42:53 PM »
Actually, I think the majority of mid-to-higher level characters on the server are multiclassers, fulfilling exactly the roles you describe.
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peps

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Re: Class skills
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2015, 03:59:51 PM »
It is to avoid the powergamers. For an example, why can't a wizard or fighter learn to tumble with finesse? Or why can't a fighter hone their listening, spot, and search skills when they tend to be the class for bodyguards?

Merry Munchkin

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Re: Class skills
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2015, 04:22:19 PM »
Does anyone else think its weird that even in a world as harsh as Ravenloft,  a world that demands from its populace to adapt and evolve, classes stick to the mundane class skills they were assigned?
I'd like to see fighters who are able to handle locks, or at least spot as well as any class with the spot/listen skills.
Wizards? Why wouldn't scholars who pick up many topics and bits of information wouldn't be able to disarm traps, or walk as deftly as a ranger or rogue?
I just think it would be way better seeing PCs break the usual 'archtypes', moreso in a world that demands such.


There have been other games that have esesntially eliminated the concept of classes, skills, levels, etc.  Steve Jackson's GURPS is any example that comes to mind, and it is an interesting concept, in which anybody can basically construct anything they want.  However, as a practical matter, I have noticed that such games invariably have players that gravitate to conventional builds -- it is hard to thrive as a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none style of character, because everybody else you play with is going to be better at doing pretty much everything you do.  This is why characters eventually specialize in a particular field.  Most of those games end up looking and playing pretty much like the traditional games that preceded them -- D&D, Traveler, Top Secret, etc.

It know it is really tempting to wish that classes like wizards had more class skills, because they end up with lots of skill points (due to high INT), but as a practical matter this game (and any game, really) is not well served by folks just generating  such builds.  For every benefit a class has, there must be a corresponding cost to ensure play balance.  For example, you can multi-class if you want, but that limits your maximum class in both classes.  If a single class could basically do everything and solo everywhere, then there is not much of a point in having other classes or even other players around to join parties.  Most games that try to let characters "do everything" end up falling apart as games, because there is not much of an incentive to play together -- everything becomes a solo adventure.


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McNastea

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Re: Class skills
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2015, 04:52:50 PM »
I think initially people cross train skills less and start to branch out as their character develops more. I didn't have any detection skill on mine till there was an ig reason for him to think he should probably start training himself in that. Didn't start taking spellcraft, which was cross class, till he'd spent a long time around a sorceress who taught him to actually understand magic more than just fudging his way around using magic items via umd. I know lots of mages who have cross trained skills like open lock or tumble, clerics as well. Not many fighters would take lockpick I think mostly because they're -generally- strength based and can just pry things open, and don't always have the skill points to afford cross training when their focus is combat prowess and focus their training on more martial abilities. As someone mentioned, once you get to higher level players there's a lot more multi classing and cross training, but it really just comes down to what makes sense for your character.
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Syied

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Re: Class skills
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2015, 05:16:40 PM »
The thing about cross-classing skills is that most people, in my experience, just bank those skill points and wait for a level where they take a class that has the desired skill in its kit, and then put twice as many skill points into that. Rather defeats the purpose of cross-classing skills, and contributes to a lot of gameyness, and then to stay competitive, people wish for those skills to just be class skills.

So... just cross-class. And if you're a fighter who's a bodyguard and you're going to be taking rogue levels at some point? Cross-class it until then anyway. For one, you get to actually have those skill points as you level up, rather than having a bunch of skill points floating around in the ether. On top of that, it's how PnP operates, and Ravenloft, as I understand it, strives to be as close to the spirit of PnP as possible.

Syl

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Re: Class skills
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2015, 05:35:49 PM »
I've seen monks take Open lock... I have a fighter that has a few points in open lock but thats more for minor locks they might find otherwise without a need to cross class... I try not to cross class because than it seems like i'm trying ot make a power build ( not trying to change the subgect with that remark)

Nothing is stoping you from really cross classing your skills if you really wanted to without taking a diffrent class level.

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Merry Munchkin

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Re: Class skills
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2015, 09:18:51 PM »
The thing about cross-classing skills is that most people, in my experience, just bank those skill points and wait for a level where they take a class that has the desired skill in its kit, and then put twice as many skill points into that. Rather defeats the purpose of cross-classing skills, and contributes to a lot of gameyness, and then to stay competitive, people wish for those skills to just be class skills.

So... just cross-class. And if you're a fighter who's a bodyguard and you're going to be taking rogue levels at some point? Cross-class it until then anyway. For one, you get to actually have those skill points as you level up, rather than having a bunch of skill points floating around in the ether. On top of that, it's how PnP operates, and Ravenloft, as I understand it, strives to be as close to the spirit of PnP as possible.

All very true -- and banking skill points is something that some servers have tried to prevent.  Personally, though, I don't really fret too much about banking skill points -- in order to take advantage of all those skill points, you still must multiclass, and since there is a mandatory requirement that two classes be no more than 10 levels apart, it is impossible to just take a single level of a class and do a massive skill points dump.  The rule in PoTM for multiclassing I think effectively prevents the most pernicious effects of skill point banking, and I my eyes it is an adequate trade-off for seeking to get certain class skills (you put an upper limit on your primary class by doing this).  For example, a wizard that wants to open locks like a rogue and multiclasses will essentially be capping himself/herself to a maximum wizard level of 15 (since you would be forced to take 5 rogue levels by then).  The wizard would then be foreclosed from ever getting 9th level spells.  And all that is assuming your character even makes it to level 20!


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Exordium

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Re: Class skills
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2015, 03:51:18 AM »
On a principal level, I don't think that jack-of-all-trades type of characters are necessarily a good thing in the long run if there is no major sacrifice to them. DnD and PoTM both strive for role-based party mechanics, where each character has a specific role to fill. You've a front-line tank, a buffer cleric, a trapmaster ranger, a lock-picking rogue. By building this kind of a system, where a variety of characters come required, we encourage diversity in builds and partying with other players.

To me, personally, it's much more desirable to limit than to empower the variety of capabilities of a single character. I know this is way beyond your suggestion, Dreamless, but when classless approach is taken to the extreme, eventually party roles are fully gone. This is what I feel is wrong in otherwise awesome games like Path of Exile; Partying feels more like a bunch of characters striving for maximum DPS who just happen to be in the same map killing same monsters, rather than a bunch of characters filling their own roles and synergizing well together.

DnD, in its adventure mechanics, is all about synergizing with the party.

The in-character explanation for the skills your class offers ties to what kind of activies have been leading to your level. A fighter, who has full BAB and more hitpoints, is assumed to have been mostly practicing fighting. Hence, they don't have many non-combat skills available. Rogue on the other hand, who does not have full BAB and as many hitpoints, is assumed to have been doing those more rogueish things. Hence, he has more rogue skills available. Here game balance also comes to question.

All that said - As it is, multiclassing is pretty powerful. Particularly in the case of fighter, it feels more difficult to come up with a reason to not branch to rogue (or another full BAB class than fighter) than to branch. Many jack-of-all-trades, master of none builds actually wind up to jack-of-all-trades and damn good in half of them.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 03:59:08 AM by Exordium »

MAB77

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Re: Class skills
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2015, 07:54:53 AM »
In the end it hardly matters anyway. A character is what a player wants him to be, be he either a jack of all trade, a pure stereotype of his class or one with a mixture of perks and flaws, it is the character's personality and story we'll remember anyway. Though I do believe having flaws in a character is what helps making it interesting, I've seen characters of all kind being great and being horrible. It was never the game mechanics that made them so, it was the players behind them and the intensity of their roleplay. So really I think this discussion is a moot point.

That being said I do encourage players to take more cross-class skills. A versatile character is always more interesting to play. Don't worry the list of skills is long enough so that no one will ever be able to master them all. Also, I don't know why but it seems to me that few people realize that you don't even need to invest massive amount of points in a skill to make it useful. You don't even have to hoard them for later levels. Most items on the modules are geared toward boosting skills, and often to the point were it takes very little investment to make one useful in game.
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