Coup de grace

[julienchab]

Could anyone explain how the Coup de Grace works on the server? Just saw a lvl 2 kill a werewolf with one hit and I'm pretty confused of the mechanic!

Thanks!

[snowfox]

From http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Coup_de_gr%C3%A2ce :

Coup de grāce is a special kind of attack that is guaranteed to kill its target. A regular attack is (automatically) converted to a coup de grāce when the target is a helpless (paralyzed or sleeping) creature with four or fewer hit dice. This can be either a melee or a ranged attack, but the attacker must be within 30 feet of the target (the same range used for sneak attacks). While a coup de grāce cannot be applied to a player character, it can be made against associates (summons, familiars, etc.) of a player character.

When a coup de grāce is made, the attack is automatically successful, and the victim always dies from the attack. The automatic success means that the attack roll is always a natural 20, and miss chances (both concealment and attacker miss chances) are ignored. (There is no threat roll, though.) After the coup de grāce hits, the target dies. There is no specific damage dealt; the victim is simply killed.

[Tycat]

Coup de Grace is an assassin's attack, so I am wondering if you are confused about seeing it on a level two character - as that's a prestige class that requires more levels and such. Unless I am mistaken and it's available to other characters? Neither my ranger or Rogue have access to it.

[Amon-Si]

In NWN coup de grace only occurs when your target is sleeping. It must literally have failed its will save vs the sleep spell. There is no other form of coup de grace in Nwn.

[Tycat]

Is there? I recall using it as an assassin, and not when my target was sleeping. Are werewolves susceptible to sleep spells?

[snowfox]

What you may be thinking of is a combination of the assassins death attack, that causes paralyze on targets that fail a fortitude save, and the resulting coup de grāce in the next attack.

[julienchab]

Coup de Grace is an assassin's attack, so I am wondering if you are confused about seeing it on a level two character - as that's a prestige class that requires more levels and such. Unless I am mistaken and it's available to other characters? Neither my ranger or Rogue have access to it.

Yes. That is why I am a bit confused. It's wasn't the first time either I used that spell and it's was the first time I get that insta kill.

[Tycat]

What you may be thinking of is a combination of the assassins death attack, that causes paralyze on targets that fail a fortitude save, and the resulting coup de grāce in the next attack.

ahh yes, that sounds more accurate. thanks

Coup de Grace is an assassin's attack, so I am wondering if you are confused about seeing it on a level two character - as that's a prestige class that requires more levels and such. Unless I am mistaken and it's available to other characters? Neither my ranger or Rogue have access to it.

Yes. That is why I am a bit confused. It's wasn't the first time either I used that spell and it's was the first time I get that insta kill.

Was the DC easily achieved or did you really reallly luck out?

[julienchab]

What you may be thinking of is a combination of the assassins death attack, that causes paralyze on targets that fail a fortitude save, and the resulting coup de grāce in the next attack.

ahh yes, that sounds more accurate. thanks

Coup de Grace is an assassin's attack, so I am wondering if you are confused about seeing it on a level two character - as that's a prestige class that requires more levels and such. Unless I am mistaken and it's available to other characters? Neither my ranger or Rogue have access to it.

Yes. That is why I am a bit confused. It's wasn't the first time either I used that spell and it's was the first time I get that insta kill.

Was the DC easily achieved or did you really reallly luck out?

I'm not the one who did it. I just casted the spell on two different werewolves and a level 2 arrived and killed both with one attack

[Legion XXI]

From http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Coup_de_gr%C3%A2ce :

Coup de grāce is a special kind of attack that is guaranteed to kill its target. A regular attack is (automatically) converted to a coup de grāce when the target is a helpless (paralyzed or sleeping) creature with four or fewer hit dice. This can be either a melee or a ranged attack, but the attacker must be within 30 feet of the target (the same range used for sneak attacks). While a coup de grāce cannot be applied to a player character, it can be made against associates (summons, familiars, etc.) of a player character.

When a coup de grāce is made, the attack is automaticallyt successful, and the victim always dies from the attack. The automatic success means that the attack roll is always a natural 20, and miss chances (both concealment and attacker miss chances) are ignored. (There is no threat roll, though.) After the coup de grāce hits, the target dies. There is no specific damage dealt; the victim is simply killed.

This quote explains everything.  Keep in mind that it only applies to creatures with less than 4 HD.  There is no save, it's automatic if conditions are met.  Death Attack is something else entirely, unrelated to Coup de Grace.

[Bluebomber4evr]

Snowfox is correct. Also, bear in mind that it's part of the combat engine, which is hard-coded and cannot be changed, so it doesn't (and can't) work any differently here than it does on any other server.

[Tycat]

So werewolves are susceptible to sleep spells? Or is this an oversight?

[Bluebomber4evr]

So werewolves are susceptible to sleep spells? Or is this an oversight?

if they're under 5 hit dice, yes

[Ercvadasz]

So werewolves are susceptible to sleep spells? Or is this an oversight?

if they're under 5 hit dice, yes

So there is a HD 3 type of ww?
Where the hell have those been all my life?
I still remember the 40/+1 or silver werewolves....

[Merry Munchkin]

So werewolves are susceptible to sleep spells? Or is this an oversight?

if they're under 5 hit dice, yes

So there is a HD 3 type of ww?
Where the hell have those been all my life?
I still remember the 40/+1 or silver werewolves....

The default werewolf in NWN is actually only 2 HD, although they do have 10/+1 DR.  PoTM appears to have a variety of other custom werewolf spawns that appear much stronger, but there is no reason why a sleep spell would not work on a couple of default werewolves.  I am a little surprised that a level 2 was able to coup de grace both with one attack, since a level 2 of any class would only have 1 attack per round -- did the person have the cleave feat, or were they dual weilding?

[Dumas]

Well, the whole idea behind coup de grace is that the target is completely defenseless, and any attack would kill it because it won't wake up. The auto 20 I suppose simulates your character like... slitting their throat or stabbing through the heart, or something similar... which even a level 2 should be able to accomplish if their foe is completely asleep and isn't something spectacular.

[Kendric98]

Fort save dc 10 + damage dealt?

[Syl]

Is there? I recall using it as an assassin, and not when my target was sleeping. Are werewolves susceptible to sleep spells?

Having played the campeign there are times i found sleeping bugbears and goblins and the coup de grace poped up whenever i attacked them in one swing and killed them.

That being said i have seen it pop up on many toons i've seen fighters and monks pull it off more offten how ever what i have not seen it work on was a ogre battlemaster in the Fane forest,  I paralyzed one with a acid blob trap and it failed the save but didn't die nor did the coup de grace pop up.

If i recall on the campgien there was no fortitude save vs coup de grace nor a save of anykind because lets face it how are you going to survive a stab to the heart or having your throat sliced open wide?

[Tycat]

Is there? I recall using it as an assassin, and not when my target was sleeping. Are werewolves susceptible to sleep spells?

Having played the campeign there are times i found sleeping bugbears and goblins and the coup de grace poped up whenever i attacked them in one swing and killed them.

That being said i have seen it pop up on many toons i've seen fighters and monks pull it off more offten how ever what i have not seen it work on was a ogre battlemaster in the Fane forest,  I paralyzed one with a acid blob trap and it failed the save but didn't die nor did the coup de grace pop up.

If i recall on the campgien there was no fortitude save vs coup de grace nor a save of anykind because lets face it how are you going to survive a stab to the heart or having your throat sliced open wide?

I wasn't debating the reason why it works the way it does, I just thought it was a skill for a particular class only.

Question: Does it work on paralysis, or just sleep spells?

[Syl]

it should work on paralyzed targets since well... they are rendered helpless... that being said i haven't had the chance to test it personally since my tiny rogue wont do it nor will they survived hehehe if it doesn't kill the target even for a OOC test.

but if thats the case shouldn't the coup de grace also apply to targets that are held? like those under the evveft of hold monster or hold person?

but no Coup de grace is not class restriced anyone can do it, assassins i think just have a better chance of it because their death attack paralyzes the target.

[Legion XXI]

Guys, if you just TL;DR all the quotes from the Wiki, you're never going to learn anything.  


As posted earlier in the thread your target must meet the following criteria:

-Level 4 or below.

-Disabled by Paralyze or Sleep.


If they meet BOTH of those, a PC of any class or level may attempt an attack on them with an automatic roll (to guarantee a hit) that does not deal damage, but rather kills the target outright without a roll.

Assassins have a Death Attack, which is something else entirely that just paralyzes an enemy upon a failed Fort save.  In theory, if that enemy was below level 4 and they somehow survived the initial damage from the death attack - yes, you could in theory perform a Coup de Grace.  But it has nothing to do with, and bears no relation to, the Assassin Class or class abilities.  It's the same as if a Wizard were to cast Hold Person and then run in to Coup de Grace with a dagger.

The reason it's not working on the Ogres in the Forest Fane is, of course, because they are too high level to m eet the criteria for Coup de Grace.


Edit - Source - http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Coup_de_gr%C3%A2ce

[Syl]

Guys, if you just TL;DR all the quotes from the Wiki, you're never going to learn anything.   


As posted earlier in the thread your target must meet the following criteria:

-Level 4 or below.

-Disabled by Paralyze or Sleep.


If they meet BOTH of those, a PC of any class or level may attempt an attack on them with an automatic roll (to guarantee a hit) that does not deal damage, but rather kills the target outright without a roll.

Assassins have a Death Attack, which is something else entirely that just paralyzes an enemy upon a failed Fort save.  In theory, if that enemy was below level 4 and they somehow survived the initial damage from the death attack - yes, you could in theory perform a Coup de Grace.  But it has nothing to do with, and bears no relation to, the Assassin Class or class abilities.  It's the same as if a Wizard were to cast Hold Person and then run in to Coup de Grace with a dagger.

The reason it's not working on the Ogres in the Forest Fane is, of course, because they are too high level to m eet the criteria for Coup de Grace.


Edit - Source - http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Coup_de_gr%C3%A2ce

wait wait wait... but it doesn't say there is a minnimum level thats effected only by coup de grace. WHere does it say that?!?! [ franticly reads the wiki over and over]

Edit: found it and OMG thats is pure shinanagins!!!!!!

Edit edit: and this can't be corrected since it's hard coded huh... -.-.... Stupid NWNs people and making a flaw.. hehehe

[Tycat]

Is it a flaw? And i did read it. Forgive me, it's really early, and honestly to two didn't connect. I was thinking of hold person. Doesn't mean i didn't read the post before.

[Syl]

Well when one thinks about it if we put this in a semi realisic senario it can bee seen as a flaw. it is saying that a new recruite can be insta killed from being helpless by ( Insert mans here paralyze or sleep) but yet if a warchief is rendered helpless just because they are stronger and better they cannot have their throat easily sliced open and can surfive a sword through the heart?!

( note this is probably my logic getting the better of me early in the morning.)

Edit: SO i guess this is why it seems more of a flaw since in PnP there is no minimum level just for save DC 10+damage.

[Feronius]

I imagine higher level monsters usually have some sort of armour, healing factor or immunities that make them far less susceptible to moves such as a coupe de grace.
Most monsters of that level are not affected by sleep anymore anyway, right? And they probably have a really high ressistance against effects such as paralyze as well.

In the end they are just game mechanics though, we probably should not be overthinking this too much. It is likely hard coded into the game anyway, so there is probably not much anyone can do to change this mechanic.