PC only raise by other PC

[julienchab]

In a recent thread, a player brought up the lack of fear there is currently in the server. Let's take for exemple the church of Vallaki. Even with the bloodmoon event, people(I do too) stay outside at night, braving it while it should be super dangerous to do so. I think one of the reasons of that lack of fear is there is no consequences in dying right outside of vallaki church or anywhere near it. There is a mentality of: Hey, Lizuca is inside and can raise me!  Of course I'll stay outside! Even if I died I'll be  back in shape right after!

In the same  thread, the same player brought the idea that only PC characters could raise another fellow PC. I love the idea. I think if there wasn't an easy way to raise their PC, more players would be cautious of their actions and wouldn't go headon on every ennemy they see because they would fear of not being able to play it again before a strong enough priest is around.

I'd like to get the thoughts of other players about that!
Thanks for taking the time to read

[TheShadow]

this, or to simply make it much more costly. While the uber rich pc's would have no troublr paying it off, ( hey, they're rich, let thr have a few perks for /being/ rich) the lower end pc's would have to be much more cautious about exactly what they are doing. It mogt not make it more fearful, but it'd at least curb the lack of contempt towards the npc's 

[-narwhal-]

lots of people have a cleric who can raise i guess.. so it would not matter i think.. just send a tell to a person who brings his cleric where its needed
problem with raising the cost of raise dead by npcs its just not cool because low lvls often die even in the crypt forexample...

it would be better if mpc/ampcs/dms in events like this would just simple burn the corpse for the higher cost of raise.

or maybe, if NPCs only could cast raise dead but not ressurection, thats also would work i think better than this.

dunno, just my thoughts

(this would make new players even more difficult to start on the server which is already very hard i think too anyways)

[Ehver]

I'm against this. (Gasp!)

I'm all for making resurrection more difficult than it currently is, whether by reducing the number of NPCs capable of doing it, increasing the price, or creating ill effects that the recently resurrected character must deal with... But I don't think that other players being the ONLY way to res someone is a good idea. That's extremely limiting, especially for the people who happen to play during non-peak times. If you happen to play during those joyous hours when the server is packed with fifty people, that's great! You probably won't have any trouble at all. But if you happen to play in the down times, when activity ranges from 10 - 20 players, you're likely screwed until you or your friends can find someone willing to help out.

Not only that, but I think it would honestly become very annoying very fast for characters capable of casting the spell. They would constantly be dealing with a torrent of tells - "Hey, can you come save me?" "Hey, someone in our group fell and we need a res." etc. etc. For some people, this might not be a problem, but for others it could be considered extremely disruptive if they're in the middle of something and yet feel beholden to other players because they are the ONLY option available to those players.

I stand staunchly against this. A different solution should be found.

[Feronius]

I stand staunchly against this. A different solution should be found.

As do I. Raising people is already pretty costly and I currently could not name you a single PC I know who is able to raise characters from the death.

The outskirts are the starting area of the server, it should have an NPC that is able to raise characters from the dead. Most of the characters that are high enough level to cast those spells are not very likely to still reside in that region on a very regular basis and I think the last thing the devs want is to encourage high levels migrating back into the outskirts. In most places dying means you're miles away from the nearest NPC that can raise you again and in most cases you've just lost all the gold needed to do so, most of the time your traveling companions can't simply go back out there to pick up your possessions. Sometimes that is because they are dead as well, which usually racks up the costs of a single party wipe well into the thousands.

This change would make raising the dead harder, true. But it will not encourage anyone to roleplay their fear more than they already do.


If you truly want to encourage fear, the true monsters (the kind that are supposedly rarely seen because people seldom live to tell the tale) such as werewolves should be made far less common instead of there being a small army of weaker werewolf spawns every night, only two transitions away from where a new PC enters the world. This is by far the most obvious example though, a lot of monsters thankfully aren't daily news.
In the past MPCs (as well as PCs who respond to them way too casually) have not done those monster stories any favours either by constantly hanging out within view of the city gates.

Things like that along with the dozens of incredibly brave adventurers who will never portray any fears is what makes this server seem less scary than it actually is.
Because trust me, if you go to a dungeon or to some dangerous area with a level appropriate party, this server can already be plenty scary and unforgiving as it is.

[-narwhal-]

Topics like these appear every so often and usually blow over with very little effect. That said, another option is to make "Resurrection sickness" only curable by restoration, and Resurrection Sickness on a badly impaired corpse only curable by a Greater Restoration. I actually dislike the idea of PCs only raising other PCs, because you'll run into even more cases of OOC raises than you do now. It's bad enough to receive Tells asking to run across a server to go pick up your someone's downed body so they don't have to respawn (Which I find myself having to ignore), I can only imagine this proposed system making that worse.

That said:

lots of people have a cleric who can raise i guess.. so it would not matter i think.. just send a tell to a person who brings his cleric where its needed

I fail to see how this is not using OOC knowledge IC, and therefore, against the rules. Please confirm.

yeah , i wanted to mean it will make more OOC raise, even more like now, much more (if only high lvl clerics could raise PCs)

so it would be like this: "Hey could you please bring your cleric on and raise me?"

[ladylena]

This could potentially give people more use for clerics instead of just healers and party buffers. I had intended to set Odette up to do a voodan ritual 3 days(in day games) after their death to bring them back, once I can raise dead.

But yeah, this could also instill fear. Perhaps if it's possible there could be a way to increase the likelihood of Lizuca raising them as a zombie, I mean I'm pretty sure canonically her brother is a Nerullite (80% feel free to correct me), thus making it more dangerous to die, since you might end up needing resurrection rather than raise dead.

[whatdoesitmater]

What if Liz could only raise during/at dawn? Much like the pool at the back of the church.

[chuuch1]

Can make it so Lizuca will only raise players under a certain level, say lvl 7.  Anyone over that level has to go to the village of barovia to a more powerful priest

[herkles]

Can make it so Lizuca will only raise players under a certain level, say lvl 7.  Anyone over that level has to go to the village of barovia to a more powerful priest

uhm, what baout the ezirtes or the church inside vallaki?  would we have to go all the way there? >>

[McNastea]

LIke I said last time, I don't see how adding this mechanical aspect will effect the way people rp their characters-and there have been some really good points raised imo that kinda make this seem like something that wouldn't work in the intended fashion and would just cause a lot of problems.

Not that there's anything wrong with trying to come up with a solution to this, I just don't think that this is one.

[FinalHeaven]

I'd rather see more meaningful ways of promoting fear and consequences than simply slapping on a mechanical penalty randomly.  You can't force people to RP a certain way.  I've never really understood where the idea comes from that changes like these will suddenly make someone roleplay the way someone else thinks is best.  As far as I'm aware the only rule is that your roleplay fit the setting and not blatantly go against it.  It's up to individual choice how your character responds to things like the old night and death.

Simply, the current system is not broken.  There isn't one correct way to express character consequences IC.

[de_reguer]

In a recent thread, a player brought up the lack of fear there is currently in the server. Let's take for exemple the church of Vallaki. Even with the bloodmoon event, people(I do too) stay outside at night, braving it while it should be super dangerous to do so. I think one of the reasons of that lack of fear is there is no consequences in dying right outside of vallaki church or anywhere near it. There is a mentality of: Hey, Lizuca is inside and can raise me!  Of course I'll stay outside! Even if I died I'll be  back in shape right after!

In the same  thread, the same player brought the idea that only PC characters could raise another fellow PC. I love the idea. I think if there wasn't an easy way to raise their PC, more players would be cautious of their actions and wouldn't go headon on every ennemy they see because they would fear of not being able to play it again before a strong enough priest is around.

I'd like to get the thoughts of other players about that!
Thanks for taking the time to read

This is only going to hurt low level characters. Most mid or upper level PC either know a cleric or two or have access to potions or globes for raising the dead so for them its just the same inconvenience. The whole point of making clerics use diamonds originally was to make death more meaningful, but since that change came out at roughly the same time as the mushrooms in Harakir or the buy able globes in the PL black market one just nullified the other.

What you are inadvertently asking for is an in game mechanism to force players into doing something they should already be doing. Its not going to work for the simple reason that realistically if there is a vampire, or werewolf (or guy with a gun or axe murderer, etc) outside then people should and would run and hide, retreat, or otherwise take steps to remove themselves from the threat. But on a role playing server where everyone chooses to play a heroic or semi heroic character such behavior is counter productive to excitement and fun. Role playing fear is well and good until you realize you are the only one doing it at which point if you want to join in the story telling narrative you become another fearless , hardened, swaggering hero.

If you want players to be afraid of the dark then limiting access to raises isnt the way to go. When someone yells vampire everyone is still going to run outside to see what is going on because its more fun and exciting for most people than hiding in the church. There are many exceptions of course, but a mechanical game change isn't going to change peoples behavior. Just my take on it anyway.

[Ehver]

If you want players to be afraid of the dark then limiting access to raises isnt the way to go. When someone yells vampire everyone is still going to run outside to see what is going on because its more fun and exciting for most people than hiding in the church. There are many exceptions of course, but a mechanical game change isn't going to change peoples behavior. Just my take on it anyway.

This is unfortunately a very good point. The people who are acting in a way that we consider 'wrong' are being rewarded for doing so - they get into exciting situations, get to interact with powerful monsters  and otherwise be in the middle of the action. The people who are acting 'right' - who are hiding in fear and staying as far away from danger as they can get - don't get to see all that action. They get to hear stories from everyone else, but in the end, they are never directly involved. This can be fun at times, but more often than not, it means a night of boredom while everyone else is running around doing something stupid but productive.

I use the terms 'right' and 'wrong' very loosely here, just to make a point.

[Feronius]

What if Liz could only raise during/at dawn? Much like the pool at the back of the church.

Part of me does like this suggestion. I don't think it will really do anything to make people RP out their fears more, but it's an interesting idea to include in RPing a Morninglord character.

Then again, I do worry that a change like this does relatively little to add to the immersion compared to the amount of inconvenience that it could cause the player behind the keyboard.
For someone with limited time to play the game this could be a serious dealbreaker, not everyone may be able to stay online an additional one and a half hour after an accidental death.

[Exordium]

It would be very confusing and complicate things for new players, if Lizuca didn't raise people or only raised at dawn.

What might be true though is that the actual cost of raising has been going lower, due to there being money in more abundant quantities on the server than when the original price was set. Since then, we've introduced deliveries (were you level 4, running once to Kroftburg and back with a friend would afford you two um.. 5 raises?), bounties, more means to run player-based economies (herbs, alchemical ingredients), the paid jobs, etc. So affording the cost of raising is now more trivial than it has been.

[Feronius]

Is there even an IC reason behind the fact you're charged in gold to be returned to life? I assume so, because pretty much everything on the server seems to be argued from an IC or a PnP point of view, but I can't really find the logic behind the Morninglord church charging thousands of gold to bring people back to life while still operating from buildings that don't even have proper windows. And I honestly don't think a higher or lower cost in gold will do much to make it less trivial.

The truth of the matter is that character deaths will only ever have as much impact and meaning as the playerbase choose to give it, aside from the rare permanent death through DM.



I could suggest removing the gold cost entirely, or turning it into a really minor fee, and instead deducting a little bit of XP every time you're revived.
That is the one thing everyone on this server truly does not want to put at risk and it would make a lot more sense from a character point of view.

But with the overwhelming odds and ample opportunity of dying on this server, sometimes multiple times in a single dungeon run, and how terribly snail-paced leveling already is, that might not be a very popular suggestion. Or it would have to be a very minimal XP fee (not losing one or multiple levels every time you die, like is the case when you use the beam of light) to make sure players aren't discouraged from playing the game too much every time they have an accidental death or death caused by lagg / buggs / glitches. It already takes me weeks or months just to get to level 6 and that is without any XP penalties. I think for many players even the smallest chance of losing XP is probably a higher cost than whatever price in gold on this server.
And not to forget, you would still drop all your gold and weaponry upon death. Thoughts?

[ManticoreRO]

The amount of gold Lizuca asks for a raise or ressurection is to cover the cost of diamonds.
Regarding your suggestion, I find it a good only. Only, keep the current cost AND add XP loss or a negative effect on stats that cannot be removed by restoration or any other similar spell. The negative effect would be removed automatically after some time.

[Ehver]

Getting an xp hit every time you're resurrected would certainly deter a lot of people from taking some of the more absurd risks. There's nothing most people love more than their xp, after all. ; ) That being said, I'm not sure if that would increase the 'fear' or in any way improve the atmosphere of the server besides ticking a lot of people off...

I do like the idea of being devastatingly weakened after you've been resurrected. Take a hit to all of your ability scores, saves, attack rolls, and have the 'exhausted' effect. Make it so that it simply can't be removed, and lasts for 30 minutes or an hour RL. This would, at least, stop people from hopping up and going about their business as normal moments after being literally raised from the dead. They would have to take time for their character to recover.

Again, this might backfire, especially for new players joining the server who have a significantly higher chance of dying.

[--GlamRock--]

I do not want to sound caustic, but I have not really read much of this whole thread, because it is something which occasionally comes up, as already stated.

If you want fear, play according that attitude, but if people do not, you cannot force them with some system which penalizes also others. People who play in some ways will always find a way to bypass troubles, and those who play, let's say, accordingly will just have a further difficulty imposed on them.

[Feronius]

Maybe it'd help if the ressurection sickness simply lasted longer? Make it so that you're required to rest multiple times before the effects have completely worn out.

It's the one way to make sure players don't rush out into danger straight after they are brought back to life. (Won't fix the outskirts though, because there's an inn there.)
And it's the one variable you can adjust without having to resort to XP penalties, ridicilously high gold costs or measures that make the raise dead mechanic inaccessible.

[McNastea]

Maybe it'd help if the ressurection sickness simply lasted longer? Make it so that you're required to rest multiple times before the effects have completely worn out.

It's the one way to make sure players don't rush out into danger straight after they are brought back to life. (Won't fix the outskirts though, because there's an inn there.)
And it's the one variable you can adjust without having to resort to XP penalties, ridicilously high gold costs or measures that make the raise dead mechanic inaccessible.

Ideas like this and similar ones voiced don't create -fear- though, they'll simply make it impossible to continue a dungeon once someone dies. And I'd point out that a true res is not supposed to be associated with any sort of draw backs at all.

Fear isn't caused from mechanical penalties, I can't stress that enough. You're not creating fear in doing this-you can only do that through everyone agreeing ooc to play this in that manner, and you'll never get -everyone- to. Those people that don't rp fear the way you want? There are people like them not doing what lots of people want them to do one -every- server ever. The only person you can control is yourself. Set the example that you think she be set and hope it rubs off. This discussion is about rp, not whether death penalties are heavy enough.

[Feronius]

I completely agree with you on that. And I personally think the current costs of dying are already more than taxing enough as they are, I was simply throwing in some alternative suggestions.
Adjusting the ressurection sickness is just the only variable I can think of that might, possibly, do anything to make almost dying less easy to dismiss without screwing the player over too much.

I'd still much rather see changes to the spawns being made to help make the infamous monsters less common and truly fearful, instead of everyone always blaming it on the raise dead feature.

[qwertyuioppp]

Again, this might backfire, especially for new players joining the server who have a significantly higher chance of dying.

This is a fantastic point that should really be thought on; also worth noting is all those times PCs die from external reasons. I have had my PCs die maybe 200 - 300 times, and I'd honestly say at least 40% of those were from connection issues, or my client glitching out. I mean, one time I even died because I accidentally triple-clicked on a ladder and, after exiting, the AI automatically ran my PC straight back into that deadly, enemy-filled zone to execute that queued action on the ladder again. Just one extra accidental click, seriously. That's just the very tip of the iceberg; I don't even think I could count the number of times I've had my connection cut out while my PCs were unconscious and subsequently instantly got auto-killed.

Maybe this isn't such a big problem for people with perfect installations or stable internet connections but, if I got an XP hit, or a 30 min debuff, or had to find a PC cleric of the correct alignment and disposition to my PC online at the exact same time as me, because I disconnected during a fight and wasn't able to do anything, I'd be extremely annoyed. I'd also have a difficult time finding a party to go into combat with, since they'd know that my bad connection would leave my PCs a liability, and there's a good chance they'd have to stop everything and raise my PC (who would then be useless in the fight anyway).

In addition, when you start giving out legitimate penalties for attempting a challenge suited to your PC level, you'll find people will instead switch to challenges below their level, inside their comfort-zone. High-level PCs running low-level dungeons doesn't seem to be a huge issue on this server just yet, and I really wouldn't enjoy seeing it become one.

Set the example that you think she be set and hope it rubs off.

This just about covers my opinion on this topic. Some people are just unpracticed at fear RP, myself included, and need a helping hand; it would be great to see more people offer (kindly-worded) RP tips when they're in situations like this.

[Aahz]

If they had wanted PCs clerics to raise/resurrect more, they would not have implemented the diamond requirement in the first place.