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Author Topic: Frivolous and unbalanced items  (Read 39691 times)

Bluebomber4evr

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Re: Frivolous and unbalanced items
« Reply #50 on: March 20, 2015, 12:02:03 PM »
But wasn't that more for like coins and currency? like it takes 10 silver coins to be the same as 1 gold? 100 copper is the same as 1 gold.
Yes, but you have to remember you're not dealing with a modern fiat currency, where a dollar is worth a dollar because the government says so. These coins are worth what they're worth because of their metal content. So a gold piece is worth what it's worth because it is gold, not because of which government issued it.

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Re: Frivolous and unbalanced items
« Reply #51 on: March 20, 2015, 12:14:24 PM »
I guess the real question should be, why do we have 10 pound bars of silver as loot if they can't be used for crafting and don't sell for much?

Syl

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Re: Frivolous and unbalanced items
« Reply #52 on: March 20, 2015, 12:18:56 PM »
But wasn't that more for like coins and currency? like it takes 10 silver coins to be the same as 1 gold? 100 copper is the same as 1 gold.
Yes, but you have to remember you're not dealing with a modern fiat currency, where a dollar is worth a dollar because the government says so. These coins are worth what they're worth because of their metal content. So a gold piece is worth what it's worth because it is gold, not because of which government issued it.

No no I understand that. I've played enough games that used gold silver and copper currency,
Though I will agree with OphissSss on that why do we have them or why do they weigh 10lbs if we can't make and crafting use of them and they sell for little to nothing, I've heard 10 pound copper bars have been dropping in the coffins in the ML crypt like mad also or the steel bars that drop from the mechanical golems in ALhoon who have been dropping those for a long time but had no use. Why have these if they have no use?

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herkles

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Re: Frivolous and unbalanced items
« Reply #53 on: March 20, 2015, 12:32:52 PM »
But wasn't that more for like coins and currency? like it takes 10 silver coins to be the same as 1 gold? 100 copper is the same as 1 gold.
Yes, but you have to remember you're not dealing with a modern fiat currency, where a dollar is worth a dollar because the government says so. These coins are worth what they're worth because of their metal content. So a gold piece is worth what it's worth because it is gold, not because of which government issued it.

Speaking of this. Is it possible to go away from the base NWN economy system to the canon ravenloft one, ie different curriencies being used and also visiting a currency exchange?


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Re: Frivolous and unbalanced items
« Reply #54 on: March 20, 2015, 12:41:40 PM »
That sounds like a scripting nightmare.

Bluebomber4evr

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Re: Frivolous and unbalanced items
« Reply #55 on: March 20, 2015, 02:00:54 PM »
But wasn't that more for like coins and currency? like it takes 10 silver coins to be the same as 1 gold? 100 copper is the same as 1 gold.
Yes, but you have to remember you're not dealing with a modern fiat currency, where a dollar is worth a dollar because the government says so. These coins are worth what they're worth because of their metal content. So a gold piece is worth what it's worth because it is gold, not because of which government issued it.

No no I understand that. I've played enough games that used gold silver and copper currency,
Though I will agree with OphissSss on that why do we have them or why do they weigh 10lbs if we can't make and crafting use of them and they sell for little to nothing, I've heard 10 pound copper bars have been dropping in the coffins in the ML crypt like mad also or the steel bars that drop from the mechanical golems in ALhoon who have been dropping those for a long time but had no use. Why have these if they have no use?
I removed the steel bars from the mechanical golems.

The copper/silver/gold/platinum bars are just treasure. They're meant to be fun and flavorful items like the gems or art objects. Making them craftable would make them a considerable shortcut by eliminating mining and smelting and thus would take all the challenge out of the craft.

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Syl

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Re: Frivolous and unbalanced items
« Reply #56 on: March 20, 2015, 02:22:14 PM »
But wasn't that more for like coins and currency? like it takes 10 silver coins to be the same as 1 gold? 100 copper is the same as 1 gold.
Yes, but you have to remember you're not dealing with a modern fiat currency, where a dollar is worth a dollar because the government says so. These coins are worth what they're worth because of their metal content. So a gold piece is worth what it's worth because it is gold, not because of which government issued it.

No no I understand that. I've played enough games that used gold silver and copper currency,
Though I will agree with OphissSss on that why do we have them or why do they weigh 10lbs if we can't make and crafting use of them and they sell for little to nothing, I've heard 10 pound copper bars have been dropping in the coffins in the ML crypt like mad also or the steel bars that drop from the mechanical golems in ALhoon who have been dropping those for a long time but had no use. Why have these if they have no use?
I removed the steel bars from the mechanical golems.

The copper/silver/gold/platinum bars are just treasure. They're meant to be fun and flavorful items like the gems or art objects. Making them craftable would make them a considerable shortcut by eliminating mining and smelting and thus would take all the challenge out of the craft.

Fair enough.

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whatdoesitmater

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Re: Frivolous and unbalanced items
« Reply #57 on: March 20, 2015, 02:26:53 PM »
The the copper bars weigh far too much to be worthwhile to take. I've found them in looted chests, and laying on the floor in the open next to the chest they spawned in. 10.5 lbs, for 2-3 gold is not worth lugging it around. There has been a lot of back and forth based off my first post. I agree that a crafted silver ring, with engravings and gems, is worth far greater than just the silver it's made out of. However, I was not talking about engraved or gem encrusted silver rings. I was talking about the standard silver ring, with nothing about engravings or gems added to it in the description of the ring. These plain silver rings are 0.1 lbs of silver. Nothing more. Using weight math, the silver in this ring should be worth 0.15% of the price of a solid 10.5 lbs bar of the same material. I at this point though no longer care what the prices are I'll leave silver bars where I find them, and instead get far richer dragging back loads of tiny silver rings.

I do however wonder why silver rings, bars and whatever else, can't be smelted down to make ingots for the craft system. Metal melts and can be reformed regardless of the form it is in, as long as it is heated to the proper temperature.

Bluebomber4evr

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Re: Frivolous and unbalanced items
« Reply #58 on: March 20, 2015, 03:03:03 PM »
The the copper bars weigh far too much to be worthwhile to take. I've found them in looted chests, and laying on the floor in the open next to the chest they spawned in. 10.5 lbs, for 2-3 gold is not worth lugging it around. There has been a lot of back and forth based off my first post. I agree that a crafted silver ring, with engravings and gems, is worth far greater than just the silver it's made out of. However, I was not talking about engraved or gem encrusted silver rings. I was talking about the standard silver ring, with nothing about engravings or gems added to it in the description of the ring. These plain silver rings are 0.1 lbs of silver. Nothing more. Using weight math, the silver in this ring should be worth 0.15% of the price of a solid 10.5 lbs bar of the same material. I at this point though no longer care what the prices are I'll leave silver bars where I find them, and instead get far richer dragging back loads of tiny silver rings.

I do however wonder why silver rings, bars and whatever else, can't be smelted down to make ingots for the craft system. Metal melts and can be reformed regardless of the form it is in, as long as it is heated to the proper temperature.
rings and other jewelry are considered "art objects" in the D&D rules and thus their value is calculated differently.

As for the rest of what you're saying, you might as well say that about any loot of any material such as wood or iron. That sort of thing goes far beyond what the crafting system was meant for.

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whatdoesitmater

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Re: Frivolous and unbalanced items
« Reply #59 on: March 20, 2015, 03:16:28 PM »
Wood doesn't melt, so I wouldn't say it about wood. Iron, is a metal, and in this case should be be able to be remelted. I get that here it isn't going to change. You have made it perfectly clear Blue. That however doesn't make you right in the logical sense, and saying that's how the D&D rules say it's so- is just your interpretation of the rules. I have my own having played and DM D&D since the 70s. Certainly there could well be certain shops that view rings and amulets made of metal as art. Probably those shops are in Port. The Vistani that I first posted about are not collecting art. They are acting more like pawn brokers. However, given that you are the final say when it comes to this- I suggest redefining the standard silver ring, as it's current description lends nothing to the current selling cost (100 gp+) by the various merchants.

Syl

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Re: Frivolous and unbalanced items
« Reply #60 on: March 20, 2015, 03:28:25 PM »
on a more interesting note, it would be cool if some places pay better for rings and necklaces and gems but wont buy anything else. I Know there are general stores that just buy anything like the guy in blaustein but going to him just seems.... meh, like, a jewler's store would only buy jewlery or gems.

though this is probably better for wishlist heh

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EO

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Re: Frivolous and unbalanced items
« Reply #61 on: March 20, 2015, 03:30:22 PM »
I'm fairly sure the jeweler in Dementlieu only buys jewelry.

herkles

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Re: Frivolous and unbalanced items
« Reply #62 on: March 20, 2015, 03:54:31 PM »
I'm fairly sure the jeweler in Dementlieu only buys jewelry.
I am also fairly sure that he isn't the best place to sell jewelry to. But if he offered a much better price to selling jewelry to, that would be great. :)


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Re: Frivolous and unbalanced items
« Reply #63 on: March 20, 2015, 04:00:06 PM »
I'll look at the rates. Normally our specialized merchants are supposed to offer better rates but I don't think we've done a overhaul of all our merchants.

Syl

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Re: Frivolous and unbalanced items
« Reply #64 on: March 20, 2015, 04:08:26 PM »
I'm fairly sure the jeweler in Dementlieu only buys jewelry.

HAHAHA this is probably most likely true that they do, i have been there only once or twice on all my toons combined so i couldn't remember I'f i'm wrong sorry

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Ercvadasz

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Re: Frivolous and unbalanced items
« Reply #65 on: March 21, 2015, 04:22:23 AM »
Actually not sure about this silver ring, silver bar topic.
Since i am not familiar with the latter item. (I only seen so far copper bar, and i did not know they are uncraftable objects.)
But about in the previous comments mentioned the priceing of a 10.5 pound silver ring and the 0.1 pounded crafted silver ring.
The silver ring is still a crafted item, so actually its price should be about 100% more than the value of the metal parts used in it.
However even so a 0.1 silver ring and a silver bar should only have the same price if the ring is crafted by a VERY FAMOUS silversmith.
I think the silver bar should be raised a bit in value, since actually it is a possible source for making currency out of it. Not to mention even though our crafting system does not support it it is well silver, also a possible way to pay TAX!.
For instance if a normal silver ring is like 52 golden pieces i think a silver bar with added value, could be sold for like 252 or 352 gold.
That would not make it into a big deal, but still would put some use to it loot wise.
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Re: Frivolous and unbalanced items
« Reply #66 on: March 21, 2015, 04:50:59 AM »
My only complaint about the bars is they can't be used for crafting, which makes them useless due to the weight. While I understand that it's a shortcut for the mining, over my years on this server I've noticed it has always leaned towards realism in regards to things not specifically covered by D&D rules. Not seeing much point in these useless metal bars if they can't be used by craftsmen.

'Hey Bob, just found a ten pound bar of pure silver. Can you smelt it down and gild my sword?'

'Nope.'

'Why?'

'Because reasons and that's all you need to know.'

I get it's for flavor, but it seems to go against immersion.


Feronius

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Re: Frivolous and unbalanced items
« Reply #67 on: March 21, 2015, 07:03:03 AM »
We have quite a large amount of flavour items in general, perhaps it would be good if that number went down a little.
I like the ones that have actual uses, unique models or interesting descriptions though. Such as gemstones or holdables.

chuuch1

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Re: Frivolous and unbalanced items
« Reply #68 on: March 21, 2015, 01:26:15 PM »
My only complaint about the bars is they can't be used for crafting, which makes them useless due to the weight. While I understand that it's a shortcut for the mining, over my years on this server I've noticed it has always leaned towards realism in regards to things not specifically covered by D&D rules. Not seeing much point in these useless metal bars if they can't be used by craftsmen.

'Hey Bob, just found a ten pound bar of pure silver. Can you smelt it down and gild my sword?'

'Nope.'

'Why?'

'Because reasons and that's all you need to know.'

I get it's for flavor, but it seems to go against immersion.



Have to agree with this, if they can't be used for crafting, they're pretty useless.
While we are on the topic, platinum and gold ore that can be mined but as far as I can tell there are no applicable crafting uses for them both. 

Bluebomber4evr

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Re: Frivolous and unbalanced items
« Reply #69 on: March 21, 2015, 04:54:30 PM »
Again, they're just treasure items you can turn in for money, and they're a functioning as a replacement for the various types of coins that you can normally find in tabletop D&D that are not easily reproduced in D&D. Making them craftable would destroy the balance of the crafting system.

The silver and copper are intended for low-level treasure, where every little bit helps. Gold and platinum are for the higher level treasures.

And destroying immersion? Come on. Nobody ever complained that you couldn't melt your gp for the crafting system. If it bothers you so much, just imagine that there are markings on the bars indicating they are legal tender, just like gold pieces have.

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de_reguer

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Re: Frivolous and unbalanced items
« Reply #70 on: March 21, 2015, 09:21:01 PM »
But wasn't that more for like coins and currency? like it takes 10 silver coins to be the same as 1 gold? 100 copper is the same as 1 gold.

Yes, but that's likely because your average NPC is going to have more access to something like silver than gold as based on their job. A farmer might make 10 silver a day while a farm hand might make 10 coppers a day. The same was (and is) true in real life also. Most of us walk around with fives and tens in our wallet. Not hundred dollar bills. Adventurers wreck an economy because they they don't make a steady pay. They roll into a town with more gold than the population will see in a year, and then literally blow it on everything even remotely worth buying.

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Re: Frivolous and unbalanced items
« Reply #71 on: March 22, 2015, 12:06:20 AM »
But wasn't that more for like coins and currency? like it takes 10 silver coins to be the same as 1 gold? 100 copper is the same as 1 gold.

Yes, but that's likely because your average NPC is going to have more access to something like silver than gold as based on their job. A farmer might make 10 silver a day while a farm hand might make 10 coppers a day. The same was (and is) true in real life also. Most of us walk around with fives and tens in our wallet. Not hundred dollar bills. Adventurers wreck an economy because they they don't make a steady pay. They roll into a town with more gold than the population will see in a year, and then literally blow it on everything even remotely worth buying.
Stimulates the villages economy, but they need to wash off the outlander cooties.

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chuuch1

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Re: Frivolous and unbalanced items
« Reply #72 on: March 22, 2015, 12:09:47 AM »
What about the mineable Platinum and Gold Ore Veins that have no monetary value or any crafting value?

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Re: Frivolous and unbalanced items
« Reply #73 on: March 22, 2015, 02:59:20 AM »
But wasn't that more for like coins and currency? like it takes 10 silver coins to be the same as 1 gold? 100 copper is the same as 1 gold.
Yes, but you have to remember you're not dealing with a modern fiat currency, where a dollar is worth a dollar because the government says so. These coins are worth what they're worth because of their metal content. So a gold piece is worth what it's worth because it is gold, not because of which government issued it.

No no I understand that. I've played enough games that used gold silver and copper currency,
Though I will agree with OphissSss on that why do we have them or why do they weigh 10lbs if we can't make and crafting use of them and they sell for little to nothing, I've heard 10 pound copper bars have been dropping in the coffins in the ML crypt like mad also or the steel bars that drop from the mechanical golems in ALhoon who have been dropping those for a long time but had no use. Why have these if they have no use?

Actually the "rack" golems now drop usable steel ingots instead of steel bars so kudos for that change.

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Re: Frivolous and unbalanced items
« Reply #74 on: March 22, 2015, 11:13:01 PM »
Just noticed that War Fans and Masterwork War Fans have no difference in stats. The normal War Fan is red, however, while the Masterwork is blue. It's the only difference I could spot.