Barovian Legal System

[Truth_USMC]

Just wanted to get some general canon type info on the legal system in Barovia, I'd like to play a character that's sort of like a prosecutor and was wondering if that's possible by joining perhaps the garda faction or possibly the wachters?  Any other input is appreciated.  Thanks

[Purist]

The Wachter faction was terminated, as far as I know. PCs involved there either left the faction and continued their lives, or those who chose to stay became NPCs. There isn't much a "prosecutor" thing in barovi, IMO. It is a medieval society, guards are like Judge Dredd in some ways.

[Dread]

There no longer is a Wachter faction, the plot that saw the faction was a part of has ended. Also, it's a feudal society, so you're not really going to see people brought into a court type environment. I suggest if you want to get into playing a prosecutor or solictor, that you look into Dementlieu. I have taken to people to court over a host of different things in the past there.

[Dhark]

As I recall there have been judicial records keepers in the citadel of Vallaki, its the closest thing I can think of. 

[DirtyGoblin]

Wasn't there something about Barovian mimicking Borca in some ways such as a little judicial law, mercantile small and other more eh conceptual things?

[herkles]

Just wanted to get some general canon type info on the legal system in Barovia, I'd like to play a character that's sort of like a prosecutor and was wondering if that's possible by joining perhaps the garda faction or possibly the wachters?  Any other input is appreciated.  Thanks

There are three laws of barovia which strahd oversees, and they are simple break them and die.
1.) don't steal from him
2.) don't kill vistani
3.) don't enter castle ravenloft without invention

Beyond that the local lords get to rule as they see fit. Each Boyar or Burgomaster gets to make his or her rules as they fit. They often appoint local magistrates to rule the land, but laws are not the same. What may be legal in the village may be illigal in vallaki and so on.

If you are interested in this I highly recommend Dementlieu over Barovia. Dementlieu actually does court trials with prosecutors and the like.

[Theorem Of Neutrality]

From my personal interactions with law enforcement in Barovia, here's my observations:

Guardsmen know the laws/crimes of the land and the punishment for those crimes and are basically judge, jury and executioner for lesser crimes. Greater crimes may warrant the attention of the Burgomaster or Boyar, and the guardsmen are beholden to the Burgomaster or Boyar as servants of the Count. The Count holds all ultimate temporal and legal power and can override anyone else if he must - in other words, if Strahd gets involved, you're pretty much screwed.

[Merry Munchkin]

I think lawyers are probably viewed just like wizards -- speaking evil vraja with their mouths. 

[Geiger]

All:
God save your majesty!

Cade:
I thank you, good people—there shall be no money; all shall eat
and drink on my score, and I will apparel them all in one livery,
that they may agree like brothers, and worship me their lord.

Dick:
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.

Cade:
Nay, that I mean to do.

Henry The Sixth, Part 2 Act 4, scene 2, 71–78

[Daboomer]

I think lawyers are probably viewed just like wizards -- speaking evil vraja with their mouths. 

So it's like today heh

[APorg]

There were lawyers in medieval times in Europe -- most of them were probably priests.

In Barovia, likely, the role of judge and peacekeeper falls to the local Boyar or Burgomaster; locals would come to his court to complain and seek redress. A lawyer in this case would basically be a spokesperson, renown for a talent for speaking well and perhaps well-versed in the precedent rulings of this particular Boyar or Burgomaster.

[DM Vinculum]

Appro. has presented what is most likely closest to what we'd see in Barovia. The practicality of that as a player concept is very very difficult. Major issues would simply not arise often enough to give the player something to do.

[APorg]

Appro. has presented what is most likely closest to what we'd see in Barovia. The practicality of that as a player concept is very very difficult. Major issues would simply not arise often enough to give the player something to do.

Yeah, plus Barovian legal practices may not really be objective, just or fair -- they hardly were just in the real world.

http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/about-the-judiciary/history-of-the-judiciary/

Today, going on trial in an English and Welsh court is not exactly a comfortable experience. But it’s far better than trial by ordeal, used until almost the end of the 12th century to determine guilt or innocence in criminal cases.

Under this system, the accused would be forced to pick up a red hot bar of iron, pluck a stone out of a cauldron of boiling water, or something equally painful and dangerous.

If their hand had begun to heal after three days they were considered to have God on their side, thus proving their innocence. The number of ‘not guilty’ verdicts recorded by this system is not known.

On second thoughts, this sounds like a hell of a lot of fun to roleplay

[Bluebomber4evr]

Also, bear in mind that medieval courts were quite different than what we are used to today, and were a lot less fair. They did not have juries, the burden of proof was on the accused, and punishments varied based on one's status in society.

If you were accused of a crime, you could simply give your word/swear on your honor that you did not do it, and whether your word/honor was good enough depended on your social standing; a noble's word was given much more consideration than a peasant's.

The accuser could also challenge the accused to trial by combat, with the winner proven right/innocent. This, too, was unfair for those of lower social standing.

Then there was the trial by ordeal, where the guilt or innocence of the accused was determined by subjecting them to unpleasant, often dangerous situations. The idea being that God would intervene and save an innocent person.

These things largely disappeared in the real world by the 1500s.

[APorg]

Right, that's something that's not been stated clearly enough until now -- being a feudal society, there's basically one law for the nobility and one law for the commoners. Most outlanders, being foreigners, would have a hard time being recognised as a nobleman unless they'd managed to impress the Barovians enough.

[TheRingBearer]

Something to note about the trial by Ordeal... There is actually a line of thought that makes them a lot more effective than you might think otherwise.

http://freakonomics.com/2014/07/10/what-do-king-solomon-and-david-lee-roth-have-in-common-full-transcript/


Quotation summaries:
"two-thirds of the more than 200 people who are commanded—in a church, by a priest—to grab onto a piece of red-hot iron are not burned."

...

"Okay, how can this possibly be? How were two-thirds of the defendants not burned by a hot iron bar? Did God exonerate the innocent and punish the guilty? That’s not how Peter Leeson sees it. He explains this in two words: “Priestly rigging.” That’s right, the priests were arranging things so that most defendants who accepted the ordeal wouldn’t get burned by the hot iron bar or a cauldron of boiling water. Now, why would that be? Were the priests simply exercising a bit of human mercy? Did they maybe take bribes from some defendants? Not according to Peter Leeson. Here’s what he thinks was happening. Most people at the time likely believed in an almighty God who knew whether a defendant was guilty or innocent – and, accordingly, would burn the guilty man but protect the innocent man. For a defendant, knowing that God knows what you did or didn’t do, would affect your behavior. It changes the incentives.

LEESON: The key here is that because the priests know that the innocent person’s incentive is to undergo the ordeal, they also know that on the other side of it, the guilty person’s incentive is to decline the ordeal. The reason for that is exactly the flip-form of thinking. So now imagine that you did steal the sheep. Now you’re thinking, ‘Well, I know that if I undergo the ordeal, if I put my arm in the boiling water, I’m going to have my arm boiled to rags, because I am in fact guilty. God’s not going to perform the miracle. And in the process, on top of that, I’m going to be convicted of the crime.’ It’s better for me to simply either settle with the accuser or to confess to the crime and enjoy a somewhat less harsh punishment.

DUBNER: OK, so that explains why, if I were guilty, I would decline the ordeal and accept my penalty. But if I’m innocent, I would undergo the ordeal. And then what?

LEESON: Well, that’s the key thing. So the priest now knows that the incentive of the innocent person only is to undergo the ordeal. The guilty person is going to decline. Because the priest knows that, conditional on you being willing to undergo the ordeal, you reveal, if you will, this private information that you have about your guilt or innocence. You reveal the fact that you’re innocent to the priest. Now, in order, of course, to be exonerated, the water needs to not boil you. And so the priest’s job is, conditional to knowing that you’re innocent, is to turn down the dial on the stove, so to speak, to ensure that the water doesn’t boil you and exonerates you, as you expect."

[Bluebomber4evr]

The trial by ordeal stuff isn't much relevant to Barovia, however, as Barovians are generally not religious, there is no official religion for the state, and none of the boyars/burgomasters would endorse one.

[Blight]

You know, i think this thread brings up something pretty useful - that aside from the Count's Three Laws, that local laws are rather subjective to the boyar or burgomaster.

Currently, our laws are for "all of barovia," but that isn't necessarily true. We treat breaking a law in vallaki .like it counts for all of Barovia. But there are often local laws that differ and perhaps we should consider changing the roleplay resources to reflect this.

I'd almost dare to say that breaking a law in Vallaki doesn't necessarily mean you're wanted in the Village. It's not exactly the same jurisdiction.

[Bluebomber4evr]

You know, i think this thread brings up something pretty useful - that aside from the Count's Three Laws, that local laws are rather subjective to the boyar or burgomaster.

Currently, our laws are for "all of barovia," but that isn't necessarily true. We treat breaking a law in vallaki .like it counts for all of Barovia. But there are often local laws that differ and perhaps we should consider changing the roleplay resources to reflect this.

I'd almost dare to say that breaking a law in Vallaki doesn't necessarily mean you're wanted in the Village. It's not exactly the same jurisdiction.

What you're describing is how it was always was supposed to be. Anyone not doing that was doing it wrong.

[herkles]

You know, i think this thread brings up something pretty useful - that aside from the Count's Three Laws, that local laws are rather subjective to the boyar or burgomaster.

Currently, our laws are for "all of barovia," but that isn't necessarily true. We treat breaking a law in vallaki .like it counts for all of Barovia. But there are often local laws that differ and perhaps we should consider changing the roleplay resources to reflect this.

I'd almost dare to say that breaking a law in Vallaki doesn't necessarily mean you're wanted in the Village. It's not exactly the same jurisdiction.

What you're describing is how it was always was supposed to be. Anyone not doing that was doing it wrong.

of course this thread implies the opposite that barovia has a unified list of laws beyond the three laws

[herkles]

Anyways here is what the gazeteer says on barovia and law.

Beyond these laws, Burgomasters and boyars may rule as they see fit. Strahd's demands for tribute are quite irregular, but his shrewd accounts keep detailed records of all the realm's economic activity.  On sporadic occasions, a burdensome levy is called down from Castle Ravenloft on all Barovians, representing the accrued debts of the previous months or even years. More regular local taxes are still collected by Strahd's vassals, primarily to fund the maintenance of civic order.

Loyal career soldiers or mercenaries in the direct service of Strahd's vassals patrol most settlements of western Barovia, the growing discontent and violance among ethnic Gundarakites amplify the need for a strong military presence. Accordingly, western burgomasters and boyars offer handsome stipends to lure ethnic Barovians down from the mountains and into their militias. Accordingly, the bulk of the soldiers in Gundarakite settlements are poor farmers or herders from the east, seeking a better life through military service. The Gundarakites are ostensibly controlled through the presence of these troops, as well as local edicts that forbid them from owning weapons larger than a common dagger.

Beyond maintaining such forces, the burgomasters and boyars occupy themselves principally with economic matters. They shape taxation and the regulation of trade for the benefit of their own treasuries and keep a perpetual eye on the guilds lest they become too powerful. Local magistrates are appointed by these vassals to handle the realm's petty civil disputes. Military officers, who act as judges, juries, and executioners carry out criminal justice in swift and brutal fashion.

[Bluebomber4evr]

You know, i think this thread brings up something pretty useful - that aside from the Count's Three Laws, that local laws are rather subjective to the boyar or burgomaster.

Currently, our laws are for "all of barovia," but that isn't necessarily true. We treat breaking a law in vallaki .like it counts for all of Barovia. But there are often local laws that differ and perhaps we should consider changing the roleplay resources to reflect this.

I'd almost dare to say that breaking a law in Vallaki doesn't necessarily mean you're wanted in the Village. It's not exactly the same jurisdiction.

What you're describing is how it was always was supposed to be. Anyone not doing that was doing it wrong.

of course this thread implies the opposite that barovia has a unified list of laws beyond the three laws

I was referring to the part where he says "breaking a law in Vallaki doesn't necessarily mean you're wanted in the Village. It's not exactly the same jurisdiction." We've always tried to hammer this point home to the players of the Vallaki Guard faction.

[Blight]

I remember having a character set as a faction enemy of the vallaki guard like six years ago, when I went to the village the npc guards there autoattacked me. I don't know if it's been changed, but if that's still the case then maybe village guards, krezk guards, and vallski guards should be set up as different factions.

[TAP123]

I remember having a character set as a faction enemy of the vallaki guard like six years ago, when I went to the village the npc guards there autoattacked me. I don't know if it's been changed, but if that's still the case then maybe village guards, krezk guards, and vallski guards should be set up as different factions.

This seems like a good idea. I've been having issues where my character is at a dangerous DCR level in Vallaki. Because of rumor mongering the character is on occasion attacked by the public, as is part of the game mechanics, having an effective 15 to 16 rating. However, taking the time to travel to the village of Barovia, immediately once she came within sight of a village guard he chased her 3 areas away all the way into the woods. With no laws justifying this and only acting on rumor, how did the village guards receive rumor of a woman they have never seen before? And how would a guard out of the blew instantly recognize whoever the person was when they're in different clothing and such unless they hang around the city regularly?

I'll probably make a post detailing my own issue with this, but I would think that unless someone is a wanted criminal that the small accounts of spellcasters would blend with the basic tales of Werewolves and Vampires, unless said spellcasters spent a good amount of time locally in a city.

[Blight]

I remember having a character set as a faction enemy of the vallaki guard like six years ago, when I went to the village the npc guards there autoattacked me. I don't know if it's been changed, but if that's still the case then maybe village guards, krezk guards, and vallski guards should be set up as different factions.

This seems like a good idea. I've been having issues where my character is at a dangerous DCR level in Vallaki. Because of rumor mongering the character is on occasion attacked by the public, as is part of the game mechanics, having an effective 15 to 16 rating. However, taking the time to travel to the village of Barovia, immediately once she came within sight of a village guard he chased her 3 areas away all the way into the woods. With no laws justifying this and only acting on rumor, how did the village guards receive rumor of a woman they have never seen before? And how would a guard out of the blew instantly recognize whoever the person was when they're in different clothing and such unless they hang around the city regularly?

I'll probably make a post detailing my own issue with this, but I would think that unless someone is a wanted criminal that the small accounts of spellcasters would blend with the basic tales of Werewolves and Vampires, unless said spellcasters spent a good amount of time locally in a city.

That's a little different than what i'm describing. Being set to faction enemy of the Vallaki Guard shoudn't mean all guards from different cities are hostile to you. There's often times when conflicts between the Vallaki Guard and PCs are a local matter that other villages just wouldn't care about. Having a high OCR rating, on the other hand, is a system based on the actions people perform in public. Think of it as a reputation system. Being a faction enemy of the Vallaki Guard doesn't necessarily equal a high OCR rating, though. Either a person automatically has a high OCR from a "monstrous" race or a "monstrous" reputation. Beating up a guard with your bare hands in Vallaki, for example, doesn't mean that the Guards in Krezk are going to waste their time arresting you or attacking you.