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Author Topic: Gothic Horror  (Read 20116 times)

Katarina

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Gothic Horror
« on: January 15, 2015, 03:36:36 AM »
What is gothic horror to you? How does this server best embody the gothic horror genre to you?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 03:39:56 AM by Katarina »

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Re: Gothic Horror
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2015, 08:06:13 AM »
The way I see it there is Gothic Horror and Fantasy Gothic Horror (then you get Cosmic Horror, and torture/slasher horror etc. that clearly not gothic horror in any way but some try to shoehorn those in from time to time.... even the setting itself does it... I.E. Bluetspur. I'll say more about that later)

The books that best define Gothic Horror for me are "Dracula", "Frankenstein", "The Invisible Man", "The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" and "the Phantom of the Opera". For me everything that Gothic Horror is in those works. If its not in one of those books, its not Gothic Horror for me. The common element of these is the the character's choice. To stand against evil or to fall into it. Standing against evil (no matter the personal outcome) = win. Falling to evil (no matter the justifications) = loose. Morality matters.

Then you have Fantasy Gothic Horror. I would include in this almost all the movie versions of those books, especially those that bring more action, excitement, and humor into the mix.

I consider Ravenloft to be Fantasy Gothic Horror. Well kinda. You see when Ravenloft was just a module it was clearly a action fantasy adventure with gothic horror themes, kind of like that movie "Van Helsing" staring Hugh Jackman. Every time I either played that module or ran it, it ALWAYS ended up being like that movie.

Then they came out wit the house of griffin hill and that had a more serious murder mystery tone to it. Which was great. However again every time I either ran or played that module it ALWAYS ended up more like the movie "Van Helsing"

Then they came out with the campaign world and now things got "very serious" in comparison to the modules. You had dark powers, different domains based on different kinds of horror (like Bluetspur, but I don't remember that from second edition really. I think as they kept adding to the campaign world they kept trying to be all things to all people and I don't think that detracted from things overall).

I only ever played second edition D&D. I was done when they brought out 3rd edition so I don't really know what changes they made to Ravenloft for that. (All my 3rd edition experience is solely with the NWN engine.)

I don't actually remember if it was house rules or official rules but when we played second edition Ravenloft it was all about not falling to evil. They had a rather detailed alignment tracking mechanic and we had to start playing some kind of Good alignment. I remember all the dark powers checks mostly shifted your alignment toward evil. Sometimes you would get a negative appearance altering curse like effect as a warning with maybe a very minor benefit. If you ever lost a roll and your alignment ever actually became evil... BAM instant Darklord status... game over, hand in your character sheet, reroll a new one. Even with all of that our games were more adventure and action oriented although our games played more like the movie "Solomon Kane" than "Van Helsing".

Again I have no idea what 3rd edition changed but since the server is has lots of changes to 3rd edition rules I can only assume the server is fairly close to what they did for PNP (as much as is possible when you translate a setting to a different medium).

Personally the closer Ravenloft gets to its origin, the more I like it.  I prefer the way we played second edition and having everyone have to start good. I like the concept of Ravenloft as a series of themed modules that you can insert into whatever world you are playing in far better than it being its own campaign setting. (The dark powers come to you instead of you coming to them)

As far as Prisoners of the Mist goes, I have a "love/what the frell are you making me have to deal with now?!!" relationship with it.

I find the server's mechanics very frustrating for my tastes but its still fun enough (when you finally find a regular group of characters to rp with) to keep me playing (albeit with regular breaks). Overall I think what hey have done with the server is brilliant really. It is by far the best constructed and atmospheric server I have ever seen. The people that actually put together each map area are simply artist/wizards. All the detail put into every area is astonishing and every single map area has its own tone and mood.... and the tone and mood changes with time of day and weather... astonishingly brilliant. All that work makes it really easy to play off the setting.

Anyway, I never considered Ravenloft as actual Gothic Horror. For me Ravenloft is its best when its a sword and sorcery romp though old Transylvania instead of a slow cautionary tale about actions and consequences.
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Re: Gothic Horror
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2015, 08:29:35 AM »
Tragedy.

That really defines it for me.

Loneliness. Hopelessness. Powerlessness. Obsession.
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Re: Gothic Horror
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2015, 11:21:07 AM »
Tragedy.

That really defines it for me.

Loneliness. Hopelessness. Powerlessness. Obsession.

I will agree with this. Feeling powerless in helping your friend in need or that feeling of hopelessness you get when even when trying your hardest to succeed in your mission only to fail in the end by some small factor or choice you made. Or that feeling of Loneliness you get when you feel no one understands you or the problems you face

I will also add having the moral struggle between the good and evil. (Now i know some might not understand what I mean by this so I will do my best ot explain even though i'm terrible at that.) By Moral stuggle i mean where your character knows its the wrong thing to do but is struggling to either come to terms with What they did or if they should. You don't even need to be good aligned to have the moral struggle. That bandit you just killed what if he had a family that he was trying to help raise with a wife?

Do they deserve a second chance? can they be redeemed? can I live with myself for taking their life? Can I do such again if I have to? Should I help them? Should i leave them to die? Do I seek my revenge..?

There are many things which drives our moral compass and its the things that try and point us in the other direction that we fight against that I believe breaths life and a gothic horror into our stories and characters as they struggle to hold onto what peices of themselves they can in this world ( Hopefully this made some kind of sense.. it made more sense to me)

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Re: Gothic Horror
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2015, 11:53:11 AM »
Powerlessness, Inadequacy, Hopelessness, Being consistently under prepared to face the challenges at hand. Feeling small and insignificant when compared to the 'enemy' and being faced with two equally unappealing choices and having to choose one; a world where even the 'happy' endings are bittersweet.

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Re: Gothic Horror
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2015, 01:41:34 PM »
To me gothic horror is a hero pitted against some diabolical evil (often very vague) as the story / plot unfolds desperate choices the hero choses show the flaws in his/her character , so that at the climax of the story is apparent that the hero is just as much of a villan and his quary

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Re: Gothic Horror
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2015, 09:04:14 PM »
The classic literary definition of gothic horror is a combination of horror and romanticism, but to me that is a bit superficial.  It is a particular TYPE of romanticism that, in my humble opinion, generates the horror portion of gothic horror.

To me, all other forms of horror are about the body (i.e. physical harm), while gothic horror is about the soul (i.e. spiritual damnation).  The classic horror fiction like Dracula, Frankenstein, Jekyll and Hyde, and even Faust are never ultimately about physical death or injury, but about going down pathways from which your soul can never return.

Someone previously mentioned tragedy, and I think that is partly true, but only in the sense that each person in a gothic horror is ultimately confronted with a choice -- and the tragic choice leads to damnation.


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Re: Gothic Horror
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2015, 09:36:59 PM »
The classic literary definition of gothic horror is a combination of horror and romanticism, but to me that is a bit superficial.  It is a particular TYPE of romanticism that, in my humble opinion, generates the horror portion of gothic horror.

To me, all other forms of horror are about the body (i.e. physical harm), while gothic horror is about the soul (i.e. spiritual damnation).  The classic horror fiction like Dracula, Frankenstein, Jekyll and Hyde, and even Faust are never ultimately about physical death or injury, but about going down pathways from which your soul can never return.

Someone previously mentioned tragedy, and I think that is partly true, but only in the sense that each person in a gothic horror is ultimately confronted with a choice -- and the tragic choice leads to damnation.
Correct. It is primarily a morality play, in which the horrors of losing one's soul to temptation and sin are shown for all to see.

While these are fairly anachronistic concepts in the 21st century, they were a big deal during Gothic literature's heyday in the 18th century. When done right, however, it can still resonate with modern sensibilities -- in particular Mary Shelley's Frankenstein explores the Gothic morality without being heavily religious, and it is considered to be one of the earliest science fiction novels while also being Gothic Horror.

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Re: Gothic Horror
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2015, 04:59:53 AM »
Just to add on to the awesome two responses above this one, that aspect of choice/lack of choice plays a prominent role in Gothic Horror. The work of Byron gives us some of the finest examples of Gothic characters, who have a pure nature, but languish constantly against dark temptations and indulgences that would lead them down the path of evil. Therein lies the tragedy of the genre - the dashing of innocence and the loss of purity.

Not only is there good and evil, says the Gothic hero, but evil is more powerful than good and it makes good all the more necessary. Not only does God exist, says the Gothic hero, but in seeking vengeance against the dark and impure, you are doing his will.

The elements of the Gothic story usually place people against an insurmountable force of evil that they either overcome inadvertently (through their purity and conviction), or by carefully and faithfully unraveling the antagonist's designs (through their purity and conviction). Other Gothic stories (Frankenstein) are more character studies, and show the downfall of the impure by their own hand.
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Re: Gothic Horror
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2015, 09:29:03 AM »
Just to add on to the awesome two responses above this one, that aspect of choice/lack of choice plays a prominent role in Gothic Horror. The work of Byron gives us some of the finest examples of Gothic characters, who have a pure nature, but languish constantly against dark temptations and indulgences that would lead them down the path of evil. Therein lies the tragedy of the genre - the dashing of innocence and the loss of purity.

Not only is there good and evil, says the Gothic hero, but evil is more powerful than good and it makes good all the more necessary. Not only does God exist, says the Gothic hero, but in seeking vengeance against the dark and impure, you are doing his will.

The elements of the Gothic story usually place people against an insurmountable force of evil that they either overcome inadvertently (through their purity and conviction), or by carefully and faithfully unraveling the antagonist's designs (through their purity and conviction). Other Gothic stories (Frankenstein) are more character studies, and show the downfall of the impure by their own hand.

Just remember that vengeance is a slippery slope in Ravenloft, and isn't wholly a virtue in the eyes of the Dark Powers.

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Re: Gothic Horror
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2015, 09:16:12 PM »
While these are fairly anachronistic concepts in the 21st century, they were a big deal during Gothic literature's heyday in the 18th century. When done right, however, it can still resonate with modern sensibilities -- in particular Mary Shelley's Frankenstein explores the Gothic morality without being heavily religious, and it is considered to be one of the earliest science fiction novels while also being Gothic Horror.


While it is somewhat rare to see true gothic horror in any modern genres, they do still exist -- albeit many of them are remakes of earlier movies/stories.  For example, Jeff Goldblum's modern retelling of "The Fly" is a great example.  Johnny Depp's "Sweeney Todd" is another.  As trite as Stephen King can be sometimes, his "Pet Sematary" is a good example of a more modern take on gothic horror.  The sci fi horror movie "Event Horizon" could also be characterized as a modern gothic horror set in space.  "Pan's Labyrinth" sort of defies normal classification, but it certainly has gothic horror elements to it.

All in all, however, it is hard to find many examples of good modern gothic horror.  Everything has been overtaken by science fiction and fantasy, or slasher or killer-hordes or boogeyman variety horror.  I guess it is all about the special effects nowadays.


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Re: Gothic Horror
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2015, 09:17:59 PM »
"Event Horizon" is more cosmic horror than anything else.

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Re: Gothic Horror
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2015, 01:22:52 AM »
I am dealing with 18th century novel, this year, with my students and we're gradually entering the gothic novel/ romanticism period.

I will be as brief as I can, since I am about to go to work.

"Gothic" was a label, but what we nowadays call gothic was an element also of previous literature and culture. I am thinking about the moral choices in epic poems, always to succumb to some Fate (that also in Greek tragedy), Seneca's vision of horror related to morality, Dante's system of sin-retribution and all the background stories of the characters in his "Inferno", the already mentioned morality plays, and many Elizabethan plays ("Doctor Faustus" by Marlowe, for instance, but also less famous ones such as "The Duchess of Amalfi" by, if I recall, Middleton, or very famous ones such as "Macbeth" by Shakespeare). So, really, that kind of feel has always to some extent existed in mankind, and through the ages it has been dealt with some popular or more traditional forms (epic, theatre, poetry, etc).

The development of the first Gothic novels (speaking of Walpole, Radcliffe, etc), rises in a period of reaction against the moral attitude led by the influent Puritan-mindset middle class, going more for evasion literature, but also, to some extent, to "simplify" good and evil in a more recognized way: hero-heroine-villain this is the scheme of first gothic novels. At the same time there is a reaction to Enlighntment and to the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. I believe that about this, it's fundamental being aware of the notion of "sublime" which starts being explored in this period, especially in Burke's theories. Taking it from wiki:

"Edmund Burke's concept of the sublime was developed in A Philosophical Enquiry into the Origin of Our Ideas of the Sublime and Beautiful (1756).[2] Burke was the first philosopher to argue that the sublime and the beautiful are mutually exclusive. The dichotomy is not as simple as Dennis' opposition, but antithetical to the same degree as light and darkness. Beauty may be accentuated by light, but either intense light or darkness (the absence of light) is sublime to the degree that it can obliterate the sight of an object. The imagination is moved to awe and instilled with a degree of horror by what is "dark, uncertain, and confused."[5] While the relationship of the sublime and the beautiful is one of mutual exclusiveness, either one can produce pleasure. The sublime may inspire horror, but one receives pleasure in knowing that the perception is a fiction.[6]".

And gradually gothic novel developed more, it had a small falldown, it was joked about (Austen's "Northanger Abbey", for instance), but also taken to a higher degree, free from the pure spirit of evasion of the previous 40-50 years. The turning point IS "Frankenstein" by Mary Shelley. If you're still interested I will actually explain why, in my opinion.

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Re: Gothic Horror
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2015, 02:04:45 AM »
I'd like to contribute to this thread, but GlamRock wins.

Closest thing to gothic horror I've experienced is when some Goth kids jacked my smokes off my front porch years ago.
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Re: Gothic Horror
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2015, 07:38:39 AM »
"Frankenstein" breaks many rules of the genre. The legend of its genesis is known, what some people forget is that in that night in Switzerland, where famous intellectuals (P.B.Shelley, Byron) almost challenged those they reputed inferior (M.Shelley, William Polidori), Polidori, Byron's assistant, himself wrote "The Vampire", clearly inspired to his "boss", and basically having already in it most of the features of Stoker's "Dracula" (extremely charming person, the person who drains the life energy of the others): we know a bit of the myth of the Byronic hero.

Let's go back to "Frankenstein". There is no clear hero or clear villain: the doctor and the monster are both, at different stages of their story. The setting is no more some ancient backwater place, but advanced Switzerland (mostly), not a middle ages Catholic country but a modern Calvinist one (and Calvinism being the main source for Puritans, see above). Dark and light mingle, we (and probably also M.Shelley's audience) sometimes feel unease yet enthusiastic about the Doctor's hubris. He is a hero, but he is overeaching and as the characters of the myths (Prometheus, Icarus) the higher the fly the sounder they fall. He challenges the basic law of nature, he tries to replace God's role in life and death. But as Blue stated, this book is also the probable ancestor of science fiction. Yes, because we must not forget Gothic novel, as a genre, reacted against Enlightment. So, on a more narrow sighted level, we could consider it also as a simple allegory on the danger of science.

So, M.Shelley showed you didn't need specific schemes in characters, and their own development was part of the pleasure of reading; she showed you didn't need ancient places, or imaginary settings, you could use the here and now; she showed that a message, not necessarily a Puritan or religious message, could be conveyed allegorically. It could still entertain you, and show darkness and light, evil and good, in struggle, and even more confusionary struggle. She paved a possible way.

Gothic novel in the 19th century had a more complex life and development. On a side, it got back to its own origins, that is a more schematic and entertaining aimed genre. Even then, a book such as "Wuthering Heights" by E.Bronte is considered one of the masterpieces of novel in genre, and actually it is: yet it is definitely and quintessensially gothic, for its irrational passions leading to damnation, for the ghosts, for the atmosphere: "I am Heathcliff" says poor Catherine shortly after she has caused with her choice her own fall along that of Heathcliff himself. But Victorian novel became a sort of institution, and still you needed to convey a moral message if you wanted to be considered a serious writer, and not just the writer of "rubbish". People were slightly more literate, there had been reforms, and had more free time, literature of evasion and entertainment was widespread, because most people, even if they could read, could not face too difficult or complex works. Gothic didn't die: there are many gothic elements in Dickens, one of the most typical Victorian writers, you just need to think about discomforting Miss Havisham in "Great Expectations", or the world-wide-known "Christmas Carol".

Some writers, especially in the late Victorian period, experimented the use of proper Gothic novel as an allegory, more or less as M.Shelley had done. I won't reduce "Dracula" to a criticism of colonialism, nor "Doctor Jeckil and Mister Hyde" to a criticism of the double façade of Victorians, but we cannot deny there are elements of this too. Good and evil becomes shaded, as they were in "Frankenstein", as they were in "Wuthering Heights", it becomes matter of obsession, lust, strong passions, and, above all, of choices. And the century closes with Oscar Wilde's "The Picture of Dorian Gray", which, to some extent, has all those things too, and was written by a person who normally worked for bourgeoise theatre and was known for his witty conversations.

Unfortunately my own knowledge on 1900 gothic novels is limited. I could say more on previous periods, but more or less this is the development of the genre. Once I may waste some time of mine and trying to approach things such as "Twilight" and "Vampire's Diaries", but I fear they come more from the development of romance (and mind, things such as "Wuthering Heights" can be inserted there too) than of proper gothic. Plus, I've completely overlooked, at this stage, all the influence of science fiction, fantasy, translations of Grimm Brothers' tales, which to some extent also influence "culture", in general, of the Victorian period. I've also ignored all the development of American gothic (Irving, Hawthorne, Poe, H.James) which had a strong influence later, and unfortunately my own Ph.D. is just in Literature of English Speaking Countries, so not enough lore on other countries (though I may add "Pinocchio" has several gothic elements, some Hugo's works, Gogol, Kafka, etc)
« Last Edit: January 17, 2015, 07:45:49 AM by --GlamRock-- »
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Re: Gothic Horror
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2015, 10:32:35 AM »
Random question based on Glamrock's post. Could one have gothic horror if it had trappings of a different culture or religion instead of victorian prostantism? Lets say Japan with shintoism/Buddhism, egypt and islam or kemeticism?


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Re: Gothic Horror
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2015, 11:34:27 AM »
That makes me actually very curious too...
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Re: Gothic Horror
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2015, 12:07:27 PM »
I have always been a huge fan of William Faulkner's work, being a Southerner myself and a fan of all types of Gothic literature. I would highly recommend reading "A Rose for Emily", should you ever get the chance to do so. It's a short story, and not very long, but it gives you a sense of what Southern gothic is all about.

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Re: Gothic Horror
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2015, 12:37:10 PM »
Just to add on to the awesome two responses above this one, that aspect of choice/lack of choice plays a prominent role in Gothic Horror. The work of Byron gives us some of the finest examples of Gothic characters, who have a pure nature, but languish constantly against dark temptations and indulgences that would lead them down the path of evil. Therein lies the tragedy of the genre - the dashing of innocence and the loss of purity.

Not only is there good and evil, says the Gothic hero, but evil is more powerful than good and it makes good all the more necessary. Not only does God exist, says the Gothic hero, but in seeking vengeance against the dark and impure, you are doing his will.

The elements of the Gothic story usually place people against an insurmountable force of evil that they either overcome inadvertently (through their purity and conviction), or by carefully and faithfully unraveling the antagonist's designs (through their purity and conviction). Other Gothic stories (Frankenstein) are more character studies, and show the downfall of the impure by their own hand.

Just remember that vengeance is a slippery slope in Ravenloft, and isn't wholly a virtue in the eyes of the Dark Powers.

I was sort of counting on it actually.....

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Re: Gothic Horror
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2015, 02:22:34 PM »
Random question based on Glamrock's post. Could one have gothic horror if it had trappings of a different culture or religion instead of victorian prostantism? Lets say Japan with shintoism/Buddhism, egypt and islam or kemeticism?
Yes, see William Beckford's Vathek: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vathek

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Re: Gothic Horror
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2015, 03:50:12 PM »
Random question based on Glamrock's post. Could one have gothic horror if it had trappings of a different culture or religion instead of victorian prostantism? Lets say Japan with shintoism/Buddhism, egypt and islam or kemeticism?

I think you could have "horror' in other trappings, but, perhaps not "gothic horror"

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Re: Gothic Horror
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2015, 04:13:28 PM »
Random question based on Glamrock's post. Could one have gothic horror if it had trappings of a different culture or religion instead of victorian prostantism? Lets say Japan with shintoism/Buddhism, egypt and islam or kemeticism?

I think you could have "horror' in other trappings, but, perhaps not "gothic horror"

That's not really true. Look at the post I made just before you.

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Re: Gothic Horror
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2015, 07:11:33 PM »
Just be aware it's very hard to pull off those other cultures and do them justice. Unless you have a background involving those cultures it takes a little homework. :(

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Re: Gothic Horror
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2015, 07:15:09 PM »

The development of the first Gothic novels (speaking of Walpole, Radcliffe, etc), rises in a period of reaction against the moral attitude led by the influent Puritan-mindset middle class, going more for evasion literature, but also, to some extent, to "simplify" good and evil in a more recognized way: hero-heroine-villain this is the scheme of first gothic novels. At the same time there is a reaction to Enlighntment and to the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. I believe that about this, it's fundamental being aware of the notion of "sublime" which starts being explored in this period, especially in Burke's theories.


I would quibble only in the sense that the Romanticism aspect of gothic horror was less a reaction against a Puritan-mindset, and more of a reaction against the prevailing Enlightenment focus on Realism -- the gothic horror (like most art forms that embraced Romanticism) emphasized the fantastic/fantasy/myth versus reality/logic, and feelings versus rationality (in a sense, the Salem Witch Trials were a real-life occurrence of gothic horror in a religious context).  Gothic horror very often reflected moral and religious themes, so it was not necessarily a rejection of the Puritan/Victorian so much as a desire to to reject the conventional in favor of mystery and artistic free expression.  In the religious context, you can see this same tension in all of the major monotheistic religions -- there is an ongoing and historical tension between those theologians who seek to comprehend God using rationality (for example, Aquinas and Avicenna in Christianity and Islam, respectively), and those theologians who advocated mysticism to comprehend God (mysticism should be understood not to mean superstition, but rather that God is incomprehensible to the mere human mind, and therefore to understand God required extra-rational means -- i.e. spiritual understanding).  It is neatly summed up in Hamlet with the saying "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."  In an arts sense, "sublime" as something transcending mere earthly characteristics is a similar facet on this age-old theme.





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Re: Gothic Horror
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2015, 07:30:20 PM »
Random question based on Glamrock's post. Could one have gothic horror if it had trappings of a different culture or religion instead of victorian prostantism? Lets say Japan with shintoism/Buddhism, egypt and islam or kemeticism?

See my post above -- it would be entirely possible to have the genre in a different setting, if we recognize that this genre is really about the tension between rationality versus mysticism (or the human versus "the other"), and how that tension affects the human soul.  The Victorians dove into the subject matter with gusto, creating great memorable works of fiction, but all of the themes could be extrapolated to other settings:

Jekyll and Hyde -- man's internal struggle with the beast within
Frankenstein -- man's desire to be godlike, pride in his own rationality, and tamper with the natural order
Dracula -- struggle with human sexuality, desire, and temptation
Faust -- exchanging the eternal soul for temporal benefits


Burleigh Burrowell - RIP