Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing

[Tycat]

And can we stop pretending that people don't immediately pretty much tell all of their friends with minimal or even no Rp

Highly offended. Not only did I not have this experience and I have not witnessed it (though I know it is the case in many situations) this is something I personally and some others on this server do not have to "pretend." Not only was I not told or shown it without RP, It was some of the single most intense RP I had when I was first shown it on my main. It was literally hours of intense and suspenseful RP. And here's another thing, the rest of my characters don't know about it. They are all waiting to be shown or told about it, in RP. I don't care what experiences you had where you think everyone get's the info from friends ooc,but it isn't very nice to make blanket statements like that to those of us who actually protect immersion.Then again, you've made generalized suggestions based off YOUR experience and part of me is disappointed you weren't thrown to the wolves (pun) when you were new like I was. I worked for all the gold, riches, and lore my characters have. No one handed it to me. No one told me all the secrets ooc. Even if i did know or have an inkling, I waited for the IC, the RP. the downlow. The goods. The digs, ya'll. When you assume we have all been given the cheat codes it cheapens the game only for you. 

While I said that I would love to see a system where they were only available by creation and loot if and only if we have scribe scroll available, I do NOT understand how one way or the other makes it more or less GOTHIC horror. It just gives us more reason to RP with each other, and removes these secret underground sects from Barovia. Maybe in time these places will be moved. Moved sounds like a better idea. D'loo would be a good market for Scrolls. In Vallaki there's a condemned store that was closed for selling scrolls, it gives you some feeling for the server's theme. It makes sense there would be Barovian oppressed shops rebeling against the law to sell their scrolls in their secret guild halls under the Barovian streets. Heck, even the Ezrite faction NPC sells divine scrolls in Vallaki. It makes sense for him to do it.

And who wouldn't love to see DARKON added to the server? Or Borca? Or any other number of places that could take over the scroll market?

Scribe Scroll would be great. Only because it would open a market for caster classes to peddle their witchcraft and interact with others. But you would have to keep in mind, Wizards/Arcanists are not the only ones who can take Scribe Scroll. Bards, Sorcs, Clerics, and druids can as well. Divine scrolls are just as desired and most of which can only be found in loot. So now when you open up the scribe scroll, you have this:

1. Money sinks become giving your gold to another character instead of sinking it. Luca's point was made that it's an excellent expense for high level characters who do have a good amount of funds. Once you remove merchants, it is open to the PC's who made the scroll, and they become the money sink making everyone richer.

2. More classes can make scrolls, not just wizards. So guess what? You're actually going to have more scrolls, more commonly. Why not make a stack of Harm scrolls? This sort of defeats the point made in the OP about it being wizards passing magic hand to hand and secretly. Because well, Clerics, Bards, Sorcs and Druids can also take this feat and will probably do that. Otherwise you can't necessarily remove the merchants, who sell divine scrolls OR loot table scrolls.

3. Inflation and Gifting will become a problem. Like any other craft, this will effect the economy. There will be those who undercharge or give away their scrolls, and those who will charge obscenely. Just like Enchanting. Just like any other craft. Consider what this would do. It might do nothing, it might improve things, it might be counter-intuitive. It's a wild card.

4. Availability. What if you are a player who doesn't see many other players because of your time zone, and when you play, there simply aren't any scribers online. Great. So now what do you do with your scroll user rogue? Just an example. It will hurt other people who suffer in those awkward times potentially. So the loot table might even have to be increased. Then the scrolls are super easy to obtain without any rp for the secret faction bases in which they are sold.


So while i would love to see scribe scroll be implemented practically, this is not a system that can support it in it's current state, nor is it a broken system that needs it.

[Apsalar]

At the end of the day, to me, there's nothing particularly horrifying in being better armed than some of the greatest Heroes in campaigns like the Forgotten Realms. In fact, if you look through the layouts of the Ravenloft NPCs , even the most powerful individuals only had a handful of items, not a full on arsenal of death that your PC can obtain by level 12.

Have you seen some of the equipment available to adventurers from the Ravenloft DMG? The majority of it is superior to what we have available on our server. Most equipment available in the D&D sourcebooks are also available to PCs in Ravenloft, the main difference in Ravenloft is that they are more expensive and rarer based on where the adventurers happen to be. Similarly, the only thing stopping people from acquiring scrolls is the attitudes toward magic in certain realms, which is represented by the locations of the magic shops in Barovia. Yes, magic and magic items are rare, but no, they are not completely unavailable to adventurers, the only reason they are prevalent in PotM is that we are a persistent world with many more adventurer characters than would exist in a tabletop campaign which is not going to change unless we force everyone to play a dirt-farming peasant.

I'm not sure what the image is supposed to demonstrate since Ravenloft is not a survival horror setting but I feel as if the majority of your dissatisfaction can likely be traced to a lack of understanding in the setting itself.

[emptyanima]

I will chime in and say that my IC discovery of the secret Mage guild was some of the best investigative RP I have had on the server. Sheridan was approached by two mages who had been clued into its existence, and its location in terms of which settlement it lies in, but had no idea how to move on. After trial, battle and error, Sheri found it, and the feeling IC and OOC was awesome, as I had no idea of its existence in both!

I waited a very long time before Variel was shown the way, and she lied through her teeth to beat the questions but she did not care, because the secret power motivated her! That was also great.

It has been a source for great RP for me, and I am sure it will continue to be for others!

As to the mages tower, the trip when you cannot stealth/invis can be very perilous!  At times even if you can because the enemies abuse the transitions sometimes The mages tower is full of secrets and fun stuff for RP.

My main point is that the existence of these scroll places makes for great RP, and I would hate to see the magic lost, if you will pardon the pun.

[IDreamofDaleks]

At the end of the day, to me, there's nothing particularly horrifying in being better armed than some of the greatest Heroes in campaigns like the Forgotten Realms. In fact, if you look through the layouts of the Ravenloft NPCs , even the most powerful individuals only had a handful of items, not a full on arsenal of death that your PC can obtain by level 12.

Have you seen some of the equipment available to adventurers from the Ravenloft DMG? The majority of it is superior to what we have available on our server. Most equipment available in the D&D sourcebooks are also available to PCs in Ravenloft, the main difference in Ravenloft is that they are more expensive and rarer based on where the adventurers happen to be. Similarly, the only thing stopping people from acquiring scrolls is the attitudes toward magic in certain realms, which is represented by the locations of the magic shops in Barovia. Yes, magic and magic items are rare, but no, they are not completely unavailable to adventurers, the only reason they are prevalent in PotM is that we are a persistent world with many more adventurer characters than would exist in a tabletop campaign which is not going to change unless we force everyone to play a dirt-farming peasant.

I'm not sure what the image is supposed to demonstrate since Ravenloft is not a survival horror setting but I feel as if the majority of your dissatisfaction can likely be traced to a lack of understanding in the setting itself.

I did not realize that the Mystran Temple and the Tower in the mountains were from Canon. I don't remember reading about either of them in the source books, but maybe I overlooked something. Re-reading my first post, It was too knee jerk, definitely. Upon further inspection , What I was actually going for wasn't so much removing them entirely. I just think the higher level spells (4+) should be either removed, or perhaps made limited to one/reset.  I guess the other question to look into is if we're actually -trying- to be a low magic server. Because, in my experience, one of the things low-med magic servers try to actually do is limit the level of consumables and their availability; or make them less reaching, or powerful in some way when compared to the casted spells.  I realize one issue with this comes in at later levels, where this starts to do something funny with the balance between caster classes and non caster classes; but I'm going purely off of hearsay there, as I'm not entirely sure as to what exactly it really -does-.

More over, I still hold by the fact that Wizard > Wizard RP and Merchant RP would be more fun if Scribe Scroll were made available again so that they may trade knowledge with one another and others (oft right under the noses of the Garda, who would obviously want to see a stop to such a thing) rather than just being able to purchase stacks of Shadow Shield, or Improved Invisibility or What have you off of Merchant A or B or C.

The image above was made in bad taste due to a number of different posts read on the forums over the past few days and I apologize for it in that it has little to do with the conversation at hand. I would not say that my dissatisfaction comes from a lack of understanding from the setting; but I will say that it may stem from a lack of understanding of the fact that some of the things I've read about in source books and some of the themes that work so well in literature may not transfer perfectly into a PW setting, as you said.  I will say that It's my understanding that "Gothic Horror" has more in common with survival horror in themes than it does Action horror; but neither are 100% accurate depictions.  It will be removed.


To directly answer your question: Yes, I've seen some of that equipment (Though more so the player's guide and the Arsenal; I avoid DMG unless I'm actually DMing the setting)  and some of the altered spells and what they are capable of (I'm also thinking of the alchemical compounds and consumables as well); the difference is, a lot a lot of these held a danger (DP Checks, etc) that cannot accurately be depicted in a PW setting without scripting things that we frankly probably shouldn't or constant DM attention everywhere, which goes back to what I said above.


Tycat: Omg yes Darkon, also, you are -right- I did forget that while Wizards get scribe scroll for free, other classes can take it! That makes all of this even better.

[camrik]

I have been playing on the server for a few months and I read the forum on a regular basis. A couple of months ago, I read a post and looked at the spoiler that was included with the post.

The image showed a very high level PC in action and the quick bar at the bottom of the screen could be seen. The PC, who was not a mage, had one of the quick bar slot filled with ten (10) time stop scrolls.

I stared at the image for a while as I could not really believe someone would (could) have so many scrolls of one of the most powerful spell in the game.

There have been good arguments presented on both sides (MM and Tycat most notably) for and against the selling of scrolls by NPC on the server, but one thing I believe we can agree on is that no one should walk around with 10 time stop scrolls - we are not talking about potion of cure light wound here. I'm sure glad there is no wish spell in the game...

[herkles]

On Darkon, wouldn't we have to rule that the whole memory fog thing doesn't happen? as IIRC after a certain amount of time in darkon your memories re-arrange and you assume you are from darkon.

[Syl]

You don't want to see my rogue's scroll bag then..while she only has 1 time stop. but a lot of other high level scrolls.. How ever she doesn't use them very often in fear of drawback and basklash. But you can't really stop someone from carrying so many scrolls... What you could do however I'll throw up in the wish list since it came to mind just now.

[EO]

We're looking into this right now. What we are discussing is the idea to limit scrolls sold in shops to level 7 spells and below. Also we'd spread out the scrolls a bit more, likely based on school of magic (like what is done in Dementlieu). Thematically speaking, this encourages wizards to visit obscure bookshops and mage retreats to find rare scrolls instead of just going to one place and getting everything.

[Super Sugar]

I have been playing on the server for a few months and I read the forum on a regular basis. A couple of months ago, I read a post and looked at the spoiler that was included with the post.

The image showed a very high level PC in action and the quick bar at the bottom of the screen could be seen. The PC, who was not a mage, had one of the quick bar slot filled with ten (10) time stop scrolls.

I stared at the image for a while as I could not really believe someone would (could) have so many scrolls of one of the most powerful spell in the game.

There have been good arguments presented on both sides (MM and Tycat most notably) for and against the selling of scrolls by NPC on the server, but one thing I believe we can agree on is that no one should walk around with 10 time stop scrolls - we are not talking about potion of cure light wound here. I'm sure glad there is no wish spell in the game...

As frightening as this is, I believe the person in question has been playing for a long while, and rarely uses these scrolls, meaning they may have been collected over time.  (Speculating)

[herkles]

We're looking into this right now. What we are discussing is the idea to restrict scrolls sold in shops to level 7 and below. Also we'd spread out the scrolls a bit more, likely based on school of magic (like what is done in Dementlieu). Thematically speaking, this encourages wizards to visit obscure bookshops and mage retreats to find rare scrolls instead of just going to one place and getting everything.

does that mean that wizards who are say level 6 will click on this shopkeeper and the shopkeeper will go "you are not the right level come back later"?
or would they be in more dangerous areas that require being a higher level to reach them?

[EO]

does that mean that wizards who are say level 6 will click on this shopkeeper and the shopkeeper will go "you are not the right level come back later"?
or would they be in more dangerous areas that require being a higher level to reach them?

Spell levels; I'll correct the word "restricting" to "limiting".

[poisonivy2]

I have to say that I TOTALLY agree with Dalek Dreams. Anything to make it closer to "reality" pleases me. Spell selection should be a CRITICAL decision for wizards. Sadly, here they can simply pick any random spells when leveling and run to the shop to "complete the list".

I used to play on a server where scrolls were only avaiable in loots and by buying from someone who scribed them for you. Once our group had to organize a huge quest to find someone able to cast "Legend Lore" and in the end we had to rely on a DM NPC because not a single wizard, sorcerer or bard on the server knew the spell. This is real and AWESOME.

[IDreamofDaleks]

We're looking into this right now. What we are discussing is the idea to limit scrolls sold in shops to level 7 spells and below. Also we'd spread out the scrolls a bit more, likely based on school of magic (like what is done in Dementlieu). Thematically speaking, this encourages wizards to visit obscure bookshops and mage retreats to find rare scrolls instead of just going to one place and getting everything.

EO: This is awesome I'm glad this is being looked into. I really did not mean to offend any of the developers with anything I said,  because I do appreciate what all of you do.

With that in mind, 7 and below is still a bit extreme, since that gives you Acid Sheath, Shadow Shield and Tensors Transformation ad infinitum if you have the coin for it, which are  some of the big ridiculous ones at that level.  I'd say level 5 may be more realistic, or:

Alternatively, not selling specific scrolls that could be seen as problematic in this fashion, or limiting said scrolls. A third option would be to not sell any scrolls that only target the caster and cannot be cast on others. That way, it limits spells like Tensors Transformation, Shadow Shield, Acid Sheath, and Mantle to people who are actually casters or find a rare scroll in the loot table or. OR. GASP can get someone to scribe them for them!

[EO]

If we had scribe scroll then limiting it further would be an option but without that it cripples wizards too much. However we don't want to reimplement the NwN default scribe scroll; we'd need to come up with our own crafting system, which isn't in the plans at the moment.

[herkles]

If we had scribe scroll then limiting it further would be an option but without that it cripples wizards too much. However we don't want to reimplement the NwN default scribe scroll; we'd need to come up with our own crafting system, which isn't in the plans at the moment.

just curious what is wrong with the default scribe scroll mechanic

[IDreamofDaleks]

EO, That's completely understandable as to why we don't want to limit spells at a certain level and below, However, for the specific ones that it may be problematic to have unlimited copies of (I can think of , specifically, three or four), why not just limit them so that casters will have to take those on level up? With a vast array of scrolls that -are- available via a merchant , limiting the few problematic ones to level up or find in loot table only doesn't seem so extreme.

[Apsalar]

If we had scribe scroll then limiting it further would be an option but without that it cripples wizards too much. However we don't want to reimplement the NwN default scribe scroll; we'd need to come up with our own crafting system, which isn't in the plans at the moment.

just curious what is wrong with the default scribe scroll mechanic

It wouldn't work with our experience system.

EO, That's completely understandable as to why we don't want to limit spells at a certain level and below, However, for the specific ones that it may be problematic to have unlimited copies of (I can think of , specifically, three or four), why not just limit them so that casters will have to take those on level up? With a vast array of scrolls that -are- available via a merchant , limiting the few problematic ones to level up or find in loot table only doesn't seem so extreme.

What problematic scrolls are currently available from stores?

[IDreamofDaleks]

The scrolls I have in mind that I was able to confirm are available in merchants:

Shadow Shield
Tensor's Transformation


I will update this as more information becomes available (I'm at work and can't check myself)

[Bad_Bud]

What's wrong with being able to buy and use Tenser's Transformation scrolls?

[Syl]

The scrolls I have in mind that I was able to confirm are available in merchants:

Shadow Shield
Tensor's Transformation


I will update this as more information becomes available (I'm at work and can't check myself)

I don't really see many people using tenser's transformation and i didn't know it was sold accept for in one place and even still thats about 1,200 gold a pop... Not cheap at all.

[IDreamofDaleks]

What's wrong with being able to buy and use Tenser's Transformation scrolls?

Honestly, the answer to that question depends on whether this:

One the surface, the Realm of Dread seems much like any other low magic setting (see chapter 6 in the Dungeon Master's Guide) found on the Material Plane. Spellcasters are rare, and common folk seldom witness the supernatural, understanding it only through folklore (though that folklore is frighteningly prevalent). However, few of Ravenloft's denizens know that the natural laws of their world have been insidiously rewritten.

Low Magic: In a low-magic game, spellcasters and magic treasure are about twice as rare as normal. Magic items aren’t for sale because they’re too rare to ever think of parting with for mere gold. The occasional trade of an item or its sale for gold is possible, of course, but it is a rarity in the economic structure.

And

Far too often, I see people make statements like "this is a low magic setting, that item's too powerful!" as if "low magic" meant that all magic is underpowered and weak. This is a misconception. A setting that is described as "low" or "high" in magic is referring to how commonplace magic is in that world. The actual power of magic is not affected by this. Magic in Ravenloft overall is at the same power level as any other D&D setting (though certain types of magic are either weaker or stronger). It's just rarer here than other settings.

are still accurate. Assuming they are, I think that having these types and levels of spell being readily available, rather than limited to loot or levelup, as EO seemed to be suggesting for spells over 7th circle, goes against the ideas and ideals posted above.  This is merely an opinion. Perhaps the issue is once again translating a campaign setting into a PW environment, but in the long run, I personally believe that removing 7+ spells as well as the few powerful self-cast spells in the 5th-7th circles from merchants will go a long way towards meeting these ideals.

[McNastea]

There's a difference between something being available and readily available. One of the shops you can buy these at is very hidden and only accessible by arcane casters, not to mention the scrolls themselves aren't cheap. The other is a long way from anything, and again, you're still paying a good amount of gold. The other shops sell exactly 1 of each scroll, and in the case of the more powerful ones, they're exceptionally and prohibitively expensive to the point that I don't even buy them-not to mention unless you know how to get there and are pretty crafty you'll never find it and or die on the way.

Again, these things are all availabe-it's a player world. But you're trivializing what you have to do to get them-and it's by ignoring that fact that you're able to argue that this is higher magic than it is. Just my take on it.

[Apsalar]

I don't consider Tenser's to be a particularly overpowering spell as a scroll. I believe the scroll lasts 13 rounds and you need to succeed a UMD check to make use of it. You're most likely either casting it in cloth before combat or in armour in combat, the former method sacrificing rounds of the spell and the latter risking arcane spell failure. I also don't see why anyone would stock up on the scrolls when there are Tenser's and Divine Power items in loot that are relatively easy to hoard if you're willing to put any effort into it, and likewise I don't consider them particularly overpowering.

Shadow Shield is a powerful spell but it's also more or less an amalgamation of effects you can already obtain from potions. Natural Armour, Death Immunity, Negative Energy Immunity, the exception being the DR. An argument can certainly be made for making it more difficult to obtain but it is already pretty expensive, and as EO has said we're looking at spacing out scrolls across the server. I'm not actually against removing the Shadow Shield scrolls but neither do I see any particular reason to do so.

Overall I'm of the opinion that you're underestimating the difficulty and cost involved in obtaining and using scrolls and also overestimating how imbalanced they might be. Sure, there are going to be people who farm a lot of gold and keep stacks of the things in their inventories but in my years of playing here I've never noticed it causing any significant imbalance in power, and I certainly don't think we should handicap wizards by making half the scrolls they need to learn spells unavailable.

[Lucadia]

I dont understand what issue is that players can buy scrolls such as shadow shield and tensers. I put out, that requires the pc having trained in umd, spell craft or have levels as a spellcaster already to even use them. So why are we trivializing skills?

Use of scrolls  are also short burst due to duration .

Iv no idea how many times Iv been able to save a party wipe in a dangerous dungeon with the use of shadow shield also, as theres not much anything else to counter horrid wilting spam by npcs. There was already measures placed in spawns also that by pass +3 damage reduction the spell offers.

You have get the gold to buy the scrolls. Time and effort
You have locate the shops, get there alive or bribe another wizard. I never minded a wizard that charged me extra off the top for going buy a supply for me.
You have have the required skills, umd, spell craft, spellcasting class. Your also likely a person thats using light armor with spell failure issues.

and answered yourself about what a low level magic server is. Its just as powerful, but its just rarer. All the previous notes, is one that that makes it rarer .

Your also not offering anyone reasons why these spells are "problematic" in the first place

Edit: I dont recall any items that cast teners. We have divine power. Ill also point out, divine power is better to hoard then tensers scrolls. Once you turn on tensers, you have hundred percent spell failure until it wears off.  Oh and that con wearing off when on low health. Fun

[Syl]

We do have those Rare. tensor's in a bottle drinks if your in armor you horde those like they are going out of style