Author Topic: Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing  (Read 12369 times)

IDreamofDaleks

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Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing
« on: January 05, 2015, 04:10:24 PM »
I don't have a rightly idea of where to put this, but it's just a suggestion.

Can we get rid of the merchant in the tower of baratak and , even worse, the god forsaken mystran temple in Village of Barovia and wherever else is selling boat loads of scrolls up to the 7th wizard level for anyone with enough gold to suddenly load every spell onto themselves? With that said, can we reopen the ability to scribe scrolls for an XP and GP cost. Trading scrolls secretly with wizards after Rping an initial fear of sharing the secret that you can cast them and trading knowledge and secrets to one another at a cost is literally excellent RP , and it will stop every Wizard from having every spell ever and open up a wider variety of RP and combat tactical prowess, in my opinion. Honestly, in a setting that is supposed to be med-low magic, I can't understand how this would've come to pass in the first place.  Who'se making all of these scrolls? Where are they coming from? How has no one killed these people yet? Is there a lore related reason I'm missing?


Thoughts?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 04:12:38 PM by Dalek Dreams »

Syl

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Re: Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2015, 04:23:20 PM »
THe only common place anybody can go to for scrolls is the northern tower. otherwise if your not a mage you can't use the village one and even still. you have to answer a question i believe to gain entrence.

Removing them fully? I don't think that would be a worth wild idea. ( not because i don't play a mage very offten) but instead maybe remove those fifth level spell scrolls and up from the shop completly? meaning they would only have level four circle and lower which only has one or two more commonly used spells.?

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McNastea

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Re: Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2015, 04:50:50 PM »
There are other places you can go for scrolls as well and you both missed the only place with 9th circle scrolls ;)

Anyways, is that really a temple of mystra? I only ever saw it labeled as the temple of mysteries with no mention of mystra anywhere-but I guess that's not the point

I really miss the scribe scroll stuff but honestly getting rid of buying scrolls entirely in lieu of that doesn't seem like a good option-maybe a middle ground. I'd point out that something like this would only serve to make mages even more powerful than they are since they'd have a lock on all the magic in the land instead of people like rogues and bards being able to take advantage of these things also
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IDreamofDaleks

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Re: Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2015, 04:52:03 PM »
There's....a place with 9th circle scrolls?

...

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Syl

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Re: Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2015, 04:55:42 PM »
Yeah somewhere in... sithicus... right mcnasty?

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McNastea

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Re: Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2015, 04:56:45 PM »
I'll never tell and you'll never ever be able to afford it anyway  :twisted:

Also-it's "McNastea" gah
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Syl

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Re: Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2015, 05:01:36 PM »
I'll never tell and you'll never ever be able to afford it anyway  :twisted:

Also-it's "McNastea" gah
Call it a smart phone being dumb for the showing lol :P

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armybrat69

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Re: Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2015, 08:16:35 PM »
I agree with McNastea (not Mcnasty :P) there can be a middle ground vs removing these shops altogether. The "mystra" temple only allows mages that answer the questions correctly anyway and have a high enough spot/search. If balance is an issue just limit either the top tier spells sold by removing as Syl said anything above 5th circle and add the others to the loot table (which I think already are) or limit how many of a certain type are sold per reset. I saw this implemented on another server and did seem to help with balance.
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Syl

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Re: Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2015, 08:21:29 PM »
I believe none of the mage shops that are being spoken of Sell necromancy scrolls also.

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armybrat69

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Re: Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2015, 09:37:27 PM »
Actually there is one that does sell necromancy scrolls only (Shhhhhh)
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Syl

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Re: Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2015, 09:45:39 PM »
Actually there is one that does sell necromancy scrolls only (Shhhhhh)

Oh right we're not suppose to mention that one. * hides*

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Re: Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2015, 11:35:23 PM »
I would love to find scrolls only in loot, and by hand making them. IF and only if we implement the Scribe Scroll feat. If not, it's not worth it to remove the shops. And let's be honest - those shops are NOT accessible to everyone/anyone. That's a blanket statement because it's easy for YOU. It's not easy for everyone. It certainly isn't in my experience.
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IDreamofDaleks

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Re: Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2015, 12:13:46 AM »
I would love to find scrolls only in loot, and by hand making them. IF and only if we implement the Scribe Scroll feat. If not, it's not worth it to remove the shops.

I am of similar feeling on the matter. I just don't think that, even if I had enough gold, I should especially in two seperate places in -Barovia- of all domains, be able to hit a new spell circle level, and then immediately buy scrolls to get a decent chunk of the spells that even matter from said circle.  I don't like it, It detracts from RP that would be made possible if Wizards could share their knowledge via RP or scribe scroll (I actually know a server that scripted in a system that didn't use scribe scroll, but a tutoring system to teach spells with rolls to discern if you learned it) and it makes me personally feel like the setting is way more high magic than it is. Maybe It would be believable in Darkon or something, which is basically D&D Plus  here's some undead. But...Barovia?

And can we stop pretending that people don't immediately pretty much tell all of their friends with minimal or even no Rp
1. How to get to the secret place in VoB and where the door is and
2. How to correctly answer most of the questions?

EDIT Because I don't want to post again: Merry Munchkin I literally love everything you just said down there.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 12:19:48 AM by Dalek Dreams »

Merry Munchkin

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Re: Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2015, 12:14:50 AM »
Spell scarcity is a concept that I think would greatly enhance any server, just like the lack of really powerful magic items enhances PoTM.  A scroll of any spell becomes  highly meaningful to wizards, and finding a cache of even low level scrolls (if they are currently unknown) would be the equivalent of finding the tomb of King Tut.  Implementing scribe scroll would create a flourishing wizard-to-wizard market for new spells, as characters would potentially offer lopsided trades in order to fill out their spellbook repertoire.

Needless to say, it would still be possible for a cabal of wizards to conspire to each study different spells and then exchange them among themselves, but I am not sure that would be terribly satisfactory for the players involved -- each character would end up with identical spellbooks, which means they are all reduntant from a we-need-a-wizard-in-our-party perspective.

For rogues and bards and UMD, I think it is perfectly acceptable to have a few merchants about that deal in first and second level scrolls -- given the chance of failure with UMD, most rogues or bards are likely to be relying on a select handful of basic level spells anyway (mage armor, protection from alignment, magic weapon, ghostly visage, camouflage, etc.).    I don't think you need or want any merchants that deal in scrolls beyond those levels.  Besides, you want rogues and bards to be safeguarding their precious scroll loot just as much as wizards do, right?

But I agree with the foundational premise stated earlier -- you need to implement some sort of scroll scribing if you are going to eliminate merchants.


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Lucadia

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Re: Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2015, 03:15:12 AM »
No. Scroll shops are a good gold sink on any pc thats looking to waste it, when scrolls can cost upwards to 20k or so.

it also trivializes the use of umd on classes that have it for casting higher level scrolls. Your no longer being rewarded when you do find a scroll, because your hording it and you dont know when you ever use it. You will spend mass amounts of gold if your capable of buying them, and it it makes it hard for another player to guess what trick you could pull out of your hat in a situation .

Your also not "improving" tactical prowless on a wizard, nor are you improving a parties . Great, your wizard only knows fireball because nobody would trade him a haste scroll.

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Re: Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2015, 03:49:05 AM »
Lucadia, *nod nod*

Merry Munchkin, if you put enough in to UMD you can very much so use the most powerful scrolls at high levels especially if you have any spellcraft so I'd disagree that either of those classes would only be interested in the low level buffs.

Dalek, just because you were told how to get there and how to answer the questions doesn't mean everyone was, my wizard for one did have to rp for me to even know there was a temple. Then he had to find the specific place himself and figure out how to answer the questions himself. He found it at I think level 9 or 10? Even then he never has enough gold to just go in and buy every scroll so just because you can do that doesn't mean doing that is an option for everyone. Plus, these scrolls since you ask are being made by the wizards in the temple and the tower. What do you figure they do all day every day? They're making them and making them available for other mages to comes learn, partially so that wizards aren't shitty sorcerers.

Also, you can't buy every scroll even if you find and go to every shop that has scrolls and fork over a ton of gold. They're simply not all available.
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Mereyn

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Re: Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2015, 04:29:17 AM »
In any case, what I believe a heavy "point of view" in the recent discussion of the level cap, progression and now the way to acquire scrolls, is, that it always requires that the player in question is capable of producing or getting the required resources of even getting one of these scrolls. It is essentially a grind to get money to get the scrolls, and to get to the scrolls you'll have to walk a relative unsafe way for a low to mid level non-wizard, if it's the tower you're looking for. The temple of mysteries in the VoB isn't even an option for someone who doesn't have a wizard-buddy.

In the end it's based off the players discretion towards it, not the system that makes it available, I think. Reading the recent threads lets me think it's taken for granted that you just have the resources to get what you want, which in my experience is quite different. But more to the point, I'd appreciate the idea of being able to scribe scrolls yourself. But if that were the only way to acquire scrolls, high level wizards would have a monopoly on that (if scribing scrolls were done as by the rules of D&D (sacrificing xp and money for the sake of a scroll, basically.), that is.), I hope you can see the problems that might be caused by that. Hopefully I didn't derail too much with my ramble.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 04:36:23 AM by Mereyn »

IDreamofDaleks

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Re: Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2015, 10:18:44 AM »
I'm starting to think that trying to 'fix' something that has been broken for so long , or, more appropriately change something that has been one way for so long, no matter what it is, and even if it would lend itself better to the overall gothic themes of the server, will always be met with retaliation and reluctance. As it stands, I just cannot bring myself to believe that this can even be considered a Gothic Horror server anymore. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that, really...But when this server does go balls to the wall to make itself what it's advertised as (Be it through DM Atmosphere, AMPCs/MPCs and crazy awesome player driven story arcs) It is awesome and one of the best places I can imagine playing.

At the end of the day, to me, there's nothing particularly horrifying in being better armed than some of the greatest Heroes in campaigns like the Forgotten Realms. In fact, if you look through the layouts of the Ravenloft NPCs , even the most powerful individuals only had a handful of items, not a full on arsenal of death that your PC can obtain by level 12.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 09:37:30 AM by Dalek Dreams »

A normal snake

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Re: Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2015, 11:14:23 AM »
PotM (as far as I know) has never been survival horror, if that's the experience you're looking for you might enjoy one of the zombie survival servers. It's insulting towards the development team and the effort they've poured into the server to post an image like that.

One part of the server vision is making the server viable for multiple playstyles. Just because you don't like a particular playstyle doesn't mean the team doesn't want it to exist. If you want to be a positive change in the game world, cool. But don't be an elitist about it.

Syl

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Re: Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2015, 11:29:23 AM »
In the end, this picture can speak better than I can:



Thank you for participating in this discussion.


Can i just say? I love Dino Crisis and the old resident evil games. love all the RE games save for 6...

How ever if you thre Half those games on the right side on the hard difficulty in the begining save for F.E.A.R L4D and Dead rising. ( never played dead Island so wouldn't know) You would find that lack of ammo and lack of health items, making things MUCH harder and are still very much like many of the games on the left in terms of challenge. Most the games on the right are missing the puzzle aspect  like it was in the left collum. Like in RE 1 i recall having to hit a button on one side of the Mansion and having to RUUUUUN to the other side before a door closed... ( Sorry i know thats off topic but i just had to throw in my two cents.)

But I will have to agree with Ophis on this one. even when i joined i was told this was a gothic horror setting. " GOTHIC...Horror" Not survival or action horror. So i already figured and when i describe the server i call it gothic horror. Werewolfs vampires ghouls. things that go bump in the night, go bump in the night. I don't expect to be a sole surviver. Or even a surviver. i'm just following a story. Also i have to ask...

What does the setting have to do with the scrolls and scroll shops again? I think this changed courses a bit :) :D

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Dumas

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Re: Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2015, 12:01:38 PM »
From what I've felt, scrolls are pretty fairly balanced out in the server with availability. Sure, you can go to the tower in the mountains and by a lot, but they don't have everything, and it is a hell of a hike for people with limited play time. I don't even know how to get to this scroll shop in the Village that has been mentioned.. and I've been playing for a while, so... I tend to say that perhaps there is suitable mystery around that one to prevent overuse.

One thing I've always been curious about with scrolls is.. well, how many arcane words and symbols are crammed onto that piece of parchment? Is it just like a phrase? Or a whole description with hand movements and all that jazz? Are these things supposed to be hard to read in the heat of battle? Especially... in the dark, haha. That might be more of an RP discussion on the use of scrolls through. Heh, thinking about it, I have enough trouble using scrolls in combat mechanically as it is, with attacks of opportunity and inventory shuffling. Usually limit them to before battle.

But yeah, Syl, Ophis, I gotta agree with that notion too... Our Ravenloft server has a distinct feel of Gothic Horror, which seems a distinct genre from both action and survival. I think the team has done a great job to present that, and I've not gotten that anywhere else in the gaming world!

Merry Munchkin

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Re: Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2015, 07:35:31 PM »
No. Scroll shops are a good gold sink on any pc thats looking to waste it, when scrolls can cost upwards to 20k or so.

it also trivializes the use of umd on classes that have it for casting higher level scrolls. Your no longer being rewarded when you do find a scroll, because your hording it and you dont know when you ever use it. You will spend mass amounts of gold if your capable of buying them, and it it makes it hard for another player to guess what trick you could pull out of your hat in a situation .

Your also not "improving" tactical prowless on a wizard, nor are you improving a parties . Great, your wizard only knows fireball because nobody would trade him a haste scroll.

Three observations on your points:

1.  The issue of needing a gold sink opens up another debate on the relative wealth of high level characters.  I don't want to digress, but in short, the need for gold sinks is an indication of a different underlying problem, and is not a justification for spell merchants itself.
2.  UMD is not being trivialized in the least. The inability to buy scrolls from a merchant does not mean you are somehow equally incapable of buying the scroll you want from another player -- as long as scribe scroll is implemented, there should be ample spellcasters around, and at least one or two who are capable of scribing the scroll you want.  The player just has to negotiate with that character.  This also creates a reason for rogues and bards to actually TRADE their looted scrolls to their friendly neighborhood wizard, since both benefit -- the wizard improves his or her spellbook, and the rogue or bard gets to negotiate a deal for a steady supply of whatever scrolls they are interested in.  I see players selling crafted merchandise all the time, and there appears to be no lack of available product merely because there are not any NPC merchants selling the same stuff.  It is all about the RP.
3.  The tactical abilities of a wizard or a party should be completely unaffected -- if a wizard can't get somebody to trade him a haste scroll, then that just means he or she is offering a lousy deal in return.  Everything is for sale, as long as you are willing to meet the sellers price, or offer a better alternative deal.  If a player can't get the scroll they want, that just means they are not RPing or negotiating very effectively.

Not having a merchant sell a particular item should ultimately not change whether that item remains available to players, it simply means that players must obtain such items from other players.  In effect, other players take the place of the merchants.  In my view, this is a good thing, because it forces what everybody claims they want more of -- player to player RP.


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Merry Munchkin

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Re: Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2015, 07:41:22 PM »


Merry Munchkin, if you put enough in to UMD you can very much so use the most powerful scrolls at high levels especially if you have any spellcraft so I'd disagree that either of those classes would only be interested in the low level buffs.



I don't have any high level characters (my highest level is only 10), and so UMD is largely focused on lower level buffing scrolls for me, and I imagine a great many players as well.  Nevertheless, if you are a high level character that has maxed out their skill points in UMD, you are absolutely correct that you can cast high level scrolls.  However, this is largely irrelevant as to whether you NEED an NPC merchant to sell you those high level scrolls.  As I pointed out to Lucadia, there is a very healthy player-to-player economy that I have witnessed firsthand, and as long as wizard players have the ability to scribe scrolls like other players smith weapons, make varnishes, or brew potions, then there should be no lack of trading partners who will happily take orders for the scrolls you are interested in.  I think it is important that players recognize that there is a difference between saying "scrolls are not available for purchase at NPC merchants" versus "scrolls are not available for purchase". 


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Merry Munchkin

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Re: Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2015, 07:56:52 PM »
In any case, what I believe a heavy "point of view" in the recent discussion of the level cap, progression and now the way to acquire scrolls, is, that it always requires that the player in question is capable of producing or getting the required resources of even getting one of these scrolls. It is essentially a grind to get money to get the scrolls, and to get to the scrolls you'll have to walk a relative unsafe way for a low to mid level non-wizard, if it's the tower you're looking for. The temple of mysteries in the VoB isn't even an option for someone who doesn't have a wizard-buddy.

In the end it's based off the players discretion towards it, not the system that makes it available, I think. Reading the recent threads lets me think it's taken for granted that you just have the resources to get what you want, which in my experience is quite different. But more to the point, I'd appreciate the idea of being able to scribe scrolls yourself. But if that were the only way to acquire scrolls, high level wizards would have a monopoly on that (if scribing scrolls were done as by the rules of D&D (sacrificing xp and money for the sake of a scroll, basically.), that is.), I hope you can see the problems that might be caused by that. Hopefully I didn't derail too much with my ramble.


There are two ways to interpret your points.  On one hand, you are saying that it is really really hard to get high level scrolls from most of the NPC merchants therefore few people make the attempt; however, if that is the case, then eliminating those merchants would not really have much of a noticeable effect on the playerbase as a whole.  On the other hand, if you are saying that it is really really hard to get to those NPC merchants, therefore there should be a pot of gold at the end of that particular rainbow, then in effect we are treating these NPC merchants as a high level loot drop.  I'm not certain whether either reason is a justification for NEEDING these types of NPC merchants in the mod.

As far as wizards having a monopoly on scrolls, I think that is an incorrect assumption. Monopoly means sole-source, and that is clearly not the case.  First, scrolls can be obtained from loot drops.  Second, characters that find scrolls but can't use them are perfectly capable of selling those scrolls to other players.  One of my charcters has done exactly that, hooking up casters of different levels with "vraja writing" for a negotiated price.  Third, no single wizard character has a monopoly on anything.  Any wizard would be capable of scribing scrolls (assuming it is implemented), so lower level scrolls should be in abundance.  As wizards increase in level, they become additional sources of higher level scrolls.  In fact, lower level casters cnd trade with higher level casters to exchange spells unknown to the other.  Although many casters typically chose to learn the same standard portfolio of spells upon level-up, a savvy character might actually choose to learn other spells instead, and then trade that knowledge to other characters in exchange for their knowledge.  In short, there is no reason to think that any one character will somehow obtain an exclusive monopoly on particular spells, or that somehow there would not develop a thriving economy in spell trading.


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Re: Scrolls, Selling, and Scribing
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2015, 01:56:46 AM »
For once i totally agree with you Luca :mrgreen:
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