Author Topic: Level progression  (Read 52276 times)

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #175 on: November 07, 2015, 06:24:10 PM »

Wizard and sorcerers stays behind all the time, they provide wards then get behind, cast a few spell, but otherwise they don't do much in a battle.


Mostly true at lower levels, but once a wizard or sorc is around lvl 12-13, a player that knows what he is doing will be a huge asset in some fights. Try doing the last room of the Harvest Temple without a mage throwing fireballs around... you'll have a hard time!!!

Wizards and Sorcerers really start doing more in battles around those levels, but then, their power is exponential and they are the ones that can win a lose a battle most of time(i know same can be said of everyone in a balance group, but still)

True, spell caster are really useful and can be a great asset in a fight, though they still stay behind most of the time waiting for the good occasion to throw a spell. Sorcerer might throw more spells than wizard because they have more spell per day, but the fact remain that wizard and sorcerer don't get much action except the occasional spell they will cast
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Re: Level progression
« Reply #176 on: November 08, 2015, 12:39:02 AM »
Invest in a bow and hang back, if with a good group you will get some buffs and can do damage

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #177 on: November 08, 2015, 06:40:29 AM »
It'd be pretty fun if wizards/sorcerers had some more often-usable minor abilities.. I feel Pillars of Eternity did its thing excellently in this regard. But yea, this is NWN and DnD 3.5. And a bit off-topic, too. :P

Quote
I'm having to sacrifice roleplay just to keep up.

And this, if you really have because to sacrifice Roleplay to keep up with other, then maybe you should try hanging with other people who level at rate closer to your. There is no point in playing a Roleplay game if you never get the chance to Roleplay  :)

I do see some validity in the above claim. There's a pretty big difference in the leveling paces of people, and you kind of have to join up in the megagroups now and then even if you didn't want to and occasionally forgo your character's opinions if you want to keep up the average pace, 'less you solo well or have a frequently playing existing group of pals who can take on big challenges.

When one lags behind, it's easy to tell them that they ought to then just play with different people, but we don't have thousands of players to pick your pals from. We've from 10 to 60 players online at any time; There's only so much wiggling space there if you don't want to lag behind in their overall average leveling pace.

I personally continue to maintain that a slower leveling pace would give less incentive for people to make choices based solely on how much XP they will be getting. However, I wouldn't want to slow down the pace of leveling of those who now are "uncapped" or at slight "positive cap", because leveling up for those players already takes a reasonable time, I feel.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 07:12:50 AM by Exordium »

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #178 on: November 08, 2015, 08:56:47 AM »
Id point out that if your having sacrafice rp to keep up, then perhaps the others are more interested in leveling first, then rping. So short of giving /more/ exp for rping based on your own cap . .

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #179 on: November 08, 2015, 03:59:57 PM »
I personally continue to maintain that a slower leveling pace would give less incentive for people to make choices based solely on how much XP they will be getting.

I'm inclined to disagree with you on that. I don't believe that any amount of throttling of the leveling pace will stop people who want to gain xp and level over everything else from finding the best way of doing so and capitalizing on it. It might slow them down, sure. But if that's what someone wants to do with their game time that's what they're gonna do with it ya know?

Similarly, if less rp xp was given, do you think the people that play purely for the rp of the game would rp any less? Or if it was harder to make gold the people who like to become absurdly wealthy wouldn't still find the best way to make gold and make as much as they could off it?
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Re: Level progression
« Reply #180 on: November 08, 2015, 05:18:11 PM »
Given Powergamer, who is motivated purely by XP/levelling.

Given Socializer, who is motivated purely by roleplay.

Reducing the XP for both activities affects *only* Powergamer's motivation. Socializer is unaffected.

If Powergamer was motivated purely by *adventuring* (liking to kill monsters, say) rather than XP/levelling, then the two would be equivalent, but as stipulated, they're not.

I agree that "people who want to gain xp and level over everything else" will find how to do that. Hence, capping adventuring XP pushes powergamers toward power roleplaying.
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Re: Level progression
« Reply #181 on: November 08, 2015, 05:36:46 PM »
capping adventuring XP pushes powergamers toward power roleplaying.

Define what you mean by power roleplaying....

There isn't any way to power roleplay in my opinion, roleplay is roleplay and the first objective to playing this game is roleplaying. Perhaps one they hit cap adventuring XP some people will go make RP xp by roleplaying until they can do adventuring XP again at a good pace. But isn't that the goal to find way to make people RP more?

I think even if some people tries to "power roleplay", which isn't really possible in my opinion, the goal would still have been reached because more people would spend time roleplaying.

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #182 on: November 08, 2015, 05:46:05 PM »
I see plenty of people sitting around chatting, so I don't think people are in that much of a hurry to clear every dungeon imaginable.
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Re: Level progression
« Reply #183 on: November 08, 2015, 06:06:13 PM »
Given Powergamer, who is motivated purely by XP/levelling.

Given Socializer, who is motivated purely by roleplay.

Reducing the XP for both activities affects *only* Powergamer's motivation. Socializer is unaffected.

If Powergamer was motivated purely by *adventuring* (liking to kill monsters, say) rather than XP/levelling, then the two would be equivalent, but as stipulated, they're not.

I agree that "people who want to gain xp and level over everything else" will find how to do that. Hence, capping adventuring XP pushes powergamers toward power roleplaying.

Actually, that won't have any impact. You may halve the gains or double them, in the end some will always be ahead of the curve. And people grind to be ahead of the curve. Of course, if you had no loot and no XP, then yes people wouldn't adventure but that wouldn't be DnD anymore.

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #184 on: November 08, 2015, 07:18:12 PM »
Actually, that won't have any impact. You may halve the gains or double them, in the end some will always be ahead of the curve. And people grind to be ahead of the curve. Of course, if you had no loot and no XP, then yes people wouldn't adventure but that wouldn't be DnD anymore.

I don't follow what you're saying here at all.

If a player is motivated exclusively by levelling fast and XP gain (which is how Powergamer was defined), then if one activity is capped and another is not, they have no choice when at cap but to go to the other activity. Or they will fall "behind the curve" of those who hit cap and do go to the other activity.

Assume two parallel roads. One allows travel at 100 mph, the other at only 30.

Three drivers: Power Driver likes to get to the next destination (Leveltown) as quickly as possible, Speedy likes to drive fast (and create roadkill).  Granny likes to take it easy and smell the Vistani Tears.

Speedy takes the 100 mph highway. Granny takes the 30.

Along comes the XP Cap Construction Company and puts up a temporary road block on the 100 mph highway. Power Driver has been whistling alongside of Speedy, but now both are stopped. Speedy sits behind the wheel steaming because the other road is for loser Grannies. Power Driver, though, doesn't care. He just wants to get to Leveltown. If he goes over to the other highway, he will continue moving and get ahead of Speedy.

That's what I understand the intent of the XP cap to be and why it doesn't apply to roleplay. Are the mechanics of it different then?
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Re: Level progression
« Reply #185 on: November 08, 2015, 07:33:52 PM »
Quote
If a player is motivated exclusively by levelling fast and XP gain (which is how Powergamer was defined), then if one activity is capped and another is not, they have no choice when at cap but to go to the other activity. Or they will fall "behind the curve" of those who hit cap and do go to the other activity.

Not quite. No matter how capped you are, you still gain XP. Do that enough, and you'll pass those who only RP. If we reduced XP over cap to the point where it was less than the equivalent amount of RP XP, we'd just be forcing one play-style on our playerbase. As it is, we incentivize RP but do not mandate it.
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Re: Level progression
« Reply #186 on: November 08, 2015, 08:06:36 PM »
Quote
If a player is motivated exclusively by levelling fast and XP gain (which is how Powergamer was defined), then if one activity is capped and another is not, they have no choice when at cap but to go to the other activity. Or they will fall "behind the curve" of those who hit cap and do go to the other activity.

Not quite. No matter how capped you are, you still gain XP. Do that enough, and you'll pass those who only RP. If we reduced XP over cap to the point where it was less than the equivalent amount of RP XP, we'd just be forcing one play-style on our playerbase. As it is, we incentivize RP but do not mandate it.

Yup! The Blackleaf clan is the perfect example of this. We were all a bunch of ECL +2/3 characters who were on blind drive from creation and we kept on going. We also had a ton of great RP, so who cares how fast or slow we leveled?
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Re: Level progression
« Reply #187 on: November 09, 2015, 05:15:09 AM »
I personally continue to maintain that a slower leveling pace would give less incentive for people to make choices based solely on how much XP they will be getting.

I'm inclined to disagree with you on that. I don't believe that any amount of throttling of the leveling pace will stop people who want to gain xp and level over everything else from finding the best way of doing so and capitalizing on it. It might slow them down, sure. But if that's what someone wants to do with their game time that's what they're gonna do with it ya know?

Similarly, if less rp xp was given, do you think the people that play purely for the rp of the game would rp any less? Or if it was harder to make gold the people who like to become absurdly wealthy wouldn't still find the best way to make gold and make as much as they could off it?

Well, you're right in that some people will always try to place XP before anything else. And in the end - that's okay, as long as they play by the rules.

However, there's a large grey ground between the extremes of "always puts XP before anything else" and "never thinks of XP at all". I'd claim that most players are roughly in the middle of those two extremes; Perhaps even slightly towards the "never thinks of XP at all" end of the spectrum.

All the game mechanical systems cater to this middle ground from the XP cap to Exhaustion to needing to eat to regain more health by resting. People bent on not RP'ing these things can never be forced to RP them, and people bent to RP'ing all the nuances of their characters would RP them anyway. But for the people in the middle of this spectrum of the two extremes, we give incentive to do things in a way which - at least so we hope - increases the immersion for everyone.

When I'm talking about giving less incentive to push XP before other things, I'm not talking about stopping the people bent on maximizing their XP-per-playing-hour. I'm talking about pushing the people in the middle of these two extremes to put other things before XP just slightly more often. I'm talking about giving a few people more the push to go and think "Wait, would my character actually do this, or am I just doing this for the XP of it?" and I'm talking about slightly prolonging the time spent in roughly the same levels for those who dungeon several times a day and those who do not.

In no way is there anything catastrophic in the current situation, nor would I want to make dungeoneering an unrewarding experience. I merely think that a slight adjustment to making the cap stronger at lower levels would be nice, without slowing down the current leveling pace of those who are already slightly behind the average pace.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 05:19:31 AM by Exordium »

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #188 on: November 09, 2015, 01:34:33 PM »
Exordium, Im fairly sure that the cap /has/ already been made stronger at lower levels. I cant say I care for it. Its a huge investment to get past lv 10. I say most of my vault stopped around lv 12 after a few months. In average, I could get to 9 in a few weeks, prior to this change, but the same estimate to get to 12 never changed.

Its different now at being capped in exp by 2-3 levels earlier now.

I dont know about you, but I find lv 7-9 somewhere in the best range, as your neither over powering the low levels when you are with them nor useless when you join a higher group. The rp can reflect that too. A middle ground.

just my opinion though.

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #189 on: November 09, 2015, 08:22:13 PM »
Quote
Exordium, Im fairly sure that the cap /has/ already been made stronger at lower levels. I cant say I care for it. Its a huge investment to get past lv 10. I say most of my vault stopped around lv 12 after a few months. In average, I could get to 9 in a few weeks, prior to this change, but the same estimate to get to 12 never changed.

I've asked Soren this morning and he confirmed he had made no changes to the XP progression nor the cap.

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #190 on: November 09, 2015, 09:03:19 PM »
This is just anecdotal of course, but this is the 3rd or 4th time I have participated in NCE and all of my pcs were between 5-7 at the end of the event. That dates back to the very first NCE, so if the cap has changed I have never noticed it at all.


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Re: Level progression
« Reply #191 on: November 10, 2015, 08:41:19 AM »
Again the only way you cap fast is 1 of 2 ways... A:.. your doing dungeons higher level then you are on a very high spawn very frequently, thus throwing you at the wall faster... and B: Going to DM events.. Since I believe DM exp is the same as Combat EXP. Might need a DM to clerifiy.. could be wrong on that.

and again. I've gotton some characters to level 6 NCE just fine.. Once you find a happy medium you level at a steady pace... Most people again are all.. Dungeon dungeon dungeon.. Event event event....RP....which pushes them to a wall So fast. but if you truly care for just dungeoning.. Hey no biggy I enjoy them as much as the next guy/gal.  My first character was probably on blind drive for most of her life just as the blackleaf.. But that's because RP wise she always pushed herself ot be stronger... I just ignored the Wall and when it came to me saying HEY slow down!... I just took out a sledge hammer and bashed that wall down!! Also.. If you want to RP with friends but your behind the curve.. WHo the fudge cares? GO RP with them.. if they are true friends IG they will probably keep you alive through the nightmare. and you can still RP with them. Just because the EXP wall is there suggesting to slow down.. does NOT... mean you have to listen to it.

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #192 on: November 10, 2015, 06:08:59 PM »
Going to DM events.. Since I believe DM exp is the same as Combat EXP. Might need a DM to clerifiy.. could be wrong on that.

I don't think DM xp count in reaching the cap, I say this because my NCE guard got lvl 4 with mostly DM xp since I didn't dungeon or anything with him and with the cap message it gives after resting it's as if I haven't done dungeon... but I might be wrong too since I got that DM xp on many different occasion and it was also during a period of two weeks so...  :P
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Re: Level progression
« Reply #193 on: November 10, 2015, 06:10:01 PM »
Going to DM events.. Since I believe DM exp is the same as Combat EXP. Might need a DM to clerifiy.. could be wrong on that.

I don't think DM xp count in reaching the cap, I say this because my NCE guard got lvl 4 with mostly DM xp since I didn't dungeon or anything with him and with the cap message it gives after resting it's as if I haven't done dungeon... but I might be wrong too since I got that DM xp on many different occasion and it was also during a period of two weeks so...  :P


DM XP counts towards the cap. You can get capped through DM XP (which was the case for my first PC who relied almost exclusively on DM XP to get to level 20).

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #194 on: November 10, 2015, 07:06:09 PM »
Going to DM events.. Since I believe DM exp is the same as Combat EXP. Might need a DM to clerifiy.. could be wrong on that.

I don't think DM xp count in reaching the cap, I say this because my NCE guard got lvl 4 with mostly DM xp since I didn't dungeon or anything with him and with the cap message it gives after resting it's as if I haven't done dungeon... but I might be wrong too since I got that DM xp on many different occasion and it was also during a period of two weeks so...  :P


DM XP counts towards the cap. You can get capped through DM XP (which was the case for my first PC who relied almost exclusively on DM XP to get to level 20).

We wouldn't be talking about the dreaded Marcus would we.. I think I got the name right.

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #195 on: November 10, 2015, 07:54:01 PM »
Going to DM events.. Since I believe DM exp is the same as Combat EXP. Might need a DM to clerifiy.. could be wrong on that.

I don't think DM xp count in reaching the cap, I say this because my NCE guard got lvl 4 with mostly DM xp since I didn't dungeon or anything with him and with the cap message it gives after resting it's as if I haven't done dungeon... but I might be wrong too since I got that DM xp on many different occasion and it was also during a period of two weeks so...  :P

DM XP counts towards the cap. You can get capped through DM XP (which was the case for my first PC who relied almost exclusively on DM XP to get to level 20).

Ah  :P I don't know why, but I had that feeling I was wrong, but wasn't sure  :)
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Re: Level progression
« Reply #196 on: November 10, 2015, 09:45:40 PM »
I wish there was an option for faster, to be honest.
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Re: Level progression
« Reply #197 on: November 11, 2015, 08:45:02 AM »
I wish there was an option for faster, to be honest.

I used to think the same when I first arrived here, I though the progression was too slow and wished it was faster, but after joining a faction and roleplaying more with other player my point of view changed. Leveling fast and quick and getting tones of XP became secondary.

I found out it was much more fun to RP then dungeon to farm XP. It took me about 5 month, but I raised a character all the way up to lvl 10.

All of this to say that once you'll find a group you really like and make a character and succeed to get his story move at a satisfying rate, you'll quickly forget about XP and you even won't feel the need to be high level at all. At least that's what happened to me and I enjoy this game much more than I did before now that I don't focus much on XP anymore. :)
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Re: Level progression
« Reply #198 on: November 11, 2015, 11:02:06 AM »
Can I ask a DM to level up one my charactes to level 20 just so I can say I have one  :P

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #199 on: November 11, 2015, 11:49:35 AM »
Yes.

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