Author Topic: Level progression  (Read 34558 times)

Zarathustra217

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Level progression
« on: January 05, 2015, 03:21:28 PM »
This came up in another topic, so to get an idea of what the general opinion is on this, I went ahead and made this poll. It's not meant to be a poll that will decide anything, but first of all to get an idea on how people stand on this.

The various revisions could appear as roughly following for approximate time to reach a level at normal to high activity:

Revision type__________________Level 6 ______ Level 11 _____ Level 16 _____ Level 20
Current1 week2 months9 months18 months
Slower for mainly low levels1 month5 months11 months20 months
Slower for mainly high levels1 week3 months13 months26 months
Slower for all1 month5 months18 months32 months

Comments are welcome!
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 03:26:41 PM by Zarathustra217 »

A normal snake

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2015, 03:25:48 PM »
I voted for making it harder for high levels. I think there's some balance issues regarding how much XP is handed out in Har'Akir.

Tycat

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2015, 03:26:50 PM »
For me I already level "slower for all", and have no idea how to speed things up. I don't understand how anyone can reach the levels they do in the time frames that they do it. I just don't.

FinalHeaven

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2015, 03:31:05 PM »
I don't really consider 10 high level so that's why I'm avoiding the "make it slower for high levels" option that I would likely normally choose.  I would not want to see things get slower around 10.

Zarathustra217

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2015, 03:31:14 PM »
Personally, I think I'm myself (not speaking on behalf of the team here) mostly leaning toward "Slower for mainly low levels", because getting level 6 in just one to two weeks makes you hardly experience those levels. And that you can be level 11 in two to three months means you very quickly go into the high level category.

 :twocents:
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 03:34:06 PM by Zarathustra217 »

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2015, 03:31:32 PM »
I voted for making it harder for high levels. I think there's some balance issues regarding how much XP is handed out in Har'Akir.

Should Har'Akir be fixed then, instead of just making everything else harder?
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Zarathustra217

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2015, 03:33:26 PM »
I don't really consider 10 high level so that's why I'm avoiding the "make it slower for high levels" option that I would likely normally choose.  I would not want to see things get slower around 10.

If you notice the diagram, the option "make it slower for high levels" only has a significantly impact on level 16 to 20.

I voted for making it harder for high levels. I think there's some balance issues regarding how much XP is handed out in Har'Akir.

Should Har'Akir be fixed then, instead of just making everything else harder?

Yeah, that would make the most sense.

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2015, 03:37:22 PM »
I really feel the sweet spot on PotM is levels 4 to about 9. That is where the most interesting stuff happens, assuming you manage to get attention and get involved in groups and plots. You're strong enough that you're not going to get wrecked by spawns, you're weak enough that anything thrown at you is a challenge, and your character is developed enough that they're not going to be terrified of everything that moves but they'll still have a healthy respect for the potentially scary things out there.
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Re: Level progression
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2015, 03:41:30 PM »
I voted slower accross the board. I don't know if I level faster or slower than normally, and really only have Rue to go by. I don't -think- I dungeoned as much as some people, but I know I saw far more DM attention on that PC and generally have a -lot- of free time to play.

While :
                   6               11            16               20
Current   1 week   2 months    9 months    18 months

May be the average, for me it only took about 7 months to get to 17 (Well, trivial to 17 but I stopped dungeoning for pretty much the entirety of her final month, had I have done trolls one more time, she would've been 17) . I've seen people hit level 20 rather quickly, and get from 16-20 in next to no time at all (I've seen the opposite too). With enchanting generally seen as a less desirable option now, I fear leveling will be all the quicker, since a lot of people dropped whole -levels- into enchanting (I did not) and still managed to get rather high rather quickly.  I know characters made roughly right before or right after I made Rue that are 19-20 now.

That said, Har'Akir gives ridiculous amounts of XP. I have issue with Har'Akir even being a thing on this server (I'm a stickler for sticking with Core realms, esp the ones bordering Barovia directly...imagining not needing the Mist Camp really at all :O!) but that's another topic entirely.

If anything, leveling from 10+ needs to slow down a lot a lot. But I think slower across the board would be great....And then I want a delevel for my character so I can enjoy it!

Other things I'm fine with:

Introducing a hard cap rather than a slow cap on leveling, to bring XP grinding to a complete halt.
Introducing a -hard- hard cap so that you physically cannot level after level 15 without a DM Approved application that shows your character has made a significant enough impact to -deserve- ascending to those levels, perhaps requiring a quest of high risk to do so.

Lowering the magic level of items and spells and consumables significantly so that balance is recreated.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 03:47:54 PM by Dalek Dreams »

FinalHeaven

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2015, 03:41:41 PM »


If you notice the diagram, the option "make it slower for high levels" only has a significantly impact on level 16 to 20.

Well, it certainly has the most significant impact, yes.  But I don't agree with a 10 month span to get from level 11 to 16 either.

Overall I just don't think that progression is an issue.  Some people are always going to progress faster than others, it's the nature of the game.  I just don't see why this should effect other people's gameplay except in very specific circumstances that can be addressed at the time of them happening.  

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2015, 03:55:10 PM »

If anything, leveling from 10+ needs to slow down a lot a lot. But I think slower across the board would be great....And then I want a delevel for my character so I can enjoy it!

Introducing a hard cap rather than a slow cap on leveling, to bring XP grinding to a complete halt.
Introducing a -hard- hard cap so that you physically cannot level after level 15 without a DM Approved application that shows your character has made a significant enough impact to -deserve- ascending to those levels, perhaps requiring a quest of high risk to do so.


I'd echo FinalHeaven's sentiment here-I don't see why other peoples progression should affect you at all, much less enough for you to want to change it so much.

I alternatively would like to propose the option to turn off all xp gain on -your own- character. This would allow anyone who personally wanted to slow down and take more time at the point they were at to do so without changing things for other people who might not want the same. It would I think create a middle ground that could (I think anyway) be fairly easily implemented among the options on the rest menu.

Also, yes-Rue leveled incredibly fast. Far faster than Dante who also leveled incredibly fast. It's what happens with people who have too much time on their hands and spend it doing this *shrugs*
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Re: Level progression
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2015, 04:01:44 PM »
I think the issue with low levels reaching high levels quickly is because dungeon grind crews cart low levels around through high level areas. I don't want to change low levels being allowed into high level areas, it can be good for master/apprentice RP, but it does skew how fast low levels gain XP. Xp gain slowdown only maxes out at 50%, and even with low level XP gain being cut in high level zones, it still increases the number of dungeons low levels have access to (and therefore, the amount of XP low levels are capable of getting from dungeons). Instead of just having terg, orphanage, etc etc, they now also have perf, HA, Sithicus (YES, I have seen low levels carted through Sithicus!). The script for the amount of xp low levels get in high level dungeons could be adjusted, as well as the xp reduction being increased to 75%

Overall though, I'm noticing people reaching max level extremely fast. I think the higher level zones could use some balancing in that regard. I know Har'Akir is notorious for being an XP piñata, but Hazlan has been ground steadily since it was buffed up too.

Upon consideration, I'm switching my vote to slower for everyone. I'd like to see 1-5 go relatively fast because those levels are not fun because you don't really have any fun skills yet that define the class you're playing, but after 5 I could see a slowdown being viable.

FinalHeaven

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2015, 04:08:30 PM »
The ability to turn off XP for your own character is a great compromise.  If you don't want to level fast that's your choice, but I still don't agree that everyone should have to conform.  This was an option on a server I played on a few years ago and it worked quite well.

The problem with having a hard cap at 15 and then having to do a bunch of things to progress beyond that is pretty obvious to me in that some people can't get any attention from a DM on a regular day.  This would just add another level on top of this, where more people are going to start to feel excluded or that the staff "never have time" for them.  That, and I'm not sure how this would work for every character that is already level 20.  Docking their levels is unfair, but so is expecting everyone else to have to go through a likely convoluted process, imo.

Honestly the one thing everyone seems to be agreeing on is that the high level areas need to be looked at.  I personally agree with this and would not mind seeing more of an actual challenge implemented to perhaps slow down the rate with with a high level character can gain xp.  I'm still voting for keeping it the same, though, simply because I'm not confident that I agree with any of the examples listed.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 04:11:36 PM by FinalHeaven »

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2015, 04:15:26 PM »
I'd like to see a hard cap at level 16 that prevents xp earned through killing creatures. Your options to level would then be roleplaying or DM xp.

Alternatively drop it by 75% so that high level dungeons still have some benefit.

I'd then be fine with the rates as is.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 04:18:02 PM by DM Nocturne »

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2015, 04:16:31 PM »
I'd like to see a hard cap at level 16 that prevents xp earned through killing creatures. Your options to level would then be roleplaying or DM xp.

This would be awesome but then you run into the difficulties of some people never getting DM attention, accusations of favoritism start to pop up, etc.
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FinalHeaven

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2015, 04:17:58 PM »
I'd like to see a hard cap at level 16 that prevents xp earned through killing creatures. Your options to level would then be roleplaying or DM xp.

This would be awesome but then you run into the difficulties of some people never getting DM attention, accusations of favoritism start to pop up, etc.
Exactly.

Though you've also just eliminated a core part of the game for some people as well.

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2015, 04:18:15 PM »
I have to ask since i don't recall seeing anything about it and i was asked before but... Once you hear that magical chime of you achiving your level.... So you have to take it or can you hold it till you feel your ready or does that mess with the system?

AS for the serious note. Unless you grind and I mean GRINDING out dungens... WHich i have done on really only one toon. yes it is easy to level quick. however you can level just as quick with a balance of RP and dungens. I believe Monica hit level 15 in.. just under a year of making her? and thats with a 4 month of not using her. Now this being said, when i did play her and she had those moments where she just Rped... and RPed...and RPed....AND Rped.... not hitting a single dungen she eventually slipped back into that exp boost time like three of four times so when she did go in a dungen finally she gaind exp quick.

So maybe could remove the exp boost for the higher levels and could make it so once they hit that wall EXP is recuded more then just 50%.

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2015, 04:18:36 PM »
I'd like to see a hard cap at level 16 that prevents xp earned through killing creatures. Your options to level would then be roleplaying or DM xp.

Alternatively drop it by 75% so that high level dungeons still have some benefit.

I'd then be fine with the rates as is.

This, and also what Ophis said about still seeing levels 3 4 and 5 go at current speeds. Those levels are awful and if you have 4HD for HP per level..Kill yourself.

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2015, 04:21:24 PM »
I leveled extremely slow on Laine. I'm not suggesting that everybody should level as slow or fast as I do, but I did vote for slowing everything down for everyone. Mostly because I hate high magic on any server, and slowing things down might at least take off some of the edge.

I would also be totally up for the higher levels being required to get their xp from either RP or DMs, but then there would need to be a system put in place where DMs would be required to "cycle through" characters to make sure that everyone got attention (which wouldn't be that horrible in my opinion).

Or even BETTER! A certain percentage of EVERY level must be gotten either through RP-xp or DM-xp. Anywhere from 5% to 25% (or scaling depending on your level).

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2015, 04:22:52 PM »
Making it slower will not accomplish anything except maybe loosing some of our playerbase. Do not allow the ones who powerlevel to dictate the fun of the ones who enjoy the game as it is.

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2015, 04:24:54 PM »
McNastea and Ophis both have some good ideas here. For those people who want to stay at level 6 indefinitely - perhaps giving them the option to do so is the best choice. I'd also agree - low levels in Sithicus?!?! Maybe it would be good to put a harder penalty in place if there is more than 8 levels between the highest and lowest character in the group or something of the sort?

I would really question slowing things down too much. Out of curiosity - how are these time frames calculated? Are we talking a player who has one character and plays multiple times/week? It seems like this would make things highly tedious for players with multiple characters or casual players. Taking over a year to get from 11 - 16 is a little extreme in my opinion and I imagine if you've got several characters or don't have 30+ hours a week to play, this would be even more extreme.

IMO, when we slow things down to the point where there is very very limited progression, a good chunk of people will lose interest. Out of curiosity - is there any information available as to the average 'lifespan' of active players on the server?

Also..... Thank you HellsPanda! : ) My thoughts exactly.


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Re: Level progression
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2015, 04:25:54 PM »
Making it slower for high levels is fine, but things are already plenty slow as it is. When I was a player, it took me several months to get a character to level 15, and by that time, the character's story is mostly over and I'm looking to retire them if they're not already dead.

Zarathustra217

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2015, 04:26:26 PM »
Making it slower will not accomplish anything except maybe loosing some of our playerbase. Do not allow the ones who powerlevel to dictate the fun of the ones who enjoy the game as it is.

I don't think it's relevant to discuss powerlevelling here, as it hardly matters with the cap. The numbers in the first post shouldn't differ that much from the experience of the casual player.

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2015, 04:29:40 PM »
I also want to vye sliightly off topic here. While I said before that I do agree with slower  , or even reduced level progression as Nocturne has stated, the other side of that is that DM activity would need to see a boost. Servers that I have seen with a generally longer period of time between levels, and that are aimed 'low magic' /slow progression generally have a very high rate of DM activity and interaction across the board. Conversely, it has never, in my 9 years of NWN experience failed that when one of these slow progressing servers lost DM activity for long periods of time, the server began to wither and die. I've seen more than a few servers that I would have considered perfect for their balance, and level progression die because there weren't any or enough DMs around consistently enough to support the laid out progression.

We can't let that happen here if we were going to change our style of progression :)

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2015, 04:30:11 PM »
Making it slower will not accomplish anything except maybe loosing some of our playerbase. Do not allow the ones who powerlevel to dictate the fun of the ones who enjoy the game as it is.

I don't think it's relevant to discuss powerlevelling here, as it hardly matters with the cap. The numbers in the first post shouldn't differ that much from the experience of the casual player.

People still powerlevel, Soren, they just make alts and level those while their other character has hit the cap. I'm not saying our systems don't mitigate powergaming and the effect it has on the rest of the server, but it still happens.