Author Topic: Level progression  (Read 34970 times)

Dhark

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #50 on: January 05, 2015, 06:50:15 PM »
(Also, if I could I'd rebuild the server with: Barovia > Borca> Forlorn/Kartakass>Sithicus>Hazlan> Darkon)

Barovia = Vampires , you dont want to start off killing such an iconic and supposedly tough monster, If you start in Borca, it has a bit of everything and lots of fancy clothes , politics ect so you dont need the levels to be in the swing. Hazlan is dangerous because its more alien and a bad place to be if your not a local esp wizards, also you can go to town with wizardly experiment outcasts

//shoves the thread back on the rails

eyeofpestilence

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #51 on: January 05, 2015, 07:23:13 PM »
Read the thread.

The issue isn't power leveling, it's bunnying lowbies with high lvl chars. Easy way to fix while allowing mentoring xp. Allow the RP xp for chars below 10 past mist camp but dungeon xp is zip.

I should also mention that making level progression slower will have the effect of making players will hold onto their characters for longer (and won't seek out the end to their character's story) and it will discourage them from making new characters. Things need to be made easier for new characters, not harder. We already have a pretty steep learning curve as is.

I'm definitely against slowing down low level xp gain. I feel that low levels should always be pretty easy to obtain, and if it's made harder all it will be doing is punishing casual players who already have difficulty obtaining levels. It would also likely increase the reluctance to closure higher level characters as the difficulty in starting new characters would seem excrutiating.

Overall I think our current rates are fine.

I like that it's pretty easy to reach level 10. Once you're level 10 you can generally contribute something positive to almost any party you join. Slowing the progression at lower levels would tend to segregate lower players longer from engaging with higher level characters.

The low levels are the bullied levels too, and I like that you can't bully someone for too long, because they'll soon be formidable enough to cause you to question your actions.


I agree with all these points 

Ditto!

I think it was Veng whom suggested (something to the effect of) lvl 16 plus being rp xp only or to decrease dungeon xp significantly for these levels. I think this is a great suggestion!

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Bad_Bud

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #52 on: January 05, 2015, 07:39:12 PM »
The XP already is decreased significantly for those levels.


armybrat69

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #53 on: January 05, 2015, 08:07:02 PM »
Due to my gaps in playing time since I joined the server my two main characters are high level but I cannot say in all actuality how long it took for each to hit their current levels. I voted keep the leveling system as it is however if there is consideration for xp slowing please target the high levels vs the low levels. I do like some of the ideas mentioned and would support

1. Lowering xp gain in Har Akr
2. Allowing players the option to stop gaining xp

At this rate I have not been active enough to even truly plan a possible end for any of my characters, if RP leads to it then so be it, let it come unexpected. As of right now one is more for the "healer" in some high level runs, and my other is a crafter, neither of which I see a need to hit max level. I would prefer to see more gain from roleplay xp over dungeoning, more balance between these. Honestly I would fear to see more people leaving due to needing an application to advance in level or to stop gaining xp unless given by a DM, let a character progression be more player driven, as it is now I think that part is in balance. If a player wants to level fast they know the areas, spawns to hit up, loot to find etc. If they do not want to they can play an alt toon or stick more to RP.
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eyeofpestilence

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #54 on: January 05, 2015, 09:41:47 PM »
The XP already is decreased significantly for those levels.


I don't know how the xp system works but if the decrease is off the larger sum from the higher xp reward based on challenge rating for the player it's still considerably favourable? If the high levels are being rewarded with Satisfieds and Prouds, yet the lowby tag along leaching xp is getting the same regardless of the xp decrease, it's obviously not enough of a decrease to deter it from occurring. Feedback from DM's is it's observed as not enough to deter it from occurring.

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Bad_Bud

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #55 on: January 05, 2015, 11:06:02 PM »
Read the first post. The experience gain scales such that... going from level 1 - 16 takes roughly the same amount of time as level 17 - 20. In theory at least.


Merry Munchkin

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2015, 12:00:13 AM »
Read the thread.

The issue isn't power leveling, it's bunnying lowbies with high lvl chars.




This is a problem on every server I have ever played on, and the solutions generally fall into 3 methodologies or combination of these methodologies:

1.  nerf the xp for everyone in a party if there is a level disparity greater than "X" between the lowest and highest.  the lowbie gets no benefit from latching on to high level characters.
2.  level-restricting dungeons -- you can't pass a transition if you are not in the correct level range.  This keeps lowbies out of high level areas, and vice versa.
3.  utilizing ILR on items, to prevent high level characters from spawning great loot for the lowbie to use

Clever players will generally figure out ways to circumvent restrictions, however, so none of these methods should be viewed as foolproof, even in combination.


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Meriana

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2015, 12:45:05 AM »
I find levelling pretty slow already myself, and while lowering the rate would no doubt hinder those great jump-aheaders, it would likely prove a bit dull to those who aren't able to schmorp up levels that quickly. There's always going to be some manner of extremes, with a few progressing very quickly and others much slower.

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2015, 01:37:04 AM »
I am glad i am not the only one who levels at a snail's pace. I really don't understand how people level so fast. i don't. And IDK i think it just wouldn't be fair for those of us who don't level fast at all.

Lucadia

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #59 on: January 06, 2015, 02:50:16 AM »
Ill point out being invovled in dm events will level you faster then any dungeon in Harakir will if you get into a story arc and can follow through.  Those that grind are just trying keep up with those that rp, where they feel comfortable at. Or just enjoy doing it.

I would be in favor of //increasing// exp gains for those that wished it, they will find their characters will burn out faster and there will be less attachment in losing them, knowing your time wasnt wasted (but this is in course subjective for each player in how they view time spent)

Ehver

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #60 on: January 06, 2015, 02:55:54 AM »
Ill point out being invovled in dm events will level you faster then any dungeon in Harakir will if you get into a story arc and can follow through.  Those that grind are just trying keep up with those that rp, where they feel comfortable at. Or just enjoy doing it.

I would be in favor of //increasing// exp gains for those that wished it, they will find their characters will burn out faster and there will be less attachment in losing them, knowing your time wasnt wasted (but this is in course subjective for each player in how they view time spent)

That's....... actually an interesting idea.

But I'm not sure it would work out well in practice, and gawshdarnit I hate high magic.
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Phantasia

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #61 on: January 06, 2015, 03:01:43 AM »
Actually that is similar to what Arelith does with a system called "Mark of Destiny" or something. It offers you more gradual experience at the cost of if you are corpsed 10 times (in PvP/PvE), your character is "perma-dead" (deleted from the vault).

I don't think something like that would work very well here, anyway.

As for the spirit of the thread... I don't really have much to say on this except that progression seems fine enough as it is to me. There's a fine line between gut-wrenching difficulty and an enjoyable challenge.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 03:06:34 AM by Sword »
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Lucadia

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #62 on: January 06, 2015, 03:03:37 AM »
You may hate high level magic, but you should not be discouraging players from attaining it , if that was their goal. You can react to it as how you see fit, allow them to have their fun, share in the narrative (or dont) but there should be room to bargain with all players about what they want, or dont want. Lately all the ideas have been remove this, lower this, nerf this.

Our roleplay manifest is the best code of conduct we have , and should probably reveiwed more often then offering all these changes of late. I would rather take a step back from stuff I dont like and allow others to have their fun, then take it  and chase parts of our player base away.

Ehver

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #63 on: January 06, 2015, 03:09:16 AM »
You may hate high level magic, but you should not be discouraging players from attaining it , if that was their goal. You can react to it as how you see fit, allow them to have their fun, share in the narrative (or dont) but there should be room to bargain with all players about what they want, or dont want. Lately all the ideas have been remove this, lower this, nerf this.

Our roleplay manifest is the best code of conduct we have , and should probably reveiwed more often then offering all these changes of late. I would rather take a step back from stuff I dont like and allow others to have their fun, then take it  and chase parts of our player base away.

That's good advice, and as I've said multiple times, I have taken the necessary and completely IC steps to removing myself from situations that I don't enjoy. But a lot of them are very in-your-face and unavoidable and completely ruin atmosphere for me personally (and perhaps others as well).

REGARDLESS this was all discussed on the other thread so we don't need to go into that here again, lest this thread get locked as well. ; )
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Re: Level progression
« Reply #64 on: January 06, 2015, 03:36:18 AM »
I've played servers where there was absolutely no restriction to XP gain, people figured out how to grind to max level very quickly and you'd end up with people who wouldn't start RPing until they were at the max level. I think having easy max levels only works on servers where there's a low max level. Low levels are really good for initial character development, with leveling being a good way to represent the character growing as a character.

With all of this said, I should clarify that I don't think this is a giant issue. While I've noticed certain behaviours, I don't think it's server breaking. I'm just commenting on my observations.

Lucadia

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #65 on: January 06, 2015, 03:42:06 AM »
I been also on servers that had no limitations to experience you could gain and cap out in a month or two. and I noted more role play that was conductive to the server setting was better, because the players felt comfortable at their levels and they chose story more over then going out and grinding. They behave, act as mentors, they give other players quests to do in their factions , tasks, rp opportunity while not using said level to bully anyone else around.

functor

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #66 on: January 06, 2015, 06:00:28 AM »
That escalated quickly.

Voted for the 'as it is' option; I don't think that the issue of immersion breaking can be solved by making leveling a time privilege.

Just two personal things. First, it is sometimes not just that you cannot play a lot every day, it is also that there may be time periods when you can't play at all. The fact that I was able to progress fast with my NCW character (I did level 6 in less than a week) makes me hope that when I come to play again (I can't now), I will continue with the character and not throw her in the trash can/make a new one/etc. Second, I would feel discouraged to play some characters which begin to show themselves fully only after a few levels are attained. 

Probably all that was mentioned anyway in this thread...

Ehver

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #67 on: January 06, 2015, 06:05:38 AM »
I think based on the poll alone (both on this thread and the other) it's safe to say that the vast majority of the server isn't interested in seeing a change. There is a vocal right that thinks there is a problem and a vocal left that thinks there isn't a problem... and in the end, it seems that the largest chunk of the player base is honestly quite happy with the experience as it stands. I might disagree, but if the majority doesn't stand on my side then there's nothing for me to do but either accept things as they are and make the best of it, or move on to something else.

I do believe the question asked at the start of this thread has been answered, and a number of other questions by proxy. : )
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de_reguer

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #68 on: January 06, 2015, 07:33:04 AM »
I'd like to see a hard cap at level 16 that prevents xp earned through killing creatures. Your options to level would then be roleplaying or DM xp.

Alternatively drop it by 75% so that high level dungeons still have some benefit.

I'd then be fine with the rates as is.

Thats fine but not all of us have interacted with DMs all that much. I think in 4 years Ive stumbled across or been involved in three or four DM run encounters. Except for one encounter in Hazlan about a year ago I've still got an entire story arc for this character I have failed to develop at all because I haven't managed to attract the attention of any of the DMs when their online, and have been hesitant about randomly posting something on the forums related to it. If I were a full time crafter rather than someone who wanders off alone out of boredom I suspect it would be even worse.

One thing that could be looked at is some DM stories that involve events for higher level characters. I cant count the number of times were hearing about some event off the shout channel while a half dozen to a dozen higher level characters are sitting in the Mist Camp trying to work up the energy to go hit Harakir, Hazlan, or Perfidus yet again. Sithicus is less of an option but it is also there. I would submit that high level grinding occurs as a byproduct of having less to do than at lower levels. Past level 13 or so There really arent that many places you can go. Also as for low level gaining levels so rapidly this is going to be inevitable when places like the Vallaki Morninglord Crypt is a viable place to dungeon all the way up to level 11 or so. If its at high spawn you literally don't need to do anything but park in the ML temple. Players start to wander because they get bored with it. Not because it isnt rewarding in a pinch. Similarly the Terg Ruins and the Alhoon Layer will reward good exp all the way up to 15th level or so if their at high spawn.

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #69 on: January 06, 2015, 11:16:51 AM »
For people who gain XP slowly and are concerned, I think the solution would be more along the lines of increasing the XP reduction for blind drive, that wouldn't effect you guys nearly as much.

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #70 on: January 06, 2015, 11:18:39 AM »
Voted for slower progression for high levels characters.

I think it would be conducive to a different attitude and approach to overcoming problems at higher levels and create a different atmosphere in terms of conflict between high levels players.
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Re: Level progression
« Reply #71 on: January 06, 2015, 11:30:21 AM »
For people who gain XP slowly and are concerned, I think the solution would be more along the lines of increasing the XP reduction for blind drive, that wouldn't effect you guys nearly as much.

That sounds like a better idea, I think. :)

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #72 on: January 06, 2015, 12:51:51 PM »
While it is a frightening and oft-unknowable thing, the infinitely available time that one is afforded in youth withers away when you're pulling 60 hours on a job weekly.

I've been to both sides of the spectrum -- the luxury and hilarity of free time and the non-existence of free time while working.

For the people in the latter category (no time), making it -harder- to level (which is something I enjoy) would just be a massive pain in my [our collective] ass[es].

Though I'm thoroughly entrenched in the roleplaying aspect of DND, I also very much appreciate the mechanical aspect and making an already unforgiving crawl more unforgiving is not something I'd look forward to.
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Re: Level progression
« Reply #73 on: January 06, 2015, 06:25:43 PM »
  This thread makes me laugh... mostly because I was going over Soren's estimates for level gains and my main character is only level 10 after 4 years of playing him. Granted, I hardly ever dungeon and so most of my XP comes from RP and the rare few DM events I've participated in, but it always amazed me how other characters can rocket past me in levels.  So I'm kinda on the knife's edge with this one... in a way, I want to say "yes, make it slower to level" but on the other hand, I want to say no because I'm already levelling slowly enough as it is.

  That being said, I do like the idea of players being able to self-impose XP caps to throttle their levelling... but at the same time, I don't see that being much use. As it is, players can easily cut down the speed they gain levels by avoiding repeatedly grinding dungeons or staying away from higher levels (though I will tell you, from my experience, the latter doesn't help you that much unless you're very low level).  I think the players who want to level fast will always find a way to do so regardless of what is done to slow them down, while the players who want to take their time can still easily do that now. So I'm gonna have to say things are fine the way they are now.

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #74 on: January 06, 2015, 06:39:12 PM »
For people who gain XP slowly and are concerned, I think the solution would be more along the lines of increasing the XP reduction for blind drive, that wouldn't effect you guys nearly as much.

I think this may appease most of the people on this thread, and the most different types of play styles honestly, because it's only effecting the people it's already meant to effect, just for a bit more. It's probably also one of the easiest changes to actually implement without it being too unbalanced to preexisting characters.