Author Topic: Level progression  (Read 34147 times)

Zarathustra217

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2015, 04:32:25 PM »
Making it slower will not accomplish anything except maybe loosing some of our playerbase. Do not allow the ones who powerlevel to dictate the fun of the ones who enjoy the game as it is.

I don't think it's relevant to discuss powerlevelling here, as it hardly matters with the cap. The numbers in the first post shouldn't differ that much from the experience of the casual player.

People still powerlevel, Soren, they just make alts and level those while their other character has hit the cap. I'm not saying it doesn't mitigate powergaming a bit, but it still happens.

Oh yeah, people powerlevel in that way, but it's just not relevant to the topic. The aim is not to target powerlevellers in particular.

emptyanima

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2015, 04:33:08 PM »
Making it slower will not accomplish anything except maybe loosing some of our playerbase. Do not allow the ones who powerlevel to dictate the fun of the ones who enjoy the game as it is.

I feel inclined to agree with this, myself. I'm not sure where all these 'remove and lower all the things' threads are coming from today. I don't have any 'high' level characters (my highest is 13, so she probably almost counts as high level), and I don't have a problem with high levels as an idea.

I echo several others when I say it's attitude, not level, that is important. I admit I can get a little negligent when I play Aveyna sometimes, perhaps take a route during the night because I am tired and it saves time, and there are other things she needs to get done, but there is less her level and more my need to manage my time that's affected the RP. I do try to minimise that.

I don't think it's a change to the levelling process that's needed, but just people reinforcing what they like to see more. I certainly think there are characters who have outlived their stories, but again, more to do with the character's attitude and situation and less about level. Not that I'd want to force perma on anyone, that would also be a bad route.

Apologies if I am not making much sense, my brain is slightly frazzled.

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2015, 04:33:57 PM »
I made Tarathiel in September and he is on the very edge of getting to level 14 now.  I leveled him much faster than my first character, but I would attribute this to understanding how the server worked better than I did when I made my first character.  The rate at which I played changed very little.  I noticed that around level 10 things very much slowed down in terms with which I gained xp and went to dungeons.  Around level 10 was when I first managed to get the first Blind Drive on him.  Though at the same time, it was around level 10/12 that he also made friends with some much more powerful people, and thus was able to go places who wouldn't normally go with a group his level.

Everyone is going to have a different story.  It doesn't really matter what the progression is like as there are too many factors that aren't built into the game itself that effect it and that's one of the reasons I'm against the change at all.  You should theoretically be able to play the game just fine the way you want, if you want to go slow.  Other people shouldn't have an effect on that.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 04:35:42 PM by FinalHeaven »

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2015, 04:34:30 PM »
But Casuals don't have the issue? They aren't rushing up in levels. Unless you think 6 levels in 2-3 weeks is to fast?

emptyanima

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2015, 04:37:22 PM »
But Casuals don't have the issue? They aren't rushing up in levels. Unless you think 6 levels in 2-3 weeks is to fast?

I will say this - I have always levelled faster during NCEs than at any other time. I think it's just an effect of the increased activity in lower-level areas. Leta-Basha just hit 7 before the end. Was the same with Gwenn the time before. Outside these events, unless you have a consistent party, I doubt you could do it that quick :P

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2015, 04:38:29 PM »
I should also mention that making level progression slower will have the effect of making players will hold onto their characters for longer (and won't seek out the end to their character's story) and it will discourage them from making new characters. Things need to be made easier for new characters, not harder. We already have a pretty steep learning curve as is.

emptyanima

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2015, 04:39:53 PM »
I should also mention that making level progression slower will have the effect of making players will hold onto their characters for longer (and won't seek out the end to their character's story) and it will discourage them from making new characters. Things need to be made easier for new characters, not harder. We already have a pretty steep learning curve as is.

Also agree with this! First five levels are tough.

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2015, 04:40:54 PM »
Making it slower will not accomplish anything except maybe loosing some of our playerbase. Do not allow the ones who powerlevel to dictate the fun of the ones who enjoy the game as it is.

I don't think it's relevant to discuss powerlevelling here, as it hardly matters with the cap. The numbers in the first post shouldn't differ that much from the experience of the casual player.

People still powerlevel, Soren, they just make alts and level those while their other character has hit the cap. I'm not saying it doesn't mitigate powergaming a bit, but it still happens.

Oh yeah, people powerlevel in that way, but it's just not relevant to the topic. The aim is not to target powerlevellers in particular.

I think powerleveling is a large part of the problem, though. It's very easy to go to the msit camp and tag along in a power leveling session. I was playerside somewhat recently and had a scene cut short because the people I was RPing with wanted to go tag along a Perfidus run rather than RP, the people were all around level 6 at the time. And I see this fairly regularly when I'm DMing, people tagging along endgame dungeon runs because it's easy XP. If powerleveling effected only those who did it, it wouldn't be an issue. BUT, as things are, it's leeching out and effecting other aspects of the server.

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2015, 04:41:33 PM »
I'm definitely against slowing down low level xp gain. I feel that low levels should always be pretty easy to obtain, and if it's made harder all it will be doing is punishing casual players who already have difficulty obtaining levels. It would also likely increase the reluctance to closure higher level characters as the difficulty in starting new characters would seem excrutiating.

Overall I think our current rates are fine.

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2015, 04:42:46 PM »
I definitely leveled Elias faster from 1 - 6 than either Marcus or Tarathiel, during NCE.  I know exactly what it was, too.  It was going into the crypts under the ML temple and soaking up XP with 20+ people.

Which I would rather die at the paws of a thousand clawing kittens then subject myself to again so that won't be a problem.

emptyanima

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2015, 04:44:09 PM »
I am also going to mention that this would make playing characters with ECL extra hard, harder than intended.

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2015, 04:48:07 PM »
But Casuals don't have the issue? They aren't rushing up in levels. Unless you think 6 levels in 2-3 weeks is to fast?

Well, that's my personal opinion, yeah. Not to make it "harder" but just to make the low levels last longer - because they are interesting.

I think powerleveling is a large part of the problem, though. It's very easy to go to the msit camp and tag along in a power leveling session. I was playerside somewhat recently and had a scene cut short because the people I was RPing with wanted to go tag along a Perfidus run rather than RP, the people were all around level 6 at the time. And I see this fairly regularly when I'm DMing, people tagging along endgame dungeon runs because it's easy XP. If powerleveling effected only those who did it, it wouldn't be an issue. BUT, as things are, it's leeching out and effecting other aspects of the server.

When I say powerlevelling isn't relevant, it's because this isn't intended as a change to stop those that tire themselves reaching high level (which they qua the soft cap can't do that much faster than the average player, anyway). The change wouldn't affect them any more or less than other people anyway.

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2015, 04:49:21 PM »
I like that it's pretty easy to reach level 10. Once you're level 10 you can generally contribute something positive to almost any party you join. Slowing the progression at lower levels would tend to segregate lower players longer from engaging with higher level characters.

The low levels are the bullied levels too, and I like that you can't bully someone for too long, because they'll soon be formidable enough to cause you to question your actions.


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Re: Level progression
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2015, 04:49:33 PM »
Making it slower will not accomplish anything except maybe loosing some of our playerbase. Do not allow the ones who powerlevel to dictate the fun of the ones who enjoy the game as it is.

I don't think it's relevant to discuss powerlevelling here, as it hardly matters with the cap. The numbers in the first post shouldn't differ that much from the experience of the casual player.

People still powerlevel, Soren, they just make alts and level those while their other character has hit the cap. I'm not saying it doesn't mitigate powergaming a bit, but it still happens.

Oh yeah, people powerlevel in that way, but it's just not relevant to the topic. The aim is not to target powerlevellers in particular.

I think powerleveling is a large part of the problem, though. It's very easy to go to the msit camp and tag along in a power leveling session. I was playerside somewhat recently and had a scene cut short because the people I was RPing with wanted to go tag along a Perfidus run rather than RP, the people were all around level 6 at the time. And I see this fairly regularly when I'm DMing, people tagging along endgame dungeon runs because it's easy XP. If powerleveling effected only those who did it, it wouldn't be an issue. BUT, as things are, it's leeching out and effecting other aspects of the server.


So here's the thing then. These domains are usually Dungeon domains. Har'Akir, Perfidus, Sithicus, Hazlan. I rarely if ever see people go there to RP. Har'Akir and Hazlan maybe....Back on track. When you pick these domains it's my understanding that the actual transition into the Caravan changes.
Add line in however you do nwn script: {if level <x bar entry}

Done....?

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2015, 04:53:49 PM »
I should also mention that making level progression slower will have the effect of making players will hold onto their characters for longer (and won't seek out the end to their character's story) and it will discourage them from making new characters. Things need to be made easier for new characters, not harder. We already have a pretty steep learning curve as is.

I'm definitely against slowing down low level xp gain. I feel that low levels should always be pretty easy to obtain, and if it's made harder all it will be doing is punishing casual players who already have difficulty obtaining levels. It would also likely increase the reluctance to closure higher level characters as the difficulty in starting new characters would seem excrutiating.

Overall I think our current rates are fine.

I like that it's pretty easy to reach level 10. Once you're level 10 you can generally contribute something positive to almost any party you join. Slowing the progression at lower levels would tend to segregate lower players longer from engaging with higher level characters.

The low levels are the bullied levels too, and I like that you can't bully someone for too long, because they'll soon be formidable enough to cause you to question your actions.


I agree with all these points  

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2015, 04:59:43 PM »
I should also mention that making level progression slower will have the effect of making players will hold onto their characters for longer (and won't seek out the end to their character's story) and it will discourage them from making new characters. Things need to be made easier for new characters, not harder. We already have a pretty steep learning curve as is.

I was thinking of this exact point earlier. The more tedious something is, the less likely you are to want to get rid of what you've achieved and replicate it again later. Case in point: I can finally make alchemical arrows after spending months learning 4 slow leveling crafts. It's going to be a cold day in hell before that character goes anywhere >_>

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2015, 05:03:11 PM »
I should also mention that making level progression slower will have the effect of making players will hold onto their characters for longer (and won't seek out the end to their character's story) and it will discourage them from making new characters. Things need to be made easier for new characters, not harder. We already have a pretty steep learning curve as is.

I'm definitely against slowing down low level xp gain. I feel that low levels should always be pretty easy to obtain, and if it's made harder all it will be doing is punishing casual players who already have difficulty obtaining levels. It would also likely increase the reluctance to closure higher level characters as the difficulty in starting new characters would seem excrutiating.

Overall I think our current rates are fine.

I like that it's pretty easy to reach level 10. Once you're level 10 you can generally contribute something positive to almost any party you join. Slowing the progression at lower levels would tend to segregate lower players longer from engaging with higher level characters.

The low levels are the bullied levels too, and I like that you can't bully someone for too long, because they'll soon be formidable enough to cause you to question your actions.


I agree with all these points  
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Re: Level progression
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2015, 05:17:36 PM »
Being a noob and playing characters that mostly are "anti social" type....mages and such. This is discouraging and will give new players that feeling of, Ok i have to play for two years to be able to stand against most of these factions. Some people love this game but have HUGE chunks of life to live and with that it will be close to impossible to level.
Just my rant.
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Re: Level progression
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2015, 05:26:49 PM »
I agree with all of this, good points for everyone!

Really though this seems to be largely just personal preference so why not just give people the ability to flip the switch on and off on their own xp gains

It's not like it would even present a problem for the soft cap system since if someone was on blind drive and turned xp off then went to dungeon they'd be gaining no xp as opposed to reduced xp, so the fact that killing things wouldn't keep them on blind drive longer would be inconsequential.

However, if this is still seen as a problem I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to make it so xp is not applied to your character while still affecting your current cap level, right?

I don't see why someone elses level or ability to level matters to anyone else
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Re: Level progression
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2015, 05:43:56 PM »
Gosh, as I figure it, my main character took over two years to hit level 16... Don't know why I'm so far behind the average.

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2015, 05:49:33 PM »
This is a real toughy .  One one hand, yes, the lower levels are great, the setting really has impact when a random night spawn can kill you with one crit.... On the other hand youve just created you character, you want to see some progression with that character, not wait two months of five hours a day to get that "essential" feat or spell that makes that build work how you invisioned.

Futher more the amount of content for these levels is huge, so slowing down the early levels and allowing people to experience it all is not a bad idea. {esp once the road to Zidenburg is finished)
In the end some will always powerlevel , some will always take it slow, no matter what you do there will always be disparity.

Now in my day [wags finger at the youngsters] we didn't have all these fancy dungeons, folk leveled slower at high levels and were content (I think it took me 2+ years to reach 20)

YES Har'akir needs a nerf bat taken to it.

I'll also add I agree with Dalek's pont about not needing the mist camp, I recall having a conversation long ago with a certain Panda about how, if given the oppertunity to start all over again the server would be best built from  Borca -> Barovia -> Hazlan, but thats besides the point.

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2015, 05:50:56 PM »
It seems to me like the same people who question why other people care about their leveling progression when it 'doesnt affect them' are the same ones that often times comment to me in other mediums about a lack of DM attention.

Here's a hint as to why other people care about your leveling progression: It is hard to challenge and frighten high level characters with anything short of a full psychological/mental attack which needs to be highly personalized and individual rather than something that can be tailored for a whole group.  They find it even harder to balance and properly scare a group of people when half of them are lower leveled hanging around said higher levels.  This is especially true when said higher levels seem to scoff at many things that a lower leveled party would find frightening.and why wouldn't they? They've fought demons and elder undead on the daily?

You can't have it both ways, and I'm only bringing this up as an answer to the "Why someone else's level and ability matters to anyone else" inquiry. (Also, if I could I'd rebuild the server with: Barovia > Borca> Forlorn/Kartakass>Sithicus>Hazlan> Darkon)
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 05:53:27 PM by Dalek Dreams »

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2015, 05:57:16 PM »
It seems to me like the same people who question why other people care about their leveling progression when it 'doesnt affect them' are the same ones that often times comment to me in other mediums about a lack of DM attention.

Here's a hint as to why other people care about your leveling progression: It is hard to challenge and frighten high level characters with anything short of a full psychological/mental attack which needs to be highly personalized and individual rather than something that can be tailored for a whole group.  They find it even harder to balance and properly scare a group of people when half of them are lower leveled hanging around said higher levels.  This is especially true when said higher levels seem to scoff at many things that a lower leveled party would find frightening.and why wouldn't they? They've fought demons and elder undead on the daily?

You can't have it both ways, and I'm only bringing this up as an answer to the "Why someone else's level and ability matters to anyone else" inquiry. (Also, if I could I'd rebuild the server with: Barovia > Borca> Forlorn/Kartakass>Sithicus>Hazlan> Darkon)
I would agree with this to some extent but I would also point out that this only answers why a DM would care about high level characters.  Not, say, what business it is of another player whom I may have never even interacted with before.

I also think that you can in fact make high level characters sweat, if they're willing to sweat.  Which comes back to the mentality discussion.

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Re: Level progression
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2015, 06:00:38 PM »
Ah, I've had quite a bit of DM attention lately on all my characters it's been great :) I agree it can be very hard for a DM to balance an encounter like that. It comes down to higher lvls having the presence of mind to not try and carry everything if the encounter isn't catering to their lvls but the lower ones as well as plenty of other things. Even when it's a party of nothing but higher lvl characters DM's can have a hard time making an encounter difficult without being impossible-but I think some recent changes have made this a little easier on them (though that's just speculation). Still, any attempt at it is always appreciated and I don't mind the encounters that are too hard to beat-intentional or not. There was a certain fight a while back in which myself and maybe 6 other high lvls were giving it seriously everything we had and were hardly scratching this thing-it was maybe one of the most fun fight ever. We didn't even beat it ourselves! Good stuff that.

My meaning is this, if you don't enjoy the way someone levels or plays or whatever it's very simple to stop playing with them. There's a large playerbase and avoiding people other than through what can be made brief happenstance encounters is very possible. So inventing ways to try to mold everyone to your preference instead doesn't seem like a necessary step, im my opinion.
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Re: Level progression
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2015, 06:25:57 PM »
I have played this server maybe half a year, maybe more. (Is there a way to know exactly?)
This server is fun because there are very dedicated role-players. But this is a game after all, and many people still find a great enjoyment in leveling up and seeing the progression of your character, not only in RP aspects.

I have played PoTM A LOT. A great deal too much really, to be considered normal :P

Anyhow, as a pure melee barbarian, it still took me more than half a year to reach level 14.. and as I said I've played more than what is healthy at times.
(And this is during my free time) I work from 7AM-16PM everyday, so It's not like I've spent all my time in PoTM ;)

Slowing down exp rate for me would make me consider quitting the server sadly, since I work very hard as is to get exp. And in my opinion it's good that you have to work hard for exp, but penalizing players too much because they enjoy killing monsters more than sitting in Vallaki doing RP for hours, doesn't seem fair.

We're all here to have fun. And some people are here for the RP, others for leveling. Some people enjoy both, like myself, I enjoy the RP aspects greatly (Even if I still suck at RP) but I also play this game because it's a game, and I enjoy leveling and killing monsters.

On another note, I don't think the server is 100% perfectly balanced because it isn't. But I do not think the problem lies in the exp rate..