Crafting experience

[ILLY6666]

I tried finding something about this topic, but did none.

I wonder if it would be possible to suggest actual experience for crafting.
Since we crafters basically spend in-game days on gathering and crafting.
Spending a lot of gold to actually learn the trade before it becomes useful.
While everyone else is out Rp'ing or dungeoneering.

Why not have a bonus similar to the RP exp bonus, but with crafting?

If you within one IG hours craft a certain number of times, you're bumped with it?

[Ehver]

On the surface this sounds like a good idea, but it probably wouldn't have the desired effect.

As it is now, crafting requires a lot of effort and investment, but the resulting benefits are pretty high. If you got actual character xp for crafting, the number of crafters would skyrocket - everyone would be doing a craft. You would no longer be able to make as much profit selling your goods as you normally could, and the unique roleplay that comes from being a crafter would also be diminished.

EDIT: Not to mention competition for materials would probably increase exponentially, making crafting potentially even more costly, time consuming, and difficult.

[IDreamofDaleks]

What about like 5-10 XP for discovering a new recipe? Just a small boost, really.
That way, it would really only matter at the early levels of crafting, which 9 times out of 10, you're doing at your early levels anyway, so it would balance out?

[ILLY6666]

On the surface this sounds like a good idea, but it probably wouldn't have the desired effect.

As it is now, crafting requires a lot of effort and investment, but the resulting benefits are pretty high. If you got actual character xp for crafting, the number of crafters would skyrocket - everyone would be doing a craft. You would no longer be able to make as much profit selling your goods as you normally could, and the unique roleplay that comes from being a crafter would also be diminished.

EDIT: Not to mention competition for materials would probably increase exponentially, making crafting potentially even more costly, time consuming, and difficult.

The bonus I speak about is small enough, that would likely turn away most people from really doing that.
And the resulting benefits you speak about apply mostly to alchemy and especially herbalism.

Other things like leathercrafting, woodworking and the like does not have those kinds of benefits.
They are ultimately just money-sinks and time-spenders. You won't get rich doing them.
Because the coin you spent learning the craft would likely never really weigh up to what you'd get.

It has to be balanced, I agree with that.

What about like 5-10 XP for discovering a new recipe? Just a small boost, really.
That way, it would really only matter at the early levels of crafting, which 9 times out of 10, you're doing at your early levels anyway, so it would balance out?

Something like this would be a good idea.
Perhaps a little higher boost though.
You don't really learn too many recipes.

[Ehver]

Personally, I'm against this idea. : ) But perhaps the staff have other plans.

[Bluebomber4evr]

We have separate XP for crafting for a reason.

[ILLY6666]

We have separate XP for crafting for a reason.

Could you please elaborate?

[Tycat]

If you want xp for it, get a helper. Get someone involved as a team to do your crafting and rp with them while you're doing it.

[de_reguer]

If you want xp for it, get a helper. Get someone involved as a team to do your crafting and rp with them while you're doing it.

I think that was the theory behind it. There were a few people that actually did it that way. Sudhri, Legos, Eugene, One or two others.

[ILLY6666]

If you want xp for it, get a helper. Get someone involved as a team to do your crafting and rp with them while you're doing it.

I do, usually. But I usually craft when nobody is around.
And I think that's a sentiment many share.

[Tycat]

I believe it's set up the way it is in order to encourage this. I personally hold on to my crafting materials until my teacher is around just for the apprenticeship rp. I know that's not always convenient, but it helps. I am pretty sure that's why the system is set up the way it is.

[McNastea]

I've crafted by myself and I've crafted with other people, both helping and getting helped. By far I prefer doing so with other people, to the point that I just don't do it alone anymore unless it's something that will just take me a second to do. So yeah, there's rp xp involved going that route, but I know it can be a pain to get others along with you for that sort of thing. The easiest way is to start a guild or hire people. The Black Lions/Dragons were a good example of that. Every crafter had a guard assigned to them. The guards were paid and stuck with the crafters while they went out for materials and crafted them. It' how I met some of the people that I still play with the most. So having it set up this way can really create an incentive to build rp around your craft, the effects of which can last long after you've stopped working on that craft or the guild has disbanded or whatever.

[respawnaholic]

I'm sure other people have a different take, but my advise is to stick to perishables. Potions, varnishes, and if your feeling really ambitious arrows. becoming a master level craftsman in something like smithing, leather working, and or carpentry is a black hole of time invested relative to gain either EXP wise or financially. To use worst case scenario a TEMPLATE for plate armor costs 1000 to 2000 gold and for the finest ones the DC is going to be in the low 50s. To get your skill that high you are going to spend a minimum of a year real time doing little besides carrying several hundred pounds of ore to a smelter and praying the random number generator for success doesn't do its normal bullshit of rolling 25% lower than what the theoretical success chance is. With things like herbalism, and alchemy they both level relatively fast and there is a constant steady demand for things like potions and varnishes, but each player is really only ever going to need one weapon and one suit of armor. You will never come remotely close to recouping your investment in time and materials with these things. Basically crafters ultimately do it because they like it. Don't expect to derive any advantages from it however.

I know the theory is that people will band together to form crafting parties, and I've even seen a few but basically if you give players the chance to go role play with you while your collecting some gargoyle pelts and mine ore all day for no treasure or EXP or run off to Harakir to farm trolls for an hour its no contest what their going to do. My oldest character is 6 years old (in real life) and he is a master level craftsman in Leather working, leather curing, leather boiling, herbal ism, alchemy, smelting, smithing, and high enough in carpentry to make strong alchemical steel tipped arrows and hes 15th only level. There are players who are half his age who passed him in level years ago basically because they don't waste all the time in crafts. Moreover say goodbye to ever being around for any DM events since your always going to be in the bottom aof a mine or carrying around several hundred pounds of crafting garbage you just spent the past few hours (again in really time) collecting to just safely drop.

Again. I'm sure others have a totally different take on this. I'm only telling you what my personal experience with it is.

[PsychedelicShroom]

On the surface this sounds like a good idea, but it probably wouldn't have the desired effect.

As it is now, crafting requires a lot of effort and investment, but the resulting benefits are pretty high. If you got actual character xp for crafting, the number of crafters would skyrocket - everyone would be doing a craft. You would no longer be able to make as much profit selling your goods as you normally could, and the unique roleplay that comes from being a crafter would also be diminished.

EDIT: Not to mention competition for materials would probably increase exponentially, making crafting potentially even more costly, time consuming, and difficult.

Nah, cos crafting is a pain in the ass...

[emptyanima]

I found the beginning of smithing easier, as I had a mentor, same with alchemy. A lot of the crafts aren't very intuitive, but it encourages you to get help. Aveyna would be nowhere as good now if she hadn't had teaching from Sudhri.

I still think we should get extra CXP if we have someone close by with a higher skill in the craft, or if not, a bonus to our craft rolls to reflect the expertise?

[Merry Munchkin]

I found the beginning of smithing easier, as I had a mentor, same with alchemy. A lot of the crafts aren't very intuitive, but it encourages you to get help. Aveyna would be nowhere as good now if she hadn't had teaching from Sudhri.

I still think we should get extra CXP if we have someone close by with a higher skill in the craft, or if not, a bonus to our craft rolls to reflect the expertise?

I can live without getting a bonus every time a mentor is present, but as an alternative, it might be nice to figure out some sort of mechanic where, if you have a mentor teaching you a recipe, you don't get the -5 for trying to learn a new recipe. This I think would more accurately reflect the benefit of having a teacher show you the new recipe, rather than you learning via trial and error.

[respawnaholic]

I found the beginning of smithing easier, as I had a mentor, same with alchemy. A lot of the crafts aren't very intuitive, but it encourages you to get help. Aveyna would be nowhere as good now if she hadn't had teaching from Sudhri.

I still think we should get extra CXP if we have someone close by with a higher skill in the craft, or if not, a bonus to our craft rolls to reflect the expertise?

I can live without getting a bonus every time a mentor is present, but as an alternative, it might be nice to figure out some sort of mechanic where, if you have a mentor teaching you a recipe, you don't get the -5 for trying to learn a new recipe. This I think would more accurately reflect the benefit of having a teacher show you the new recipe, rather than you learning via trial and error.

This actually isn't the tedious part. Your only ever going to suffer those -5s really early on, and while they can be disheartening they go away quickly. The worst is when your at middling levels and the finest suits or weapons are still several levels from even a roll of 20 being a success. No one is going to want a suit of iron plate made with warg pelts.  That's also the point where the things you need start becoming rarer and rarer. I think Stan is a 39th level leather worker and he still only has a 65-35% chance to succeed on something like Sturdy studded leather armor with ancient dire crocodile trim. That sounds like good odds until you realize that requires 4 sturdy boiled leather pelts (gargoyle or ancient dire bear- rar-ish for different reasons) That's master levels of leather curing, leather working, and leather boiling with DCs starting at 25 and then you need the pelts from the ancient dire crocodile which is extremely rare and relatively dangerous for a solo 15th level character to acquire then assuming all the curing, and boiling goes off without a hitch the actual armor has a DC of about 53 or 54. That isn't a misprint. You have a better chance of living thru an implosion spell as a 1st level halfling than you would making a suit of quality leather armor. I cannot begin to tell you the number of people who I've seen pick up a serious craft only to drop it when it dawned on them they were basically investing in a full time job.

[Ranjere]

Gonna be honest, I tried leatherworking for a while, but found it so (and this is not a dig, just an observation for/from me and my expenditure of time) outrageously tedious that I dropped it after a few levels and switched to smithing, which was actually immediately rewarding in comparison, despite still being multi-step.

[Bluebomber4evr]

We have separate XP for crafting for a reason.

Could you please elaborate?

Using/tying it to your regular XP would make it level-based, and then only high-level characters who grind all the time would be able to craft the good stuff. The way we have it now, your crafting skills have nothing to do with how much you grind/level, meaning that even a low-level character could, given the time and materials (presumably provided by another player) craft the best stuff, independent of their character level.

[IDreamofDaleks]

I don't think the OP wanted them tied together. I think what the Original Poster was suggesting was that Crafting grant Crafting XP, which gives Crafting levels, but also grants a small amount of normal XP, because , according to their argument/point/what have you, crafting is usually done alone by many people, and therefore gaining RP XP is barred during these times, as one is not actively engaging with others.


Though when I put it that way, I'm suddenly against the idea.

[respawnaholic]

We have separate XP for crafting for a reason.

Could you please elaborate?

Using/tying it to your regular XP would make it level-based, and then only high-level characters who grind all the time would be able to craft the good stuff. The way we have it now, your crafting skills have nothing to do with how much you grind/level, meaning that even a low-level character could, given the time and materials (presumably provided by another player) craft the best stuff, independent of their character level.

True, but what you have is the exact flip side of the equation. People heavily invested in crating really aren't going to level all that fast. They will, in fact, be leveling far more slowly than their contemporaries who focus exclusively on gold and EXP. Actually the more I think about it the original poster does have a valid point. A case could be made that a character should get a slight exp bump every time they gain a crafting level that way the experience is tied to crafting and not power leveling in Harakir. Crafting IS a form of role playing, and as it currently stands arguably the purist form since your engaging in a very time and materials consuming endeavor with little to no reward in gold or expericence for the character.

[Bluebomber4evr]

You can get plenty of regular XP from gathering resources, that's why they're in dungeons/wilderness or on monsters.

[respawnaholic]

You can get plenty of regular XP from gathering resources, that's why they're in dungeons/wilderness or on monsters.

Which is how I made it to 15th level with my master crafter after 6 years to begin with. But you also aren't going to level a craft in one, or two, (or three, or four, or whatever) trips. It takes (real) time to mine ore in a place where you gain little to no exp and walk at a snails pace to a smelting station two maps away to then spend another hour doing literally nothing but smelting and smithing. In the mean time a dedicated exp farming party that is bored to tears with your crafting antics after the first trip can reap more exp in a single dungeon trip than you will in a month of incidental conflicts while gathering materials. When you get into things like leather working it gets even worse. What you need alot of are things like gargoyle pelts. (sturdy boiled leather) Please show me anyone beyond level 5 interested in going to get them for the exp benefit.

[ILLY6666]

I don't think the OP wanted them tied together. I think what the Original Poster was suggesting was that Crafting grant Crafting XP, which gives Crafting levels, but also grants a small amount of normal XP, because , according to their argument/point/what have you, crafting is usually done alone by many people, and therefore gaining RP XP is barred during these times, as one is not actively engaging with others.


Though when I put it that way, I'm suddenly against the idea.

That's what I meant yes.

I try to be with others when I craft, but it's not always possible.
Hence it would have been nice with that small boost of 'actual' EXP.

[MAB77]

I really do not see the need for regular XP when crafting. Granted my opinion is biased since I never give a damn about XP or level, but when I craft I produce goods which can help me or others. Products I can sell at whatever prices I wish to cover my production costs and time. I get a material reward for this which seems more than adequate for me and often it evolves to RP reward anyway just negotiating with an eventual buyer or with resources providers (as Blue said already).

However, there is room for improvement. I do believe there should be NPCs available to buy whatever goods we produce that no one else want. Not to get rich, but at least to cover some of our production cost. Fictional exemple: If a copper armor costs in total 250 gp to produce, I should be able to sell it for 260 gp to an NPC. Heck, I'd be happy to get 200 gp for it. I would not get rich and would still lose money when I fail to produce anything. But that would be a huge improvement over what it is now. It would not have to be for everything either, we can all agree potions and varnishes are useful from the very beginning, but at least for items of lesser worth no one usually wants. I especially have in mind items like copper/bronze/iron weapons & armors, leather armors and wooden shields giving little or no bonus at all.

Another word to my fellow players: Support your fellow crafters! Especially those selling lower tier items. They are those whom struggle for gold. I bought a regular chitin large shield today. I was not needing it, but I wanted to reward the player ingame. I would very much like to see more players doing the same. It is a great satisfaction for a player to manage to sell some of its wares.