Loot vs Enchanting -- a balance question

[APorg]

The new changes to the enchanting system has given me pause to raise a question.

Should the enchanting system represent the best gear in the game, or should it be merely one niche amongst many?

The fact that enchanted boots will now give +2 dodge AC will now make them better than equivalent loot boots -- Lotus Greaves.

Up until now, there has at least been an element of choice. Lotus Greaves gave +2 AC but otherwise had no other positives (though they do weigh only 0.5). Enchanted boots gave absurd saves, and potentially Skill bonuses if plated, but only +1 AC. So at least there existed a trade off decision.

Now, there isn't really much of a decision; if you can afford the enchanted boots, you should get them. The value of Lotus Greaves has seriously diminished.

This is compounded by the problem that it's actually easier to get enchanted gear than some looted gear: Lotus Greaves mostly spawn in high level dungeons like Perfidus, whereas characters of level 14 can do enchanting. Thus, we're now in a situation where a character finding Lotus Greaves will usually consider them to be obsolete noob loot.

Taking this question and applying it more broadly, it is odd if enchanted loot outshines even specialised high-level loot; it seriously diminshes the value of such.

If the intent is to make enchanted gear more powerful than loot, I think it would be wise to also raise the level cap at which someone can become an XP "battery" for enchanting, from 14 to 16. I believe this will give looted gear more life, and restrict most enchanted gear explicitly to high levels. After all, level 14 isn't really "high level"; it's merely higher mid level.

[Tycat]

I would like to see enchanted gear be an ordeal to obtain. I like the idea that you have to find one of few (?) enchanters, and if anyone has ever had me do their enchanting, you know I like to make a song and dance out of it. I would like it to be less available to lower levels only because it reminds me of kids with cell phones.

[A normal snake]

Maybe dungeons are rewarding too much XP if people are losing levels without a second thought. 

[Bluebomber4evr]

The enchantment system was always meant to provide better items than can be found in loot. Ex: enchanted weapons can get up to +5, whereas loot is usually capped at +3.

[APorg]

The enchantment system was always meant to provide better items than can be found in loot. Ex: enchanted weapons can get up to +5, whereas loot is usually capped at +3.

Is this part of the re-design? Up until now the maximum has been +2 for melee and +3 for ranged weapons.

[APorg]

Maybe dungeons are rewarding too much XP if people are losing levels without a second thought. 

Well that's not really the issue, it's merely a consequence of the set-up.

Given that it's harder to level up the higher level you are, it directly follows that it's usually easier to regain level 14 than level 20 (the latter especially because level 20s are stuck at max XP cap).

So people who grind XP for enchanted gear are incentivised by the system to grind at level 13. This strikes me as being too low level if we're going to be making the enchantment system more kick ass. Therefore that's why I think we should raise the level cap.

Or change the enchantment system so that the power of the enchanted gear is dependent on the level of the PC donating XP; but that's a more fundamental redesign of the system.

[Kendric98]

The enchantment system was always meant to provide better items than can be found in loot. Ex: enchanted weapons can get up to +5, whereas loot is usually capped at +3.

Is this part of the re-design? Up until now the maximum has been +2 for melee and +3 for ranged weapons.

Is this possible now?

[FinalHeaven]

I was always under the assumption enchanted gear was meant to be the best as well.  I'm not really sure I see the need to change it to 16 either.  At the end of the day people are still going to get the gear if they can afford it.

[APorg]

I was always under the assumption enchanted gear was meant to be the best as well.  I'm not really sure I see the need to change it to 16 either.  At the end of the day people are still going to get the gear if they can afford it.

Well the point is, at what level are characters going to be decked out in all-enchanted gear? Should they be decked out at level 13? 15? 17?

It's not easy to trade enchanted gear. XP is a more valuable commodity than gold. So the case where high levels are going to trade enchanted gear down to lower levels is a rare exception. In the majority of the cases, I am confident that the XP for the item comes from its future owner.

So, for example, in the current set-up (as I understand it), my Barbarian will get his best armour at level 13; he'll get his best boots at level 13; he'll get his best weapon and shield at level 13; he'll get his best helm at level 13. Apart from a few slots that can't be enchanted (e.g. rings, amulet), all his best gear will be gotten through enchanting. He'll be level 13 a long time, but by gods, by the time he's done he'll be better blinged out than most old level 20s are!

At least if you raise the cap to level 16, people will be blinged out at 15, which is at least mroe reasonably "high level".

[Bluebomber4evr]

No, sorry, I don't know where I got +5 from. I think I was remembering early discussions or thinking of varnishes.

You still make more powerful items by enchanting than you do from the loot tables, though, and that's the intent of the system.

[APorg]

You still make more powerful items by enchanting than you do from the loot tables, though, and that's the intent of the system.

Okay, thanks for clarifying that, but is it still okay that a PC will be getting their best gear at level 13?

[Kendric98]

No, sorry, I don't know where I got +5 from. I think I was remembering early discussions or thinking of varnishes.

You still make more powerful items by enchanting than you do from the loot tables, though, and that's the intent of the system.

Awww hope dashed.

[de_reguer]

Maybe dungeons are rewarding too much XP if people are losing levels without a second thought. 

Its called Harakir.

[Bluebomber4evr]

You still make more powerful items by enchanting than you do from the loot tables, though, and that's the intent of the system.

Okay, thanks for clarifying that, but is it still okay that a PC will be getting their best gear at level 13?

Yes because at that point, XP is harder to replace because of the XP caps. Around 13-14 is when it starts to take a lot longer to progress.

[APorg]

Yes because at that point, XP is harder to replace because of the XP caps. Around 13-14 is when it starts to take a lot longer to progress.

Not that much slower...

[McNastea]

Why is it a problem if someone chooses to keep losing their lvl to 13 over and over to enchant their stuff with their own xp? That doesn't mean that you -will- get your best items at lvl 13, only that you can if you wish to sacrifice you xp that you'd sacrifice at higher lvls to get the same stuff anyway. If that's the route you choose to take then you only detract from yourself not gaining anything else better for the rest of your progression, but it doesn't affect anyone else.

And you may be looking at this through your own extensive experience, I think most people who don't know every in and out of the server do in fact have a hard time lvling from 13-14+

[Syl]

Well its not really hard and its really easy. Monica made all her items Armor, Bow, Boots, All enchanted without loosing exp.. I think it took me like.... 1 to 1 and a half months to get it all made. I was level 14 for a LONG time.... Am I saying its right to grind the exp JUST for the enchanted items. No. does it happen. Yes. If your toon loves to adventure and go out, its hard for them to say no to a dungen at times....

How ever you can find many items that are equivalent or can beat.... on rare occasions. enchanted gear. Ive seen weapons with +3 enhacment.. while it doesn't do the fancy positive or extra damage.. Its a +3 where as the weapons is a +2... though I'm also not sure on a un related topic of enchanted weapons. The meele ones seem to be a bit bugged. I've sat there hitting mummies with the +2 weapon and I always had a fair amount of my physical damage reduced via dr and absorbtion... how ever when a cleric that gives me GMW that's only a +2... It did more damage because the absourbed amount lowered... [shrugs]

[APorg]

In my opinion it becomes a problem when enchanted gear will outshine the majority of gear in the 14-20 range (and that's a BIG range), so that most people who go dungeoning will, for the most part, find loot equivalent to their level to be worthless.

[Kendric98]

In my opinion it becomes a problem when enchanted gear will outshine the majority of gear in the 14-20 range (and that's a BIG range), so that most people who go dungeoning will, for the most part, find loot equivalent to their level to be worthless.

By level 13-15 all other loot is  worthless for the most part anyways but at least with enchanting you have something to strive for. All of the high level loot can be purchased by 13th level.

[poisonivy2]

I understand Approgressivist point... some itens were known as "epic", extremely powerful and rare to find... So rare that people wouldnt even take gold for it, only other rare itens (this if you have the luck to find someone that wont simply OOCly keep it to his buddies).

In a year playing here I saw only two Lotus Greaves and none of them were for sale. I saw a third one in auction, but I guess I dont need to comment about how high/absurd were the bids...

At some point, I finally decided that those were the boots for my char and I started to gather gold/good itens, and order it to high lvls, offering A LOT of gold/other stuff for them. I had to wait for a real life month to finally get them, dropped by a -very- high lvl character in a area where my character will have to wait a long time before having a chance to go by himself. (buuuuut -> very soon I will be enchaning itens)

Since the player obviously didnt wanted money, I exchanged my current enchanted boots for the Lotus Greaves... 2 weeks ago =/

My character is a warrior, he needs AC, not saves... besides, enchanted boots were NEVER so hard to get, anyone with a fair but not absurd ammount of gold can order some and have them done very quickly, I could get another in the future, was a very good trade... very good, until now...

Now I feel that any lvl 14 can enchant his own boots and make something better than the boots I heard about for a whole year and when finally decided/could afford to buy, I had to look for them for over a month and spend a lot of effort/rp ICly. Now after all the hard work I will simply sell mine, for much less than I paid, and get enchanted boots just like the ones I used to wear... the item was "killed"

Well... "easy" come, "easy" go *shrugs*

In time: There are a FEW boots that would make a Rogue give up on enchanted ones without blinking. The Lotus greaves were the option for fighters, now they were "outshined" and the ONLY option are enchanted ones.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

The story you tell very much describe why we want the most superior gear to be crafted and tied to XP. Having some few very rare items being the pinnacle of what you can acquire only encourages (and rewards) repeated farming, even creating a sort of lottery effect. Tying it to XP and crafting rather makes it rely on collaboration and the steady activity over time here, without anyone having to rush from place to place in hope of "hitting the right number".

In other words, crafting enchanting is intended as providing the general purpose gear, with loot being more like temporary improvements, special purpose items or simply curiosities.

[poisonivy2]

[DM Cataclysm]

The story you tell very much describe why we want the most superior gear to be crafted and tied to XP. Having some few very rare items being the pinnacle of what you can acquire only encourages (and rewards) repeated farming, even creating a sort of lottery effect. Tying it to XP and crafting rather makes it rely on collaboration and the steady activity over time here, without anyone having to rush from place to place in hope of "hitting the right number".

In other words, crafting enchanting is intended as providing the general purpose gear, with loot being more like temporary improvements, special purpose items or simply curiosities.

I agree that this is a good option for the way that enchanting is currently set up. It gives players who don't have access to an abundance of items and gold a means to appropriately arm themselves without having to try to come up with1,000,000 to spend at an auction on an item. I think people are also forgetting the difficulty of having enchanted items created. Getting all of the components for an enchanted item can be very difficult and time consuming.

Cael created a set of Ancient Dire Crocodile Steel Full Plate. Despite the fact that he can travel quickly and had no difficulty with the creatures around those areas (not to mention that he is very well connected) - this took over a RL month to complete. Finding that kind of crocodile is nearly impossible, as is finding someone with the appropriate hide curing skill. Then onto mining iron and coal - finding someone who can smelt and smith well enough to make steel isn't too bad....... but the DC for the armor is massive. Then you have to get the components for a radiant essence and an alchemist high enough to deal with it if you want to enchant - and you really need multiple since most enchanters aren't going to be experienced enough to do that without fail.

Obviously there are items that are easier to create than that, but we don't have an abundance of crafters on the server right now - which can make things complicated. Also, lower level characters and specifically non-magical ones are going to have a way more difficult time with this. A lot of items have you traveling all over the server for resources (which I think is kind of awesome and really makes it feel like you've accomplished something worthwhile when you're finished) - which is time consuming for those that don't have a movement increasing spell or a barrel of potions.

Lastly, (why are my posts always so long??? ) I don't think loot is worthless now. While Lotus Greaves are a specific item that has been outshined, the crafting system is very linear in what you can create. There are a lot of weapons with elemental damage/vampiric regeneration/daze/AC Bonus and other magical properties that enchanting can't make. You're also lacking the ability to enchant any kind of physical DR item, any belts/gloves/cloaks, or anything that gives bonus spellslots. Loot definitely still has a large place - but I think it is nice that there is another option for people who don't want to visit a dungeon 100 times to find whatever 1% drop item they want.

[Syl]

I agree that this is a good option for the way that enchanting is currently set up. It gives players who don't have access to an abundance of items and gold a means to appropriately arm themselves without having to try to come up with1,000,000 to spend at an auction on an item. I think people are also forgetting the difficulty of having enchanted items created. Getting all of the components for an enchanted item can be very difficult and time consuming.

Cael created a set of Ancient Dire Crocodile Steel Full Plate. Despite the fact that he can travel quickly and had no difficulty with the creatures around those areas (not to mention that he is very well connected) - this took over a RL month to complete. Finding that kind of crocodile is nearly impossible, as is finding someone with the appropriate hide curing skill. Then onto mining iron and coal - finding someone who can smelt and smith well enough to make steel isn't too bad....... but the DC for the armor is massive. Then you have to get the components for a radiant essence and an alchemist high enough to deal with it if you want to enchant - and you really need multiple since most enchanters aren't going to be experienced enough to do that without fail.

Obviously there are items that are easier to create than that, but we don't have an abundance of crafters on the server right now - which can make things complicated. Also, lower level characters and specifically non-magical ones are going to have a way more difficult time with this. A lot of items have you traveling all over the server for resources (which I think is kind of awesome and really makes it feel like you've accomplished something worthwhile when you're finished) - which is time consuming for those that don't have a movement increasing spell or a barrel of potions.

Lastly, (why are my posts always so long??? ) I don't think loot is worthless now. While Lotus Greaves are a specific item that has been outshined, the crafting system is very linear in what you can create. There are a lot of weapons with elemental damage/vampiric regeneration/daze/AC Bonus and other magical properties that enchanting can't make. You're also lacking the ability to enchant any kind of physical DR item, any belts/gloves/cloaks, or anything that gives bonus spellslots. Loot definitely still has a large place - but I think it is nice that there is another option for people who don't want to visit a dungeon 100 times to find whatever 1% drop item they want.

This is true. Lotus greaves is only one of the very few i can think of that became out shined... How ever for rogues we have... what are they the weery treads? +1 ac +5 ms... Most rogues would give up that 1 little ac for that 1 point of MS. And as mentioned none of the enchantied items give DR unless its gargoyle or aicnent croc armor which is only acid resist and cold resist.. nor do any of the enchanted stuff give spell slots. or any of the other things Mika mentioned above.

Other then a few items, if you think the AC is more importent for your toon then a spell slot if you primarly cast spells is more importent.. By all means. go get that enchanted gear... I'll sit there with 8 call lightnings and blow things up.

And besides.. I'm sure there is much more loot out there that no one has seen yet because it hasn't dropped.

[FinalHeaven]

The story you tell very much describe why we want the most superior gear to be crafted and tied to XP. Having some few very rare items being the pinnacle of what you can acquire only encourages (and rewards) repeated farming, even creating a sort of lottery effect. Tying it to XP and crafting rather makes it rely on collaboration and the steady activity over time here, without anyone having to rush from place to place in hope of "hitting the right number".

In other words, crafting enchanting is intended as providing the general purpose gear, with loot being more like temporary improvements, special purpose items or simply curiosities.

I like this explanation and I think that level 14 is still a good starting point.  I may just have exceptionally bad luck but since level 10 I've only found a handful of items I actually want in loot, that I would consider keeping for several levels.  That hasn't really changed now that I've level 14, and I do go to most of the high level dungeons.  The difference is now I know I can reward myself with an enchanted item if I want, something I'll actually find value in.

I think perhaps a better thing to look into is the frequency with which "good" loot drops around the level 10 - 15 range.  It might provide a longer period that characters have to make use of some of this loot, rather than immediately jumping on the enchanting train.  Again though, I may just have exceptionally bad luck