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Author Topic: Incoming balance change: Parry AC bonus capping at +5  (Read 18226 times)

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Re: Incoming balance change: Parry AC bonus capping at +5
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2014, 04:36:19 PM »
Warded at level 19 Dante gets +8 from parry with a parry item or two in use as well. At 20 that would have been +8 without the items in use and +9 with.

Anyway the wording of this makes it sound like it's just being tested at the moment. Is there any idea how long this will be tried out before being ruled on officially-and as someone else has asked, would rebuilds be allowed? This leaves me with quite a few skill points and two feats that would be wasted if these changes are implemented permanently

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Re: Incoming balance change: Parry AC bonus capping at +5
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2014, 06:31:28 PM »
Having devised the system, it's of course hard to not be subjective about this, but I dare say that the parry system we implemented has been a great success and truly increased the diversity in the characters you see.

All in all, very are satisfied with how the system works now, but we've noticed that at very high levels and using certain combinations, it's possible to use the system to gain exceptionally high ACs to the point where we feel it's unbalanced. As such, by next update, we've tried with a cap of +5 on the maximum bonus the system gives.

I hope you'll help experiment with this change with an open mind, but please use this topic to share your experiences.

I would suggest one slight change.  If someone were to have  a lvl 20 DEX build (most parry characters would potentially be DEX builds), by putting in the full complement of skill points (23), having a maximum non-buffed DEX (for elves and halfings) of 27 (giving a +8), and potentially taking improved parry (+4) and skill focus (+3), a character's parry skill without any augmentation via spells, gear, or effects would be 38.  This strikes me as the correct "balance point" for the AC buff, which would be a +7 to your AC (with a few points to spare in case of any skill-lowering magic or armor penalties).  This means that (1) a character can get this AC bonus solely via their build, (2) any character that has already invested in these skill points and feats won't be harmed in any way by imposing this new cap, and (3) additional spells and gear won't make a difference.  This also makes it so that there is still at least some incentive to continue putting points into the skill if you wish, because then you can devote your gear to other things.  I just don't think it is a good practice to set things up so that players have no incentive to utilize skill points beyond a certain point.  I personally think a cap should be benchmarked as the best a character could get when totally naked and with no magic.

And in the interests of full disclosure, I have no characters that are anywhere close to 20th level or have a parry skill so high that they currently exceed a +5 to their AC, so they are not effected by this experiment at all.


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Bad_Bud

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Re: Incoming balance change: Parry AC bonus capping at +5
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2014, 06:51:50 PM »
It is +5 because 25 parry with improved two weapon defense yields +7 AC, which is equivalent to the AC bonus of a +4 tower shield*. It seems like the most direct way to keep one style from being obsolete to the other, and to prevent the massive parry bonuses provided by elemental shape forms and some shapechange forms.

*There is a high probability that Greater Magic Weapon / Magic Vestment will be capped at +4 in the future, that is why +4 is the reference point.

I would wait on requesting rebuilds until sometime next year, during a hak update, when many things will be added.

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Re: Incoming balance change: Parry AC bonus capping at +5
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2014, 06:56:37 PM »
next year, during a hak update, when many things will be added.

Such as MOAR druid shapeshifting forms? Rangers and Bards getting 6 skill points per level?

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Re: Incoming balance change: Parry AC bonus capping at +5
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2014, 06:59:12 PM »
Perhaps I was not clear -- a cap of a +7 to AC was what I was advocating for, not a cap on skill points.  Sorry if it was misleading.  If you can just code in a maximum AC bonus of +7, I think that works.


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Bad_Bud

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Re: Incoming balance change: Parry AC bonus capping at +5
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2014, 07:03:10 PM »
It is +7 for those with improved two-weapon defense, but it's +5 for those wielding two-handed weapons, or in polymorphed forms, or unarmed.

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Re: Incoming balance change: Parry AC bonus capping at +5
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2014, 07:34:35 PM »
With my char cord he was on the edge of getting +10 from parry.

How? I can't manage to figure out how someone could have 50 parry total unless you cast a bunch of buffs, but even then it seems hard to obtain.

I have a level 9 with +6 (a 30)  but that is with just holding parry items.
Granted, the character has skill focus and improved parry, which ultimately seem feats that don't warrant taking in the long run now. (maybe one but not both)
Cool change though.


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McNastea

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Re: Incoming balance change: Parry AC bonus capping at +5
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2014, 07:44:36 PM »

*There is a high probability that Greater Magic Weapon / Magic Vestment will be capped at +4 in the future, that is why +4 is the reference point.


 :shock:

So now even a lvl 20 character isn't worthy of casting these? I'm wondering how the cumulation of all these changes will impact Sithicus specifically, or rather, any groups ability to realistically tackle it without bringing an entire army and thus negating any benefit from going in the first place. Has anyone put thought in to this? I'm not suggesting making it easier, I don't want that. Just making sure the things the highest level players have to stand up to are taken in to consideration when deciding on things like this. Also, does this mean no more greater magic varnish, or just that they will be the only way to push things to +5?
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Re: Incoming balance change: Parry AC bonus capping at +5
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2014, 07:48:16 PM »

*There is a high probability that Greater Magic Weapon / Magic Vestment will be capped at +4 in the future, that is why +4 is the reference point.


 :shock:

So now even a lvl 20 character isn't worthy of casting these? I'm wondering how the cumulation of all these changes will impact Sithicus specifically, or rather, any groups ability to realistically tackle it without bringing an entire army and thus negating any benefit from going in the first place. Has anyone put thought in to this? I'm not suggesting making it easier, I don't want that. Just making sure the things the highest level players have to stand up to are taken in to consideration when deciding on things like this. Also, does this mean no more greater magic varnish, or just that they will be the only way to push things to +5?

In that case, I imagine Sithicus would be the problem rather than the system when these are put in place.
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Re: Incoming balance change: Parry AC bonus capping at +5
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2014, 07:54:42 PM »
A two-point AC loss isn't that huge, I'd imagine. Any chance Blade Thirst could get a look taken at it?

Also: For people whose characters are altered by these changes, can they request a rebuild or something?

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Re: Incoming balance change: Parry AC bonus capping at +5
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2014, 08:37:05 PM »
A two-point AC loss isn't that huge, I'd imagine. Any chance Blade Thirst could get a look taken at it?

Also: For people whose characters are altered by these changes, can they request a rebuild or something?

I agree.  No problem with the change, but it does change how I would construct a character, so a rebuild opportunity would probably be needed.


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Avatar6666

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Re: Incoming balance change: Parry AC bonus capping at +5
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2014, 08:38:46 PM »
A two-point AC loss isn't that huge, I'd imagine. Any chance Blade Thirst could get a look taken at it?

Also: For people whose characters are altered by these changes, can they request a rebuild or something?

I agree.  No problem with the change, but it does change how I would construct a character, so a rebuild opportunity would probably be needed.

I lost 3 points on my monk so it does matter and 2 points on my rogue....it all adds up.


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Re: Incoming balance change: Parry AC bonus capping at +5
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2014, 09:00:07 PM »
I do agree that while I'm alright with the change, I definitely think remakes should be an option.  I know if I had excess points I'd definitely be a bit annoyed.



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Re: Incoming balance change: Parry AC bonus capping at +5
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2014, 10:38:03 PM »
I'm not too fond of remakes, reason being that if you're level 20 right now you'd want to trade these two feats. However, when you develop your character over levels you pick those feats to attain that number of skill points faster.

Without feats, you would get to +25 normally by level 18 if you have 18 Dex or 17 if you have 20 Dex. With feats you were/are able to get that +25 (without items) at level 8/9.

I'm sure everyone tried to get the most parry at the earliest level and that these feats were not necessarily taken at level 19/20 unless the characters were already very high level when the change was put into place about 2 years ago.

edit: Mind you, after your character would hit 25 I figure you'd not invest in that rank so I could see how moving these skill points to somewhere else would make sense in a remake.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 10:43:15 PM by EO »

Merry Munchkin

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Re: Incoming balance change: Parry AC bonus capping at +5
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2014, 10:40:10 PM »
I do agree that while I'm alright with the change, I definitely think remakes should be an option.  I know if I had excess points I'd definitely be a bit annoyed.

It's not just having excess points.  I took some feats early in my character progression that in hindsight I would not needed to have taken, because I could have just used skill points instead.  My rogue has lots of skill points to spare, but not many feats, so the allocation of feats unnecessarily becomes quite important.


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Merry Munchkin

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Re: Incoming balance change: Parry AC bonus capping at +5
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2014, 10:45:19 PM »
I'm not too fond of remakes, reason being that if you're level 20 right now you'd want to trade these two feats. However, when you develop your character over levels you pick those feats to attain that number of skill points faster.



Not necessarily.  I didn't take certain feats in order to get to a particular parry level faster.  I took certain feats because I assumed I could max out my parry with an uncapped AC bonus.  Since I can no longer do that, I have effectively wasted a feat slot on something I do not need.

Many players do not construct their builds with only a short-term vision in mind; many of us construct our builds with a long-term vision of what it will look like at the end.


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Re: Incoming balance change: Parry AC bonus capping at +5
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2014, 11:05:24 PM »
Not necessarily.  I didn't take certain feats in order to get to a particular parry level faster.  I took certain feats because I assumed I could max out my parry with an uncapped AC bonus.  Since I can no longer do that, I have effectively wasted a feat slot on something I do not need.

Many players do not construct their builds with only a short-term vision in mind; many of us construct our builds with a long-term vision of what it will look like at the end.

Indeed. I wouldn't build for such long term as level 18 personally on this sort of server but it's a way of building. I prefer building in blocks usually myself. In this case, with only two feats involved and with all our bonus feats, I would have invested them to get that AC early. Anyway it's fairly easy to know when people apply for remakes since we can essentially delevel 1-2 levels at a time up to the point where the feats were taken. If they were taken at early levels I would personally not allow the remake to change stats since it's part of the build; if they were taken at later levels I would since in that case the feats were taken to increase parry even more.

McNastea

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Re: Incoming balance change: Parry AC bonus capping at +5
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2014, 02:32:33 AM »
I understand the point you're trying to make, but munchkin is right. My build was a very long term one, but that doesn't exclude you from taking the feats you get the most out of in the short term, and long term, first. I never would have wasted two feats on something that I could have achieved at higher levels without them, because that's exactly that-a waste. Picking those two feats with parry not capped makes sense at early levels, you get extra ac then and in the end. Taking those two feats -at all- with parry capped is short sighted. Anyone who is looking at an end goal would never waste two feats that could be used for something else just to have a little extra ac off the bat that you'd end up with in the end anyway. I don't think the mentality that you did this under these rules, so you would have done this under completely different ones, is fair. I do believe that given this change has been made, that does affect some peoples characters pretty drastically, there should be some leniency in approving remakes.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 04:27:27 AM by McNastea »
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Re: Incoming balance change: Parry AC bonus capping at +5
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2014, 06:37:39 AM »
It is +5 because 25 parry with improved two weapon defense yields +7 AC, which is equivalent to the AC bonus of a +4 tower shield*. It seems like the most direct way to keep one style from being obsolete to the other, and to prevent the massive parry bonuses provided by elemental shape forms and some shapechange forms.

*There is a high probability that Greater Magic Weapon / Magic Vestment will be capped at +4 in the future, that is why +4 is the reference point.

I would wait on requesting rebuilds until sometime next year, during a hak update, when many things will be added.
At the moment, Dex build are still able to have more AC than Full Plate with Shield (Why the armors provide more Dex bonus than they usually do?), considering their Damage output is (like it should be) higher, they are still best choice.

While I might agree on the +4 Cap for several reasons, and I see how low the impact it will be, this would hit even more the mono-class chars, bi-classes are becoming even more the best choice.

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Re: Incoming balance change: Parry AC bonus capping at +5
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2014, 07:46:19 AM »
I understand the point you're trying to make, but munchkin is right. My build was a very long term one, but that doesn't exclude you from taking the feats you get the most out of in the short term, and long term, first. I never would have wasted two feats on something that I could have achieved at higher levels without them, because that's exactly that-a waste. Picking those two feats with parry not capped makes sense at early levels, you get extra ac then and in the end. Taking those two feats -at all- with parry capped is short sighted. Anyone who is looking at an end goal would never waste two feats that could be used for something else just to have a little extra ac off the bat that you'd end up with in the end anyway. I don't think the mentality that you did this under these rules, so you would have done this under completely different ones, is fair. I do believe that given this change has been made, that does affect some peoples characters pretty drastically, there should be some leniency in approving remakes.

I think this is spot on.  The maximum number of skill points anyone can put into any skill is 23 by level 20, and people take feats like skill focus in order to exceed that, not to get skill points early.  For example, I took improved parry right out of the starting gate because it made sense under uncapped rules - I was going to take it eventually anyway in order to exceed the limit of 23.  Taking it early had a side benefit of giving me additional AC early on, but that was certainly not the primary purpose.  If I was to build a first level rogue character from scratch now, there is no way I would take improved parry or skill focus in parry -- there is no purpose for these feats because they provide zero benefits.

Incidentally, this is one of the reasons I suggested you might want to consider changing that AC cap from +5 to +7, because that would eliminate the need to do any rebuilds -- the feats improved parry and skill focus (parry) would still have a purpose and value, so no one would need to change their builds.


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Re: Incoming balance change: Parry AC bonus capping at +5
« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2014, 11:31:17 AM »
Incidentally, this is one of the reasons I suggested you might want to consider changing that AC cap from +5 to +7, because that would eliminate the need to do any rebuilds -- the feats improved parry and skill focus (parry) would still have a purpose and value, so no one would need to change their builds.

Actually I'm starting to think that this would make more sense as well.  I took my feats early as well and while I suppose it's not a huge set back, I do have to admit I agree with McNastea that given the option under these new rules, I never would have done it this way.  I'd have preferred to just use however many skill points I needed, then spend my feats on things that are almost certainly much more valuable.



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Re: Incoming balance change: Parry AC bonus capping at +5
« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2014, 12:08:23 PM »
Sit tight. I don't know if there will be general rebuilds, but I know now is not a good time. Considering the higher end of parry characters were achieving was +8 (without two-weapon defense), limiting it to +7 is hardly a reform.

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Re: Incoming balance change: Parry AC bonus capping at +5
« Reply #47 on: December 04, 2014, 03:07:26 PM »
It is bad bud when you have a lot of feats and points tied up into parry and it suddenly changes. So I can see the point about a rebuild.


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Re: Incoming balance change: Parry AC bonus capping at +5
« Reply #48 on: December 04, 2014, 08:20:03 PM »
Sit tight. I don't know if there will be general rebuilds, but I know now is not a good time. Considering the higher end of parry characters were achieving was +8 (without two-weapon defense), limiting it to +7 is hardly a reform.

I don't have a problem with the change, and I also don't have a problem with picking +5 versus any other number.  However, I do have a concern with the fact that this change fundamentally changes the math of how you build a character, and at least some players (based on the comments here) have taken a build path that burned up valuable feats which in retrospect now have no purpose or benefit.  I don't mind you guys running a short term test to see how the change works (I am used to being a test guinea pig in things like this), but if this is going to end up being a permanent change, I believe the only fair thing to do at the end of the test period is to allow people to rebuild their characters, which would reflect what they would have actually done had these rules been in place at the time they first made their characters.

Alternatively, you might consider another option that would also not require any rebuilds:  instead of giving an AC bonus every +5 parry levels, give the same AC bonus at +6 parry levels, and don't put a cap on the AC bonus achievable.  By increasing the interval, you effectively reduce the AC bonus without killing off the utility of improved parry or skill focus (parry).  To use the example of a +8 to AC (which seems to be a concern), it currently takes a skill of 40 to get an AC bonus of +8, but that same skill level at the new intervals would give only a +6 to AC.

Given my previous note that a standard, naked, unbuffed max-DEX build could get as high as skill level 37 (23 points, +7 DEX, +4 improved parry, and +3 skill focus), for a total AC bonus of +6 without any gear or anything, I think you are at least approximating your desire for an AC cap near the +5 range, without needing to have anyone change their builds.  If this interval isn't big enough to alleviate your concerns about AC bonuses being too high, you could change the interval to every +7 points of parry. This would change the maxed out naked build in my example to a mere +5 AC (and you would have to somehow pump up your skill points to 56 or higher to get the worrisome +8 AC bonus you reference).


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Re: Incoming balance change: Parry AC bonus capping at +5
« Reply #49 on: December 04, 2014, 10:05:31 PM »
I don't decide when rebuilds are allowed, but they have been allowed in the past. There are updates coming to a number of classes. If there is going to be any rebuild, I imagine it will come after those updates. But not now, and then again in a couple of months.