Author Topic: Server Economy  (Read 20938 times)

Dumas

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Re: Server Economy
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2014, 09:45:14 PM »
The thing is, with almost any sort of computer game, is that gold, while hard to get ahold of in the beginning, will eventually (usually) become irrelevant at the end. Pretty much every single game that I've played has that as the case. I could have bought a castle in Baldur's Gate, Skyrim (well, I guess you kinda do in those), The Witcher, Dragon Age, vanilla NWN... and nearly every single NWN1 and NWN2 server I've played on once I get past mid levels.

Players will naturally seek out the ways to gather the most coin. Why aren't we keeping a more standardized amount? More similar to NPCs? Well... we don't do any of the things NPCs do. We don't have to buy or rent or pay taxes on housing, we don't pay tithes to burgomeisters or similar, we don't have to pay for food (well, we should, but you never actually have to eat anything to stay alive).

As long as players don't have required things like that, we will have characters hauling around mountains of gold. But this game can only get to a certain level of complexity. so I think we kinda have to accept that. Personally, I haven't found it to be a problem that hampers my RP. My main character is not rich, and often hovers around 3-8 thousand coin, and he's a rouge to boot. I've seen fighters as rich as kings, same as druids. I've also seen poor wizards. It's less about the character, and more about the player, I think, when it comes to gathering huge amounts. I'm not saying that's necessarily wrong though.

However, players could be encouraged to find more uses for their money. Consider hiring others to do work, be it a grand scheme, or more mundane. Try to start a player organization, and use the coin to fund it... the more things there are to spend money on, perhaps the less inclined players would be to stockpile gold.

Still, like I said, with any game, you will get to having players that like to gather as much gold as possible. It's just a fact of a large gaming community. And it's not inherently "bad"... that's just the way it is.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 09:52:31 PM by Dumas »

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Re: Server Economy
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2014, 09:55:14 PM »
Now isn't that a great point.

We never have to actually eat anything to stay alive.

pardon the expression, food for thought. heh.
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Re: Server Economy
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2014, 09:58:03 PM »
I kinda agree with functor's overall view; I think the fundamental problem is that any solution that would try to penalise high levels will come out as OOC-motivated and unauthentic; whereas anyone that penalises everyone equally will always hurt low-levels more than high-levels.
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Re: Server Economy
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2014, 10:35:22 PM »
Yeah I am alright with bank taxes but a tax literally imposed simply on the amount of gold you have doesn't seem right.  If anything I would be less likely to part with my gold and simply roll with the setbacks of that.

I personally don't see an issue with the way things are now, but I wouldn't be adverse to some of the other changes. 



Paragonville

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Re: Server Economy
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2014, 11:38:36 PM »
Just have Strahd be a douche every once in a while and send Crimson Hounds to take a cut of outlander money.

After all, they should have to pay something to their overlord just like every other Barovian!

Ranjere

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Re: Server Economy
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2014, 11:47:51 PM »
Reverse Philosopher's Stone. A literal goldsink.
Alchemical crafting result. Melt gold down into its basic essence, and recompose it into the physical embodiment of property-transfer.
The Stone can then be used by each of the non-alchemy crafts to create a long duration, multi-use consumable item relevant to that craft. (by spending more money)

Herbalists make can use the stone to create a version of one of their potions with more powerful, longer lasting effectss, and multiple drafts in a bottle, smiths can use it to make, Idk, a powerful weapon-enhancing whetstone.

It doesn't have to be overpowered, just worth a decent investment of money.

Merry Munchkin

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Re: Server Economy
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2014, 12:48:04 AM »
Hello,

I have an impression that any sort of restrictions outlined in the starting post will not change the situation in the long run. Besides the fact that, obviously, wealth is produced and accumulated, we also have some additional aspects like continuous emission of Fang with the almost invisible inflation, and other factors... I wonder if anyone modelled what a MMORPG-economy is like mathematically and what happens in the infinite time limit...

Why not introduce a (progressive) wealth tax system? And, as well, taxing of the businesses (say, traders in the outskirts)? The money collected by the system or (N)PCs would then be effectively given 'to the state', disappearing from the playerbase's hands. With careful plan-out, I suppose that the wealth level of even the richest PCs would become far closer to what they can obtain through a few dungeon runs for their level.

I understand that some would not want to pay taxes. This would give some RP-chances like hidden gold stashes or even 'offshores'... And I by no means suggest developers have time to do something like that!..


In a real life economy, the amount of money in circulation (whether it is hard coinage, or fiat paper money) is finite -- the Federal Reserve increases or decreases the amount of money in circulation in order to control inflation.  When money is scarce, they print more, and when money is in surplus (and driving up prices as a result) they pull some out of circulation.

In a game economy, however, there is no equivalent to the Federal Reserve -- the game just keeps generating more and more loot, infinitely.  One way to control for this is to have the loot drops start taking into account the total amount of gp held by the playerbase, and start generating less loot, unless more gold is paid back into the system by the playerbase.

The second prong of the system necessitates some mechanism by which players have to pay gold back into the system, and it should be relatively progressive so as not to penalize lowbies that don't have big bankrolls.  When I was doing PnP long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away, we imposed a basic set of living expenses on players -- every month, a certain amount of gold was deducted to represent their typical expenditures in a character's lifestyle.  We theorized that most adventurers live relatively high on the hog when they are flush with cash (it is the nature of swashbuckling adventure, after all), and we also theorized that the more powerful and renowned you were (i.e. higher level), the greater your attendant expenses would be -- this mirrors real life, when as you accumulate wealth, your tastes in cars, clothes, food, etc. tend to improve and get more expensive.

As a consequence, you could create a nominal deduction from everyone's gold reserve every game "month" (or however you want to set the recurring event), and base it on character level -- for example, you could say it costs 100 gp per level per month (just a hypothetical formula, by the way).

This would accomplish the goal of reducing the aggregate amount of gp in circulation, and provide an ongoing incentive to go out and adventure.

The only other alternative is to have more things that players will want to buy -- stuff like healing for example.  Instead of healing being free at the temples, the priests could charge for the service.  For example, the priest could cast cure light, cure moderate, cure serious, and cure critical as menu choices, and charge a player increasing prices for the stronger heals (sufficiently high, of course, to make the market in crafted potions more desirable).  Equipment repairs at blacksmiths could also be an purchasing option.  While I realize that this potentially detracts from player-to-player exchanges, having players exchange gold among themselves does not actually reduce the amount of gold in circulation and therefore does not reduce inflation.  You need to take gold out of the system permanently, in order to balance the fact that the system constantly generates an infinite flow of replacement loot.


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Merry Munchkin

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Re: Server Economy
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2014, 01:06:21 AM »
Ok here's an idea. It goes back to my original comment.

What if player run factions cease to get assistance from DM's or NPC's? I am not sure if that's how it really works, but let me elaborate. Zidonne has sponsored a few lowbie factions now, giving them between 10k and 50k in both gold and items to get them on their feet and stable. Sometimes they come back to him for a little more help and usually this is great rp. What if it becomes a requirement to get your help from people with money?

eh?


While this would accomplish a redistribution of gold from player to player, it does not reduce the overall amount of gold in circulation in the system, which is really the driver of inflation in any economy.  While this helps reduce the buying power of a few extremely wealthy characters, the redistribution won't accomplish the overall goal of taking gold permanently out of the system.  Having players actually spend their accumulated wealth back into the game itself, either on consumption goods or via taxation, is the only way to premanently take gold out of a system. 

The corollary to this is that the amount of replacement loot being created also needs to be balanced so that it does not simply overwhelm the mechanisms for taking gold out of the system.

In effect, this means that dungeons should be less generous about generating loot.  Even low level areas tend to spam a lot of trinkets, which in aggregate can add up to quite a lot.  The trick would be to make sure that lowbies still have the ability to earn sufficient gold to make sure they can get decent equipment and heals.


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Re: Server Economy
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2014, 01:37:26 AM »
In effect, this means that dungeons should be less generous about generating loot.  Even low level areas tend to spam a lot of trinkets, which in aggregate can add up to quite a lot.  The trick would be to make sure that lowbies still have the ability to earn sufficient gold to make sure they can get decent equipment and heals.
I don't think this would work. This is just going to penalise people who don't dungeon a lot, because power-players will just crawl more dungeons that they usually wouldn't - maybe solo-ing ones below their level, further putting pressure on lowbies. It'll also put people off from adventuring in parties because their split will get cut down further.

I haven't been here long but I'm honestly not seeing a problem with it as it is, although the idea of gold-sinks is great. If there was some way I could drop 10k on a personalised item that does absolutely nothing, or to repair a building or a road, or even something that could be made mechanical, like hiring an orphan to deliver me the olde newspaper every morning, I so would.

chuuch1

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Re: Server Economy
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2014, 02:33:15 AM »
I think things are fine the way they are.

Honestly, it isn't even that hard to make money.  There are just a few things ya need.  First is, you need to have a group that is on the same page.  Have one or two people collect everything they possibly can in a dungeon.  Second, have the person with the best appraise sell the goods for the best prices (Also turn in any bounty items you have found).  Might even be worth the time to travel to a different merchant that pays more.  Then split the gold evenly among your group.  If you use this system in every dungeon ya go into, it's pretty easy for everyone involved to make good coin.  I remember pulling out 7k from the Morninglord temple and selling to Petre one time.

Often times I've seen groups where it's just a free for all, everyone grabbing loot and keeping it for themselves and no splitting at the end.  This is why ya need to set some ground rules before ya go out on a quest and make sure everyone is on the same page.  Any good items you find can then be layed out for the group to choose from.  Can figure out your own system for who gets what.  Generally, we roll for first second third etc pick, works out fine.  

When my character was a low level, I remember some of the best things I got were from player shops set up in the outskirts.  So when my guy was capable, i started doing the same.  Sometimes myself and another would set up shop in the outskirts and it'd be a frenzy and we'd sell a ton of items and make a ton of gold.  Plus it was fun to play merchant, everyone involved wins!  I wish I could do it more in the outskirts but cetain Rp restrictions keep him from selling in the outskirts now :(
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 02:34:47 AM by chuuch1 »

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Re: Server Economy
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2014, 03:43:48 AM »
One consideration we should always have in mind here is that relying more on gold and offering more ways to spend gold (particularly if it gains you significant advantages) will only encourage farming (as Ophis already pointed out). For the same reason, there'll always be individuals that - perhaps for sport or just as passing time - manage to accumulate massive sums of gold. If that's how they prefer to spend their time, that's perfectly fine too, but we shouldn't balance ourselves toward that type of play. We did some more systematic measuring a few years ago and it showed that most people actually didn't have these huge sums of gold, but it was just a minority that experienced having more than they could use.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 05:53:21 AM by Zarathustra217 »

Arael

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Re: Server Economy
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2014, 04:02:04 AM »
I always found having great sum of gold completely useless, but by grinding or just having normal play you will get them.

The only reason you have to stock huge amounts are for the auctions (I remember that cloak of silence went for 1.100.000 to a popular char, consider how the ninja-looting items are the most valuable/wanted).

I spend my gold on consumables, but there aren't really many items on sale of what you might need to buy. I see many people taking rogue levels for UMD, this way they can buy/use magic scrolls (yes time-stop too for ninja-looting). More consumables which don't require UMD could be added.

How to dump all those gold around? There are few options that wouldn't change heavily the economy.

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Re: Server Economy
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2014, 04:16:08 AM »
It is hugely impacted by the class you are playing, I think. For example, clerics spend less on potions and will sell most consumables. Similarly for other casters, where gear does help, but is not as vital as it is to a rogue. Rogues are made and broken by their gear or lack thereof. They amass potions and consumables (perhaps less so if they are a multiclass caster) to be more effective. Ninja looting is hard too! Failing a single check (and there can be upwards of fifty depending on where you are) will break stealth, so investment in invis is crucial if you want to be effective. I have one character who can ninja some areas, and it is always something you need to do slowly and carefully. Something I have found helpful in the past is to have a 'ninja buddy' who is usually a caster to help in a pinch.

The Hide/MS gear always goes for a high price too, so you have to be successful to afford gear to become even more successful.

I am not saying any of this is bad, only that different classes bring different financial demands. Some from an RP standpoint may also choose a more ascetic way of life, such as some clerics, paladins, monks, rangers or Druids, should it fall in line with their beliefs.

I am all for more player shops, however! Great generators of roleplaying. The system is not broken, a lot simply reflects time spent.

Edit: Race also has an impact! Outcast races mostly cannot take on occupations or run warehouse jobs, so more creative thinking there too! XD
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 04:39:26 AM by emptyanima »

functor

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Re: Server Economy
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2014, 08:15:42 AM »
Hi,

In a real life economy, the amount of money in circulation (whether it is hard coinage, or fiat paper money) is finite -- the Federal Reserve increases or decreases the amount of money in circulation in order to control inflation.  When money is scarce, they print more, and when money is in surplus (and driving up prices as a result) they pull some out of circulation.

In a game economy, however, there is no equivalent to the Federal Reserve -- the game just keeps generating more and more loot, infinitely.  One way to control for this is to have the loot drops start taking into account the total amount of gp held by the playerbase, and start generating less loot, unless more gold is paid back into the system by the playerbase.

I would say that there's an implicit point in this analogy, which is that you can always convert loot (which is technically goods, not always gold) to gold with more or less fixed rate (with enough Appraise, Petre will buy those plate boots for 50 Fang any day of the year). But the difference is still here. In any case, I think that loot restrictions based on wealth held by PCs is very-very hard to justify RP-wise and would have a lot of consequences, like should the monsters drop relatively pricy items then (looting Skeletal Knights was usually one of the major income sources for me in crypts)? And the main consequence is still the fixation of the current inequality: it will be hard (especially for the new PCs) to make a coin, but those with wealth will retain it, sit on and have their inequality supported by doing nothing. Somebody might start a 'share the wealth' revolution though...

The second prong of the system necessitates some mechanism by which players have to pay gold back into the system, and it should be relatively progressive so as not to penalize lowbies that don't have big bankrolls.  When I was doing PnP long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away, we imposed a basic set of living expenses on players -- every month, a certain amount of gold was deducted to represent their typical expenditures in a character's lifestyle.  We theorized that most adventurers live relatively high on the hog when they are flush with cash (it is the nature of swashbuckling adventure, after all), and we also theorized that the more powerful and renowned you were (i.e. higher level), the greater your attendant expenses would be -- this mirrors real life, when as you accumulate wealth, your tastes in cars, clothes, food, etc. tend to improve and get more expensive.

As a consequence, you could create a nominal deduction from everyone's gold reserve every game "month" (or however you want to set the recurring event), and base it on character level -- for example, you could say it costs 100 gp per level per month (just a hypothetical formula, by the way).

This would accomplish the goal of reducing the aggregate amount of gp in circulation, and provide an ongoing incentive to go out and adventure.

That's, at least purely technically, one of the versions of wealth taxing. However "your tastes in cars, clothes, food, etc. tend to improve and get more expensive" this actually has consequences IRL: you get expensive cars, clothes, food, if it's not backed up by actual content (and I think it already is when it comes to e.g. enchant) then it seems to me much less justified RP-wise. Moreso,  IRL the rich people don't lose their wealth gradually by conspicuous consumption. At the same time, they usually keep becoming richer.

And yes, as some warned, I think that as a result some high-levels might start grinding in some 'standard' PoTM dungeons, breaking the experience for lowbies there.

The only other alternative is to have more things that players will want to buy -- stuff like healing for example.  Instead of healing being free at the temples, the priests could charge for the service.  For example, the priest could cast cure light, cure moderate, cure serious, and cure critical as menu choices, and charge a player increasing prices for the stronger heals (sufficiently high, of course, to make the market in crafted potions more desirable).  Equipment repairs at blacksmiths could also be an purchasing option.  While I realize that this potentially detracts from player-to-player exchanges, having players exchange gold among themselves does not actually reduce the amount of gold in circulation and therefore does not reduce inflation.  You need to take gold out of the system permanently, in order to balance the fact that the system constantly generates an infinite flow of replacement loot.

Inflation, which is "a sustained increase in the general price level of goods and services in an economy over a period of time", is already reduced to 0, you probably meant "emission with zero rate inflation" :).

I think the current situation can be described as "Some are rich, but you can get rich too, provided you do something". Grind effect, which can follow e.g. wealth tax, will penalise power-less characters, and lowbies are in this category. Any 'realistic' inventions will penalise the poor, to which lowbies belong as well. If it is supposed that PoTM should be a bearable experience for the lowbies, we have not yet invented a method other than the current one for things to work.


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Re: Server Economy
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2014, 08:35:39 AM »
Try being a Private in the Vallaki Garda, being paid 5 fang per in game day, to a maximun of 14 days accumulated, for a mere total of 70 fangs per reallife day, if you log everyday, if you stay absent for one week you will still get the same 70 fangs. The Garda does not raid tombs, the Garda does not go out fight bosses and steal their treasures. The Garda needs love, as a petty Officer of the Garda my character earns some 6-7 fangs per in game day, this is absurd, giving what we have to fight and what we are outfitted with. Even though I'm saying this, whining, I accept this trade of for having the power of imprisoning people and raping them in the dungeon, but I think, the Garda needs a raise. I just highjacked this topic, somewhat, but it's still about economics, a tad bit.

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Re: Server Economy
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2014, 09:16:51 AM »
The more I think about it, the more the solution is clear to me. the system isn't broken. I think it's higher level characters who have the most gold, and I stand by my personal feeling that it is my job as a rich sob to sponsor the new, the young, the lowbies. And it generates rp. Selling junk loot is not always profitable, unless you figured out the best system, which I thin i have. But loot that is player wanted should not be junked in m opinion, and i try to be available to buy and resell these items. Vardo also does a good job with this.
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Re: Server Economy
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2014, 09:30:38 AM »
Try being a Private in the Vallaki Garda, being paid 5 fang per in game day, to a maximun of 14 days accumulated, for a mere total of 70 fangs per reallife day, if you log everyday, if you stay absent for one week you will still get the same 70 fangs. The Garda does not raid tombs, the Garda does not go out fight bosses and steal their treasures. The Garda needs love, as a petty Officer of the Garda my character earns some 6-7 fangs per in game day, this is absurd, giving what we have to fight and what we are outfitted with. Even though I'm saying this, whining, I accept this trade of for having the power of imprisoning people and raping them in the dungeon, but I think, the Garda needs a raise. I just highjacked this topic, somewhat, but it's still about economics, a tad bit.

Off: I suppose "raping" was meant figuratively (well, server rules), but even this way it might not be the appropriate thing for the discussion.

On topic: I think the pay rise for the Garda is an IC-question, system-unrelated. Like they could stage a strike or something. With all the consequences from the higher-ups.

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Re: Server Economy
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2014, 09:38:35 AM »
Related: yes, economists are involved in studying such matters! http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/09/28/the-economics-of-video-games/

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Re: Server Economy
« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2014, 10:06:35 AM »
No, it is not an IC matter, it is an OOC matter of balance that needs to be looked.  We have a bunch of people that are very rich, to the point of not knowing what to do with their coins, feeling uncertain if they are supposed to amass that much, through whatever means they might have used, and then, we get people that are paid 70 fangs per real life day. Naturally, the guard PCs can have extra activities, like crafting, but that means using the time that could had been used to actually roleplay being a guard, instead of spending that time chopping wood, mining, and struggling to improve the craft. It's quite simple, a raise, a small one, I'm not asking to get 1k for day.

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Re: Server Economy
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2014, 10:13:41 AM »
No, it is not an IC matter, it is an OOC matter of balance that needs to be looked.  We have a bunch of people that are very rich, to the point of not knowing what to do with their coins, feeling uncertain if they are supposed to amass that much, through whatever means they might have used, and then, we get people that are paid 70 fangs per real life day. Naturally, the guard PCs can have extra activities, like crafting, but that means using the time that could had been used to actually roleplay being a guard, instead of spending that time chopping wood, mining, and struggling to improve the craft. It's quite simple, a raise, a small one, I'm not asking to get 1k for day.

It's an IC matter; a guard in a shoddy downtrodden village in rural Barovia shouldn't earn a fortune. An adventurer that pillages tombs in Har'Akir and slays dragons should definitely be richer.

As for gold, it's worthless once you get a certain amount of it. It only really matters in the player to player economy but even then it's more symbolic than anything past a certain point. In DM to player interactions I don't think gold should amount to much since it rewards people who grind and farm as mentioned by others. I used to have a merchant, one of the first on the server, and when I sold items the gold was a pretext but the RP generated was the interesting part, especially when she gave loans and repaid herself.

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Re: Server Economy
« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2014, 10:21:07 AM »
Purist, there's not that many people who are that rich, and the people who are are either player merchants or in dungeons all the time. Even if you nerf dungeon loot, that balance won't change. The people doing things that lets them get gold will always get more gold than people who do not do things to get gold. And like others have said, the rich players tend to use the money to sponsor lower levels or poor players. It's not as bleak of a situation as you make it to be.

There are mundane ways in which guards could earn more coin, like doing deliveries. If you take up a trade-skill, there are trade skill quests you could fill for money too. Taking up a trade skill would also let you make your own armour. And yes, I know trades are expensive, I've done them. But there are guards who have done them, for the betterment of their faction.

Edit:
I used to have a merchant, one of the first on the server, and when I sold items the gold was a pretext but the RP generated was the interesting part, especially when she gave loans and repaid herself.
Yeah, there's actually a good dynamic behind how gold is exchanged.

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Re: Server Economy
« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2014, 10:39:52 AM »
Purist, there's not that many people who are that rich, and the people who are are either player merchants or in dungeons all the time. Even if you nerf dungeon loot, that balance won't change. The people doing things that lets them get gold will always get more gold than people who do not do things to get gold. And like others have said, the rich players tend to use the money to sponsor lower levels or poor players. It's not as bleak of a situation as you make it to be.

There are mundane ways in which guards could earn more coin, like doing deliveries. If you take up a trade-skill, there are trade skill quests you could fill for money too. Taking up a trade skill would also let you make your own armour. And yes, I know trades are expensive, I've done them. But there are guards who have done them, for the betterment of their faction.

Edit:
I used to have a merchant, one of the first on the server, and when I sold items the gold was a pretext but the RP generated was the interesting part, especially when she gave loans and repaid herself.
Yeah, there's actually a good dynamic behind how gold is exchanged.

I will say with the garda I have...er... well recruite I have he has like...3k and he made it all from deliveries. started small like fishing lodge and back.. once i got gold I was able to do the lodge and back, then streight into Dwarfs and back again. Its not really hard at all to do such if A: you want to since garda are not on duty 24/7 and B: know how to get it done quick.

While the gold was not acumulated real quick at first once i was able to buy a ox and begin doing it that way, i could run and speed things up if i wanted to taking the boat to make it even faster...Its really not difficult for a garda to make money. 'ells if you want gold on a garda i'm shocked you don't Fine err.. "Tax" people for things.

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Re: Server Economy
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2014, 10:44:44 AM »
Try being a Private in the Vallaki Garda, being paid 5 fang per in game day, to a maximun of 14 days accumulated, for a mere total of 70 fangs per reallife day, if you log everyday, if you stay absent for one week you will still get the same 70 fangs. The Garda does not raid tombs, the Garda does not go out fight bosses and steal their treasures. The Garda needs love, as a petty Officer of the Garda my character earns some 6-7 fangs per in game day, this is absurd, giving what we have to fight and what we are outfitted with. Even though I'm saying this, whining, I accept this trade of for having the power of imprisoning people and raping them in the dungeon, but I think, the Garda needs a raise. I just highjacked this topic, somewhat, but it's still about economics, a tad bit.

Don't make inappropriate rape comments. I get what you're trying to say there, but, I would have got it without the rape comment. Considering the serious nature of rape, that there are survivors of rape, and just in general rape being a terrible thing, we didn't need to go there. In the future, please refrain from making general statements about rape. If you wish to talk about this further, you are welcome to send me a PM.

Sorry for any disruption to the conversation and it is not meant as a public humiliation for Purist here but talk of rape in any sort of light way is against our forum and servers rules and policies and I think it would be a good reminder for others, not just Purist, to know that.

(Also, do not respond to this post or about this topic, continue the nice discussion about server economy)

de_reguer

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Re: Server Economy
« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2014, 10:45:53 AM »
The problem with gold sinks, especially recurring fees, is people will specifically go out to grind gold for them if it's something desirable enough.

How about direct travel from Visanti Caravan Hubs instead of having to walk everywhere. Make it a 1000 gold expenditure per trip. I'm not saying make it so that you can instantly port to the front of any cave entrance anywhere on the server, but if someone's in the western Outskirts and wants to be ported to VOB they why not let them if their willing to spend 1000 gold for it? That's one idea right there for a decent gold sink.

Past a certain level players aren't grinding for gold so much as their grinding for rare or unique items or hard to acquire varnish components or just plain EXP. I'm not saying adding something like this would discourage grinding per se' but I don't see it as necessarily contributing more to it either. Past a certain level money becomes meaningless specifically because your characters tend to be fully kitted, and have ample stocks of things like potions, varnishes, and scrolls. If you want to soak up some of those massive piles of gold sitting in players bank accounts then give them something to actually spend it on they would consider worthwhile. With Europa I've skipped numerous payouts after an adventure because I was tired or whatever and she still has about 400k in the bank. What's more  I wouldn't be surprised if she's one of the poorer high level characters on the server.

Most players don't even spend that much gold on enchanting since most mages will do it to be friendly or to practice the skill. Rarely they might require the actual essence from a player, but again that's rare or hard to acquire items and not gold.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 10:52:40 AM by de_reguer »

Tycat

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Re: Server Economy
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2014, 10:58:33 AM »
Purist, there's not that many people who are that rich, and the people who are are either player merchants or in dungeons all the time. Even if you nerf dungeon loot, that balance won't change. The people doing things that lets them get gold will always get more gold than people who do not do things to get gold. And like others have said, the rich players tend to use the money to sponsor lower levels or poor players. It's not as bleak of a situation as you make it to be.

There are mundane ways in which guards could earn more coin, like doing deliveries. If you take up a trade-skill, there are trade skill quests you could fill for money too. Taking up a trade skill would also let you make your own armour. And yes, I know trades are expensive, I've done them. But there are guards who have done them, for the betterment of their faction.

Edit:
I used to have a merchant, one of the first on the server, and when I sold items the gold was a pretext but the RP generated was the interesting part, especially when she gave loans and repaid herself.
Yeah, there's actually a good dynamic behind how gold is exchanged.

This exactly. For example, my richest character started making his fortune around level 10, when all his "expenses" were satisfied. He has a high appraise and Cha and makes money very easily, and no, I am not in dungeons all the time. A lot of that money was made on stage emoting songs at people. But he's a celebrity, he should be rich. My second richest character is a rogue with high appraise. But i mean richest as in he has no bank account, and maybe between 10-30k at all times. Everyone else struggles. My mid level ranger has a hard time making enough gold to give to two other pc's as well as himself, relies on consumables such as potions and arrows, and while he is for the most part self sufficient, he has a lot of expenses and not a lot of income. This is just the dynamic of the character, but a testament that not all higher level characters are rich.

If you want to fix the economy, open player run shops, sell your loot to players for less than NPC sale prices, but more than NPC Buy prices. Your stuff will be desirable and sell nicely. Sometimes you wont get the sale, and when this happens i usually ditch the inventory after a week or so and refresh with new things. Why not? This really directly impacts the economy. I have several characters who will try to intercept gem sales because they will pay for them nicely too. Like Diamonds really sell well to clerics who don't want to pay npc prices for them. A lot of people know my character buys Emeralds. Why emeralds? Because he can and wants to! Lots of opportunities for the economy to grow, so long as we stop relying on npc merchants, and start relying on each other more. I really think this will directly impact what we have.
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